Jerry Louis Nemnich Identified as Suspect in Colorado Murders

• Glenn, You spoke the words I can only echo, and did so beautifully. Thank you.

• -1TK, I'm sorry for not introducing myself properly before. Yes, Linda Miracle was my big sister. And Yes Troy and Chad my very loved and very remembered nephews. Linda and I was raised by our Dad and step Mom from the ages of 4 and 3 so she and I were very close. I thought She'd always be here for me and I thought I would always be there for her. I pray that she forgave my shortcomings. I've always known she would but I've also wanted to hear it from her and for her to hear one more time how important she is to me. We also had/have Three more sisters and Three more brothers, PLUS two step brothers and one step sister. All of whom Loved and treasured Linda, Troy, and Chad. We all still do and treasure each and every wonderful memory. I pray and sincerly hope that at times like these, others are reminded that memories are the best rewards. And that they spend the extra time building strong happy memories with those around them. Beautiful memories can NEVER be stolen.

• Glenn, I'm sorry for not knowong who you were before. Linda Miracle was your sister? The little boys your nephews? I have not forgotten them. They matterd. They have not been forgotten ... The boys are not forgotten.

• I cannot feel justified when there are still two little boys who never had a voice. They have been all but forgotten. I have not forgotten them. If there is an answer in what you seek, I can only pray you will find it. And thank you RG... We are.!

• T.K.,Barbara,and your entire Families, I sincerely pray that for all of you this is finally over and for the lack of appropriate words, because I do not believe there are words that can express what you need to hear,I pray that with Gods help and guidance you can find a way to begin to heal.May your days start to bring closier, and some ray of sunshine, and may this tragedy not be in vain. Those beautiful lives need to be remembered forever. In sharing Gods love,

• TK, You and I know that with closure comes the ability to set aside the bad and focus on the good in our lives. Once again memories of our sisters, your niece, and my nephews can be of the love shared, their beauty, laughter and goodness. Go well in God's will.

• ..." the ending always comes at last.. endings always come too fast.. but the past too slow..." To the Bothams,I appreciate your convictions. NO one is served by an injustice. You are in my thoughts and prayers. I honestly hope you find the answeres you seek. GOD BLESS.

• Doug, First,and most important,T.K. thank you for a beautiful and as can be read a very sincere post. I know you and your entire family have been to hell and back with all of this, so all WE can offer is our heart felt prayers, knowing full well the pain we suffer for these dear ones is NOTHING compared to what you and your family have felt. It really makes me feel very hopeless, but with God's help and your strength, you will endure over this horible chain of events. To you Doug,I promised early on that I would say nothing on these posts that would in any way make this family's pain any worse or in any way would I say anything that might serve negitive towards the trial on behalf of anyone, and in keeping this promise I agree the conversation has lent favor to the Botham case,but keep in mind, the many horrific crimes of that summer was not resolved by putting Botham away.The justice(quote) to Botham may or may not have been appropriate(I don't believe it was) but there needed to be resolve on the many other cases as well, and that regetably hasn't been accomplished, and must include a rethink of the Botham case. As to whether it was wise to put Nimnich on the stand,that was a decision by he and his attorney's and I hold coments for a later time on that. However, hopefully this nightmare may be coming to a conclusion for this very brave and courageous family, and to all of YOU our prayers go out to you.

• To all whom have contributed to this blog designed to discuss Botham-Miracle, thanks for your thoughts. I believe in people and goodness with the assistance of God. RG- on 9-24-10 you related that this blog had not strayed from Jerry Nemnich. I don't know what prompted you to say that, but you surely read the Blog's introduction alluding to Nemnich's arrest leading to that homicide and others. From that point on this Blog's entire mission has been Botham-Miracle by design. Mr. Nemnich's taking the witness stand was ill advised per his legal council in which he admits his blood was in the crime scene at the time of the murders. Now this latter is deffinetly about Mr. Nemnich.

• Truth... I've wonderd these long years, what it must have been like for those who's job it was to find her.. and known how she would have hated that... to find her like that. What her fight must have been like .. to save her life and her baby. The desperation she felt.. facing him, loosing her life in the end of those minuts and ? hours? I've agonized over not being there with her. I could have helped her somehow. I should have been there. I should have done something. I should have been there for her.. she had always been there for me. Thirty five years later, or eternity, we are left behind to be haunted by the endless self doubts.. And after all the years of the dreams that shake you and wake you crying in your sleep.. One day you look back and realize you raised your own babies like that.. in the shadow of the fear . Maybe you would be as blessed as I was.. when I realized it, and I faced my own babies, grown, and told them I was sorry I had done that to them, and they grabbed me with a long deep hug and told me " WE KNOW MOM.. WE HAVE WAITED FOR YOU.. WE DONT KNOW WHAT THAT WAS LIKE FOR YOU, BUT WE ARE HERE FOR YOU NOW.." That is my sister living. THAT IS MY SISTER LIVING.

• To Doug, THANK YOU. Yours is the first post I have seen on here that spoke to them. (Linda and Kelly). I had wonderd in all these years what it must have been like to be a csi. Especially because they were MY people there to be found. And to have compassion and sense of humanity after that.. Yes, GOD BLESS THEM AND GOD REST THEIR SOULS. And God carry the tatterd pieces of those left behind ... ALL of them. Family and everyone else touched by that. And GOD, keep watch over this trial, because, lets not forget, the TRAIL is ABOUT JERRY NEMNICH!

• TK, I went back to review your reference about the July postings when indicating your assumption that I and Curious Local are the same person. I couldn't tell for sure how you came to that conclusion; but, I can guess that maybe it was because we both made reference to knowing Pat Botham in some way. I have come to learn that Pat had many friends and loved ones, so to make this assumption is a bit of a stretch. As I stated, I did not know her well, but knew someone who did, who was also a child at the time. I do not pretend to know or understand anyone's motives for posting on any blog on the internet. If people scrutinize the motives of everyone who posts on websites, no one would have a life at all. Although, this may be true for many people, given the popularity of myspace, facebook & twitter. I only know why it matters to me, to keep a discussion of issues that have not been put to rest, going. I do apologize if I have offended anyone by doing so. That has never been my intention.

• True, we are not the same person. I don't know about other's posting on this site. I do know that in many conversations with a multitude of person's in this comunity, and those who no longer live here (this includes emails and letters), it is not difficult to find people who have issues with the topics discussed here- and involving more than one case of wrongful death in this community that same time period. There is no shortage of people who believe justice has not been served for a number of Mesa County victims from 1974-1976. This includes the Botham/Miracle murders, but is not isolated to such. I do hope the Benson case does not end up in the same category. They deserve an honest attempt at justice. They all do. I don't know about anyone else, but that is why I keep the dialogue open.

• T.K. NO we are not the same person

• Well, CR, if you will notice the posts dated first few days oh July, you (CR) and Curious Local would seem to be the same person or poster. And I wonder about some of the posts of "others" who have a differing opinion regarding what Doug has said. As for me, thats why I closed dialogue.

• It's unfortunate that dialogue needs to be taken personally about these things. In my experience, if a topic becomes inflamatory it's usually because people DO care. That may be the only thing that both of you (Doug & R.G.)have in common. Maybe you both care. That isn't a bad thing. Agree to disagree. But, try & refrain from attacking the character of those you do not know, or attacking the motives. The truth does matter in all cases of wrongful loss of life. An objective onlooker can easily see that everyone who has posted here agrees to that. That is why any of this matters. The truth has not been told in any of this. The victims are what it is about. The trials, no matter how many there have been, or what is made of the upcoming trial, are irrellevant if the truth isn't revealed in them.

• Truth- do you even care, you have no idea as your inflamitory statements show! Dialogue concluded.

• Doug; A coment to your last coment in your post. This blog has NOT strayed from the Nimnich case. One must understand, we need to be very careful here out of respect for both the prosucution, and the defense teams handling this case,so as not to in any way predijuce either of their cases,plus the family deserves to be left alone, and let things be handled properly.I noticed you would not coment on canfields testamony. Also there WERE more than 2 at the scene on sat. pm. and also on sunday. their names are readily available,plus Botham WAS under scrutiny almost imediately,yet no investigation was truthfully initiated for almost 30 days.I know you know this to be true.as to a story, your reaching here,however this would have nothing to do with the truth.My motive is very simple, The TRUTH as best can be told this many years later.Wondering and suppositions do not have a place in our motives, but there is required some honest research knowing full well there are some mistakes to be made along the way,but I guess that since many pieces stil remain unaccounted for, just as they were in both trials, along with the questionable authority of the evidence submitted,I suppose this would qualify your coments

• RG tell me what a crime scene looks like? Someone not present does not suggest or a crime scene make. RG I do not know your motivation for all your wondering and suppositions, but your imagination leads me to believe you are writing a story. Another person wrote a story that had alluded to so many things not of a factual nature and pure conjecture. I've read this - trial procedures, cover up theories, and other theories presented in this blog. None of them bring proof or some tidbit that deserved further inquiry. A 2nd trial ordered to address technical procedures, same verdict. Most of this blog has strayed from the JERRY L NEMNICH story about the Mother and daughter whom were savagely murdered. May God bless & rest their souls.

• YOU are stretching things again. One patrol officer initially and one from Detective division. As all know more officers were involved as time passed.

• Doug,Thomas canfield has allready answered that question,at great length,in both trials. His testamony was; for pat Botham and the boys 'death occured 2 to 4 hours, mayby 5 hours after consuming their last meal. Pat Botham's last meal ,at 5.30pm to 6.00pm, all one has to do is do the math, even 5hours, the maximum according to canfield, would make her death occur at 10.00pm to 11.00pm. I agree, the uniform coments were a stretch,my point here has to do with the numbers of responders.A missing persons report was not officially filed for 72 hrs.later on tue.Why so many responders, 2 investigators, and possibly as many as 4 patrol officers. I believe it was because of the number of crimes against young women,including Linda M.,that had allready occured that summer, all of which you had knowledge of ,and or were involved with. This in itself suggest a crime scene, also the fact that Botham was almost immediately considered suspicious, and was placed under survailence that next day.

• RG - First of all you want me to elaborate on meals? I am not a pathologist. Ask Dr. Thomas Canfield that question. Out of uniform? My uniform at the time was civilian clothing as an investigator, methinks you are searching for something to criticize. In uniform or out, what is your point. Obvious crime scene, no. It is a stretch for you to know all see all, armchair this all you want. The Man who did this is in prison X 2 trials.

• as to my above post,I didn't edit very good, but i do that a lot, Linda Miracle, not Miricle, and it was an attempt on her life in June of 1975 not Linda B.

• R.G.says, Doug, since you were one of the primary investigators on the Botham ,Miricle case of missing persons and murders, and since the trials only covered a very little on Pat Botham,and using the D.A's own estimates please elaborate. If Pat ate dinner at 5.30 to 6.00pm and the D.A.'s arguement was time of death of 2 to 4 hr.,maybe 5hrs,after eating this meal, when would that have put her time of death? also, the record indicates you were well aware of the attempted murder of Linda B. in the month of June,also you were one of the main investigators in the murder case of Linda Benson in the month of July,Having arrived to the scene on Ouray in the month if Aug.very quickly,as you were out of uniform,how could you of not Known, without question that this was an obvious crime scene. Please correct me if i'm incorrect,wasn't there many officers plus investigators at this, ah,just a couple of women that decided to run off together somewhere missing persons report?

• To all who have been posting on this site, Looks like it has been rather quiet on this site,so to Doug, Glen, T.K.,R.G,and C.R.,and others,keep the dialog open, this is what brings buried information to the surface, both for the benefit,of the cases involved and for the overall view of events of this era.there are two very opposing views but both with similar goals,plus everyday it seams new,or at least different information surfaces.It probably could be said most of this is of no value but we just don't know,do we,until it is explored.

• Thank you, TK for clarifying. I check these posts periodically, not as an onlooker feeding on peoples pain. I empathize, for reasons I won't disclose (I'm not convinced this is a safe venue, as with any online venue...safety risks are an issue). These circumstances are an issue BECAUSE of lost life that was so very precious, BECAUSE of the families who miss them (and always will) and BECAUSE of the people that have yet to be vindicated with justice. It IS about those people, all of them, Linda Benson & Kelly included. I have a close family member who was old enough to have known Pat well. I knew them, but was young and the relationship had not enough time duration that created a significant bond, other than my time with the young Botham boys. I don't have ties with any of the other victims, but I do empathize the magnitude of the loss that was endured (and still is). This family member of mine was mentored as a young teenager by Pat. She looked up to her, she followed her direction and guidance and she still has dreams about her. Pat was, from my memory and that of others, a caring woman, beautiful- inside and out. The Botham/Miracle murder cases were closed; someone was convicted...twice. That is true. But, there are people who say that they believe strongly that Mr. Botham is innocent of the murders that he serves time for, there are reports of circumstantial evidence that HAS been shared to people in authority, that these murders were somehow related. If these claims hold any truth at all, what kind of people would ignore that? I know we live in a cold and uncaring world at times, but in my world, people care about other people, even if they don't know them. I write on this site for one reason and one reason only, and that is in the hope that someone, somewhere who can provide something to get to the truth, will do the right thing. Is it a long shot? probably. Are the lives of these people worth it? YES. I say that not because I know all of them personally and have a personal invested interest in them for my sake. I say that because I know that God says they are all worth it. He is truth and lies are not of him, and maybe HE wants the families to know why these lives were taken from the people who loved them, and wants all of the people responsible to be held accountable. Isn't that what true justice is? I hope you get what you need and Linda & Kelly Benson get the justice they deserve. I don't have to know them, to believe they deserve it. Thank you for hearing me out on this. I only wish the best for anyone who reads this.

• Curious Local, I wasn't meaning you personaly when I said " you" in post. Rather meant anyone, though I didnt phrase that well. As I said, I meant no disrespect for who ever you are or relation to anyone. I apologize if I came across as that. Where I asked "did you even know (any of these victoms).." I was refering to the many on-lookers who keep throwing things out there, and it is they, who in my opinion, are 'creepy people who just like to feed on other peoples pain".

• T.K. You are right,there are some out there willing to help and give what they can,and yes Ken B. was tried twice,and many of us know how that went.As far as a conspiricy, i have never said that, I pointed to corruption, and cover up.as to the crimes of that time frame I do believe there is a common thread between some of the murders and many other crimes.We must remember, there are still some unsolved murders.AS to the trial your involved with I have stayed away from any comments on it, soley out of respect for the family,and the judicial process.You say Proof, T/K. the autopsy reports are fact, the lack of scene processing for thirty days is fact,the fabricated testomy is fact, the supreme court rulings on numerous trial errors are fact,along with many other facts, to many to go into here.These are not just theories as has been refered to. The evidence is there, as to new, we wont go there.We are not chasing ghosts. Yes, I knew and was friends with Pat Botham, along with all the Botham family,and the boys. Feelings do matter, as does justice.

• Curious Local, the thing is, there are good people who are willing to help, and who do want to hear anybody.. just ANYONE who would come forward with EVIDENCE. Just give them something that is solid proof that what you believe as theories, are true. I'm not saying you are wrong. It's just that you have to go to the help, ,if they can help you. If you have something, take it to them. They just want proof. Thats all they are asking. That must seem kind of infuriating.. but you have to remember this; the people who are trying to help now, ARE trying to help. And, they did not committ these murders. It wasn't their fault. To find answers or ever just to be at peace with anything at all, would there be that much to loose to just to reach out and offer trust.. To just trust someone to help. The victoms of this are already gone. Nothing will ever bring them back. That's the TRUE tradgedy. In perspective, how could you do less than be all forthcoming if you have any proof of anything otherwise? Someone having a consciense now, after all these years is probably not going to factor in. Proof does though. And consider if you were on a jury, with that most weighty of decisions you had to make about a man's life in front of you, would you not want all the evidence you could have to make that hardest of choices about the rest of his life? Ken Botham had TWO trials. He was convicted in both. I have my own personal opinions about those. Still, that is not THIS trial. This is about a mother and her daughter. And the lives left behind with out them. Until someone can come forward with something other than conspiracey theory, then can we just let this BE about THEM.. ?? And honestly, do you actually KNOW anything about Linda Ketcham and Kelly, (aka Benson) or Linda Miracle and her two little boys who seem so forgotten in all of this.. or Pat Botham and her two boys left behind? If you want to see "justice", then be supportive of the families who were left behind. Volneteer for victoms of like crimes or ANY crimes. It will help you far more than chasing ghosts. And if you were family member of one of the many murder victoms, then you already know all this. If not, you're likely just anotherone of those creepy people who feed on other peoples pain. And I mean NO disrespect for who ever you may in fact be.

• TK,your observation seems appropriate,a conscience is a very difficult area to tap into,especially after 35 years,odds are you are right, it aint going to happen.Glen talks of all the errors in these posts,he also is right to a degree, you can only expect this after this many years,but I say to this, what about the many crucial errors within the trials,some huge and some deliberete.What about the many false claims by the D.A. the assumptions passed off to the jury without factual substance,the coaching of witnesses almost to the point of corruption, just to mention a few.So, to those who do in fact still have a conscience left maybe it is time to come forward,to help bring the actual facts out, to diminish the errors, and let the shoes fall where they may.

• Everyone has a piece of the puzzle. They either cannot or will not bring their piece. What's their motivation to do so? If they personally do not have a murderd family memeber, with all these unanswerd questions that will haunt you until you die... why would they? Motivation is the the only thing that ever moved first man on this earth... and why we are here now. Don't wait for someone to have a "consciense".. probably "aint" gonna happen

• Glen, I fully understand your position,and you deserve and are entitled to be bias, after all you have suffered a great deal,more than can even be imagined.but here is where I am on this. I, along with 2 others attended every day of both trials and heard exactly what 2 juries heard plus all the arguements and side bar discussions that took place with the juries out of the court room. This by no means make us any kind of an expert on any of this but it did give us some very good perspective on things. Actually until about 1 year after the first trial I was believing that Ken B was likely Guilty.I have been looking and reviewing everything since that time. Yes I do use old newspaper articles ect. to refresh my memory,and I really couldn't say whether my opinion is objective or subjective, I just know that after all this time and effort, there was far more that wasn't brought to the juries in trial than was. The problem is., most that wasn't would have provided a slant towards a huge cover up and framing, possibly lending some credence to Ken B's innocence. I realize that is very hard for all that believed,and still do, of his guilt, that just maybe there were more people involved than was disclosed but that is most likely the truth and should be revealed.

• CR, I don't think that private dialog would be very diplomatic or respectful of others at this time. Perhaps at a later time after other matters are resolved. I believe you'll understand why the truth must be both honest and open.

• Thank you Glenn for your honest efforts to see that accurate inforamtion is provided. I can't speak on Thad's behalf, but I can say that I would like nothing more than to have accurate information. If I have your permission, may I contact you? I know that by simply discussing the case involving Linda must be incredibly painful for you, and I do not want you or anyone to suffer any more. I appriciate your candidness and have no intention to allow any dialogue to turn negative. I would simply like to hear what you have to say in a respectful and diplomatic manner.

• CR, I see innacuracies in all sources connected to this topic. Including many on Thayer and Thad's web page. I try to understand how and why innacurate information was included but regardless of intent it leads to a very biased point of view. I'm willing to point out an example but am unaware of Thads wishes on posting that on this forum.

• With all due respect, I didn't read here that anyone was placing dispersions on the character or quality of the jurors who made thier decisions based soley on what was brought up in the trials. The trials were biased, and that is putting it lightly. That in no way is put on the fault of the jurors. They heard what others wanted them to hear & no more. Thank you for your honesty, it looks as if we all want the same thing after all. As far as this forum being the source of what has been deemed as "objective" or "subjective" information, it is noteworthy to make clear that my belief about Ken B's inocence or guilt is not merely a result of the things you mentioned (Glenn). The information from Thad & Thayer Botham's website was not derived from merely a few newspaper clips, some remnents of investigators files, or from subjective opinion of someone who wanted to just stir up trouble. The majority of the information came directly from the trials themselves, and interviews with the PEOPLE who were a part of the events that took place and were there when these things happened. To my knowledge, most of the information was collected by someone with no connection to the families or with any emotional involvement. Someone, out of mere concern for events that seemed wrong, took the job of conducting interviews, collecting documents & sitting through trials keeping records, all for the purpose of justice. From what I have learned, this person had no subjective or opinionated adjenda. No more than an outsider who saw serious injustice taking place and who tried to get others to notice it. If there are innacuracies in the kenbotham.com website, they would be from the interviews that were done and because of people's inate way of having multiple perceptions on the same events. I know if innacuracies do exhist, Thad Botham would be more than happy to make corrections. However, he needs to know what those innacuracies are in order to make those corrections. I agree with others who have posted on this site that people need to start coming forward. My research on all of this is purely objective & NOT based on merely a few things noted on this forum. Start talking to the right people & the truth will surface.

• I think everyone will agree that TRUTH should be told. I'm not sure that everyone believes as I do that newly discovered truth if any is found in this forum can only be objective and not at all subjective opinion. But who really thinks it's possible to take a few old news paper clips, some investigator's files, throw in a web site also with inaccuracies and biased opinion, toss it all into a kettle with a dimestore novel and another can of worms, stir it in an open forum like this and come away with objective truths? Wouldn't the goal of improving our justice system be better served by insisting that law enforcement and judical persons do thier jobs correctly in the first place? Without placing dispersions on the character quality of the 12 jurors that swore to adhere to doing their job right? I'm certain that my bias is apparent and don't intend to prove anything to a world full of misinformation. I would like to see though that Thad and Linda Benson's family find closure if only a good measure of it. My and Linda Chamberlain/Murphy/Miracle's family are already certain of who should now be persuaded to confess to Her, Troy's, and Chads's murder. I mean this in honest open respect to all posting here, Glenn Chamberlain

• A few comments to the conversation here, not everyone who is convicted for crimes such as murder, are able to cast doubt on their conviction, as a matter of record that number would be very low. Grand Junction has had several murder convictions that have held up just fine without all the issues. The Blagg conviction, the Drake brothers conviction, the Cambell conviction, just to name a few,for there have been many, none with the shadow hanging over it as the Botham conviction has. During this summer, the Botham period, within the city were a number of horrible crimes,including murders.Many of the circumstances involved with these seemed to focus on people and events that went untouched by law inforcement. Check the records, Corruption within the political system, the Judicial system, and a number of suspicious activities within the law enforcement personel.The thought was then, and I believe still is with many, that the story was only partly told,and the parts that were told,were only partially true.So I say to Glen, one MUST respect your feelings and conclusions because,yes Ken B. was in fact convicted twice, end of story; not hardly,the rest of the story is still out there,and probably would shake this area to hear it.It by no means though does this suggest that Ken B is innocent,however a true examination of the facts,without the cover up, the false testamony, the trumped defense team, may suggest such maybe even some framing. The valley is intitled to the truth on all of the events of this time frame.

• This is all very intersting. I went to the website posted by the accused's sons and found some very curious inconsistencies in this case. I don't think it matters what kind of a person Mr. Botham was (or is), or what kind of a person Mr. Nemnich was (or is). The issue should be- did they commit the murders that they are accused of?, and is the evidence used to convict them valid? Does the evidence show beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty? Being completely objective about the Botham case and what I have read and seen here, I can't see that the evidence is that strong against him (Nemnich may be a different story, from what I read in the papers). The Botham evidence is circumstantial, maybe, but not rock solid, by any means. There are doubts & questions or this site & blog wouldn't exhist. "Glen", you are so right that this is NOT a movie; this is about real people, with real loss. THE TRUTH SHOULD BE TOLD. The victims and thier families deserve that much. If there is more to these murders than is being brought to the public's eye, the families deserve to know. Anyone who has information that could help answer questions should speak up. One of the wisest things ever put in print is the saying..."the truth shall set you free". I know this wasn't written in this sort of context; I'm a believer in Christ and know what it actually referrs to; but, I also believe that the words of God are there to be helpful in many different circumstances, this one included. Contrary to what you say "Glenn" it has been revealed over and over again that many inocent people ARE in prison as we speak. Our judicial system is flawed and inocent people DO get convicted. You talk as if you have no liking of Mr. Botham and that may be well deserved. But, a person lacking good character doesn't always mean that person is a murderer. Again, I look to what actual evidence says. I wasn't even born when this all took place, but I can look at what I read and see flaws.

• Everyone, I think we are all just looking for the TRUTH. Whether it be Ken is guilty or not, the truth needs to come out. People need to know the truth and get closure. Finding a "scapegoat" for everything is not the answer. So what if Nemnich's trial opens up a can of worms. It's time people came forward. I cannot imagine what those girl's families went through that year of 1975. People are still around, and they need to be checked out before they are no longer around. It's been 35 years and time for people to come clean.

• "closier could come for many" by realizing that Ken B. is NOT another Andy Dufresne stuck in Shawshank prison. If Jerry N. is found guilty by a jury of his peers he'll probably stick to the story line that nobody is guilty at Canon City. I can only pray then that Linda and Kelly Benson's family is prepared for all the stories and misinformation that will follow until the guilty confesses.

• T.K.,Hope,Glen and all the others, Good posts from all, but it appears that it is time to ask L Bullard and the rest of those that assisted him so well, to go to the well and re-visit all the events of the mid-70's murders and suspicious deaths, with focus on the people,one in Texas, the one in Arkansas, and those still here in Grand Jct,which could number 3 or 4 others. Ken B.'s case needs re-visited, a renued effort to Debra T's case ,a review of Tracy F's case and others, including whitewater.It is time, the truth needs to start revealing itself, with a renued effort on this time frame and certain events and people,coupled with the upcoming trial,it is very possible much could be learned and closier could come for many.My best to all of you.

• COLORADO, no I'm sorry I dont know how to obtain the transcripts. I apologize for saying "transcripts" when I meant the web sight about the trial. (The Ken Botham trail). And to Curious Local, I am NOT saying that other law enforcement officers cared less, or did a better or worse job than the others. I wasn't there. Maybe you were, I don't know. I would agree that a lot of people have had questions about that time in G.J.

• Hope is correct, Doug,You were a very dedicated and honest,sincere,investigator,as was others,it's too bad there were several law inforcement individuals that weren't.T.K., it seems recognizes the gross errors involving both trials of Ken B,but T.K. a span of several hours was very critical, which caused a huge error especially when considering the death of PatB.I believe as many continue to search for the truth,it will surface as to what actually happened that night on Ouray st.and will disclose whom and how many were actually at those addresses that night.I believe the corruption and coverup will at some point surface and the truth will be made known. Ken B. is in prison for these crimes, maybe rightfully so, but hopefully we will know someday. Thad B.,Thank you for your openminded approach,you show much courage for your work.

• TK, Do you happen to know how to obtain the court transcripts for Ken's trial? From what I heard, the transcripts were not available - the Judge had put a block on them so no one could have access.

• Thad, I read the court transcripts of kens trial about a year ago. I was shocked at what did appear to be very wrong. I was botherd, like you, by the timeline.. But it is true that it is not a wide one, and the forensic science was not that good back then. I hope and pray for you that you will know the truth of what happend, one day. Linda was my sister. Kelly was my beautiful little niece. I can never begin to say what the loss of them did to my life, and even far beyond. Our lives, ordinary or extraordinary, were forever alterd...and what can one really say beyond that? ................TK

• Trial date is now set for October 12, 2010. My prayers are with family in ALL of these murders, but so too with every one who did work so hard in the search for the truth, and for the justice for the victoms and their families. Then, (Doug, I know you were one of them)- AND now. Respectfuly, HOPE

• Word is that trial is now being delayed again until October.

• Thad, I am so sorry it was you that use to watch me with Troy.

• Thad, I so sorry to hear of your brothers death. I remember him well. Troy and Thayer use to watch me jump on my trampoline. Both boys had a great time watching me and I liked to show off for them. Your family had a St. Bernard named Florence. She was a great dog. The other thing I remember is the lost look on his face when he told me his mom was gone. Shortly after that your father came home. It haunts me and I am sorry that I did not relize it was not just a fight. I have my own thoughts on guilt and will leave it at that. It was so sad what happened in our neigherhood and a great loss to so many people. I am also sorry for Linda and her daughter. It was a sad time in Grand Junction.

• From KREXTV.com 2/23/10 9:04am The defense asked to reschedule the trial, waiving Nemnich's right to a speedy trial in court today. Mesa County District Attorney says evidence testing from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation revealed new evidence that strengthens the prosecution's case. Nemnich's trial is scheduled to start at the end of August. http://www.krextv.com/index.php/site/article/nemnich_trial_rescheduled/81507960/

• IS IT TRUE THAT NEMNICH'S TRIAL HAS BEEN RE-RESCHEDULED FROM APRIL 19TH? DOES ANYONE KNOW THE NEW TRIAL DATE?

• I believe that I can speak for all who have posted on this thread, that in no way has anyone intended to to use this dialogue as a way to siderail from justice being served in the Benson cases. In fact, it appears to me that the only thing that all who have posted want more than anything, is true justice any time someone's life is taken from their families prematurely. I apologize if discussing issues that are relavent to these cases discussed, has brought any offense to the families and loved ones involved. That was never mine, or anyone elses intention. We all want to see the familie's questions being answered. I believe that was the true intent of this dialogue in the first place.

• Glen, Fair enough, I as well as you and probably all of G.J.sincerely pray for a good outcome for justice to be served in the Benson cases. I suppose the reason this thread was siderailed was because so little is known about the suspect and anything written would be pure guesswork. there are hopes though, much might surface regarding all the murders of that time frame.We must remember there are two and possibly four still unsolved, that families are still waiting for that respective closier. Hopefully though the trial apr.19th will be a beginning in the right direction for that end. Respectfully R.G.

• R.G., Not here and not now. I already regret that this thread was siderailed away from hopefully seeing justice done for the family of Linda and Kelly Benson. I pray that all of their answers are soon to be. Respectful Regards, Glenn

• Glen, thank you for a very good post, a lot offered,and probably difficult for you to do,so again thank you. you suggest an interesting comment about Ken's eyes,I to have witnessed that look,I knew him personally, also concluding he was obviously hiding something,but drew a different conclusion ,that it was more about his life style that he was trying to cover up, but if you feel you have other information statements as you suggest, please share them, because you see we all have been after the same end result, that is the WHY. I've been on this also since 1975. This is why many things have surfaced, causing a serious reason to take a second look at everything.The trials, as proven by the Supreme Court rulings,were totally misshandled, almost to the point of corruption,that is the first trial, the second trial, because of the inneptness of the defense team and no new evidence, was mearly a copy cat of the first trial. The outcome was inevitable.I would be fine in accepting the fact that Botham was and is guilty,but because of the Why, to many things have come to light to suggest otherwise,at least concerning the murders.

• Greetings to all concerned for good cause in this thread. Time is meant to ease all pain yet pain will always be for everyone connected to the devastating murders and the distruction of young families. We all search for answers that can not be answered. Mine is and always will be why. Not who. Not when. Not where. I am certain of all of these. My only questions remaining is why. All four victims in this case were good life loving human beings who should have lived their fullest. They left behind families and friends who weighed down by the grief and horror should also have been able to enjoy more of that life and love. I was/am saddened that Thayer was unable to find his answers. I wish now that I had reached out to him when I first viewed his web site several years ago. I hope his family are all well and find strength in the love they all shared. I remember Thayer and Thad as young playmates of Troy and Chad. Visions of big wheel trikes zooming around their yards are still vivid. I am Linda's younger brother, Glenn Chamberlain. Our family has also struggled over these years with questions. But again, not of who. but of why. You see, the day I found out Linda and the boys were missing along with Mrs Botham, I asked the convicted one question and saw the answer in his eyes. And heard the lie he told that could not be true. This is one of a thousand little details of a case that for legal reasons like "hear say" laws was never told. But was still factual and never sold on a bookstore shelf. Thad, I wish I could fully convince you that justice was done, but circumstance suggests that you will only believe your father should he confess to the crimes he was justly and twice convicted. Respectful regards, Glenn

• Doug, Thank you very much, I do so appreciate your comments, your candid honesty,I would never ever challange your effort nor your honesty,especially with hindsight. this has been one of the difficulties in my effort as well as others,to bring foward many issues with this case.I have been with this since the beginning in 1975, and would not expect anything other than Ken's guilt from those who worked so hard on his case, but I hope you are also open minded enough to see we may have some very good points that need investigation, that may well provide a case of great injustice. I do understand the eyes, I was there. again Doug, thank you and please continue to follow and corresponde with us, also, I know R Smith, and I may well give him a call.

• To be there, to see, to realize you have to do it or be there. The latter sentence reflects so many things in life, you would've had to been there to see it and believe it, the look you saw in the eyes which are the windows to the soul. I know I saw.

• Doug, my apologies if I came on to strong, my claim is nor ever was against the officers,investigators, first on the scene,who were trying to find out about these women,and boys,but has been directed towards those who were in charge and should have been handling the process with more caution and suspicion. yes, I have actually been in homes and circumstances as was the case of Linda's home but I can only imagine what it was like for you. As far as my comments on the timeline's,I stand on the record of the original coroner and the other two expert pathologists,who layed it out whthout any dispute, after many many hours of questioning, the two to four hour margin with one expert holding to the one hour frame. As far as Ken's appearance and what he was wearing, it sounds like he was under suspicion at this time, if so that would of been more cause to proceed with caution, and secure the homes as possible crime sites. and no, I do not have the case layed out in front of me, but show me evidence where the state provided a location of the murder of the Boys. other than suspicion it may have been at the house or possibly at the bridge. Doug, I do not claim to have the answers to all of these questions, that is why we continue on.

• Thank you, Doug :) Please don't misinterpret honest questions with a disrespect for the investigators who worked the case. That is not my intention. You seem to be the only one intersted in even responding and helping those of us with questions get the answers we are looking for. And, I understand that we may never have those answers, for you are right....only God knows & the guilty. No, this isn't CSI and yes, investigators did what they could, and yes, they were very good at thier jobs....I am not saying otherwise. I don't know Ron Smith, but thank you for the information. His name has come up many times while researching this case, but there were so many officers names that showed up- without having known any of these people personally or having direct access to case records, it's been very hard to determine who did what. I suppose that is why a site such as this comes in handy....to get the information needed. I'm sorry to have taken up so much of your time, but you have been very helpful. As far as the scratches, I have reviewed the kenbotham.com website & I believe that issue was addressed there. Thanx again

• speak with Lt. Ron Smith! We all felt things were not quite right. Arm Chaired by the best, this case was blown from the onset from my position on up, things could have gone better. But investigators did what they could with procedures in place. This is not modern CSI television where everything just falls into place. - I. E.you wouldn't have any questions. The scratches on Ken etc (speculation), he was wearing a turtle neck on a summer day. Good luck

• Just an observation.....RL appeared to be asking about clarification of the fact that two boys had been left unnatended/were not dressed or fed, that personal items were all still left in both homes & that both women's cars were in their drive ways....with the question being as to why these factors did not suggest foul play? I didn't see RL ask about the unkept home. I have been in many an ukept home (although not Linda's), but if I saw that all of her personal belongings were there (purse, keys, cigarettes) & her car was in the driveway & someone had called to report her missing, it wouldn't take alot of specualion to come to the conclusion that something may be wrong. THAT appears to be what RL is asking for clarification of. Whether or not Linda had a kept home doesn't seem to be an issue in the above post. The issue as to how investigators came to the conclusion that these women were more than likely ok and to not investigate their missing person's report is what the post seems to be questionsing. Is there a viable explanation for that? I,too wonder about that. Of course, only those directly involved in the investiagtion would have had access to the specifics of the case and could be able to have the case all laid out. You state that you never had the opportunkity to have the case laid out, but who did? I'd like to speak to that person, if there were ever to be an opportunity.

• RG -- time lines, aludded to, Scenario , I am sorry it is not a perfect world. Bodies that lie in the river for several weeks, time and digestion EXACT hmmmmm ????? a lot of unknowns that only God has the answer for in when etc. Maybe your better at speculation because facts are - motive, opportunity, 4 people lay dead after this day and night in question. I don't think we have exact on anything, ever been in an unkempt home, or were you there? The only thing for sure is Ken Botham does know. Don't be sorry, because not one of us is all knowing. You put exacts on between this time and that. Do you have the entire csse laid out before you? I never even had that opportunity. Go forward to someone, somewhere if you feel strongly? I believe the correct person is in the right place as of this writing. If I insulted you somehow, please forgive my older age. Well I admit to saying wild Speculations, but not Mindless. There is a step by step to your observations, interesting.

• Doug, if your still checking here, a couple of questions out of many. Early in these conversations you made mention to guess work and mindless speculation,regarding some of our statements.When the scene on Ouray was first approached by investigators regarding missing persons,the fact that two women were missing during the same night,two small boys had been in the yard all day,dirty and with little on,no mother seen all day, both womens cars in driveways,all of the personel items, keys money,walets clothing,glasses,and smokes (linda's) of both women,food still on the table and stove at the miricle home, tell me how this could have been anything but suspicious,bringing cause to secure the homes as a precaution precluding a possible crime. Also the order or scenerio of the murders. It really was not alluded to at trial,probably because the prosecution had nothing solid as to the location of the murder of the boys.for obvious reasons,however it was the general opinion they were transported to an unknown location to be murdered.the testamony drew the conclusion the women were murdered between 1.00 am and 130am, this would mean the boys were not murdered until 3.00am or later.these fact directly from the trial.this means from 8.30pm 9.00pm the time testamony concluded the boys ate a partial supper to 3.00am would be 5 and one half to 6 hours to the murder time plus leaving a partial recognizable meal of straight carbs in their stomachs.after being murdered. Now i'm sorry Doug but just where did the facts Lay.

• Mandy: Thank you for sharing your wisdom. You are a very wise woman. Crime can come from where and when one is not aware.

• Thad Mandy is correct, caution is always the best policy. You know my last name , (reports in your possesion), but I choose not to post it here. Having worked in this community these many years I am still cautious. With that in mind, we live in a technology world and you can easily find me. So that being said I only wish you the best and please do stop in and see me at my office.

• Thad, Haven't you learned your lesson from reading all these horrible stories!! You shouldn't meet people you've met on the internet. :-)

• Wow. Several more posts up since Monday. Doug, you've been so gracious in your comments and willingness to talk openly. CR and RG, you too. I admire this considerably. What an opportunity to have an honest discussion with several of you who attended the trials. And to have someone commenting here who was even one of the few who were at the actual autopsies, someone who put hundreds of hours into investigating the case, to boot! What a privilege. I fear, though, that I may have cut this opportunity short. Upon reading back through the posts above, I think that I was too aggressive. I apologize for being rude. I get excited. I would be honored, Doug, to take you up on your offer to visit over coffee the next time I'm in Grand Junction. My treat. CR or RG, maybe I could visit with either (or both) of you as well? Should you want to contact me directly, my email is thad.botham@asu.edu.

• Doug, Thank you for your open mindedness & sincere attempts to help with explantions. I do have some questions and would like to make sure I have accurat information. Maybe you could help me make sure I am not being mislead with my inquieries, having been so directly involved. Are you listed in the public directories? I would be willing to have an open discussion in person. My eamil is icready@yahoo.com. I. too, live in GJ. Thank you, again.

• Crime scenes? At first report there was nothing to suggest crime from the exterior to the interior. Nothing physical was Identified at the onset of the report. It is a shame that modern police procedures were not in place at the time of the missing persons report. If you would have seen the interior of the Miracle home, well let me just say it was unkempt, for a garbage disposal there was a hole into the homes crawl space. No noticeable disturbance that might even suggested a struggle. Yes, thanks to this sites owner. I still think of this murder and others that I investigated, Jerry Nimnich's arrest brought back those thoughts. Do I remember everything clearly??? Don't think so, but it is something that you never forget, the details are becoming more vivid! You can find me in Grand Junction!

• Doug, very vaguely, mostly Tom Montgomery. His testimony on the guns, and not being able to talk about what Pat had told him. I do realize that the testimony on the condition of the homes and the way people acted when you all arrived on the scene was, in fact, very critical. That has been some of the criticism. There wasn't anything done to secure the homes. It had to be known they were crime scenes. The time was, without question, gone over in great length among all the parties involved, but I believe, in a way, to be able to establish a much later time for the crimes, the D.A. had already felt you had all the evidence you needed and just needed to be able to establish that Botham would have been able to get back from Ouray in time to commit these crimes. Having already mentioned Pat, look at Linda. She had to be be attacked directly after Wilhelm left,11.30pm she had just undressed, but had not yet climbed into bed, a very short window. The killer had to be watching her. And I believe even you believe the boys could have taken and were killed at a different location. The state says approx. 1.30am on the Ouray Ave. crimes. To travel to a different location would surely move the time of the death of the boys into the early morning hours, most likely 2.30 to 3.00am, if the states time at Ouray Ave. is acurate Doug, I would really like to meet you, not to try and prove any points. That has never been my purpose, but just to get to know more. After all, this was a very hard and very troubling time for people in your field, and had to weigh very heavy on you, and all who worked on this case. I do appreciate your imput and comments. And would like to thank the owner of this site to allow us to dialoge on this matter. It is very much apreciated.

• I then assume that all of you listened to my testimony, although brief at Both Trials. I was called to the stand in Golden by the Prosecution and then Later by the Defense. It took Terrance Farina by surprise when I was called by the defense along with Tom Montgomery.

• Doug, I was present during all of DR.Canfield's testamony, the same testamony the jury heard. I was also present at the Golden trial and heard all the same testamony,plus that of other expert patholagists. All of them, after hours of questioning, back and forth,the conclusion of all was that the time of death was in a range of 2 to 4 hours after eating for Pat and for the boys, but at least 1 of the experts indicated the most probable time was the 2 hr range. You have to look at time of Pat's death! The state sidestepped her. The events of her evening and the witnesses who spoke with her at 8.15 p.m. and at 9.15.pm. are more than reasonable proof she ate supper early, most likely between 5.00pm and 6.30pm plus she died with approx. one third of a recognizable meal still in her stomach. Now, this is only a brief comment on this. I really am open to a discussion.

• I'd like to state for the record, that I too, have a great deal of respect for the work that went into investigating this case. Doug, the timelines that we are refering to are the events surrounding when the victims had eaten relative to the food remaining in the stomach per the autopsy reports, as Thad so well described. Thad, I assume you were refering to the boy's autopsy; however, the autopsy for your mom indicates that she was killed before the boys, as she had the most food in her stomach at time of death. Her autopsy was barely discussed at the trial (only briefly). It was reported that there could be know way to determine when she had last eaten. This had not been challenged by the defense. It is her autopsy & her time of death that is most convincing to me, even though there is not any physical evidence as to when she had eaten; there were witnesses whose testomonies are relative to determine a possible time frame. I also contend that interviews and reports not made available to the general public (or the families of the victims) could hlep those of us with doubts understand why the investigation went the way it did. I have many questions that I am open minded to hear the answers to if anyone were to be able to explain them. I'm not a coffee drinker, but would be open to a cup of Chai, while objectively discussing these things. I think it's important to state that there is evidence that Ken was involved in something, and I do not contend that the evidence clears him of all wrong doing, just the murders. And, yes....his actions and statements made at that time did indicate that he was worried about what was going to happen to his kids; but maybe not for the reasons that one might assume. Thank you, Doug for being so willing to discuss this.

• Thad glad to have had the opportunity to exchange with you, I don't think we will ever agree but Oh well. It would be fine should you visit Grand Jct. sometime. I would sit with you and visit. I only wish you and your family the best.

• Doug, I deeply respect your work in the case. And I thank you for your willingness to challenge Ken Botham's defense. I need to be challenged. I know that most of the officers in the GJPD and Mesa County Sheriff's Office worked as hard as anyone could ask of them. And from what I've understood through these years, Doug, you were one of them. Doug, I submit to you the concrete challenge again: If anyone can beyond a reasonable doubt explain to me how the known Time-Line is consistent with Ken Botham killing Linda, Troy, Chad, and my mother, then I beg him or her to write it down and send it to me (thad@kenbotham.com). Or, better yet, submit it here. Anyone can study the Time-Line here: http://kenbotham.com/evidencecatalog.htm#1. To my mind's eye, the timeline is pretty concrete. Yes, Doug, we're not talking about dating the time of death within minutes. No one is claiming that. We're talking about dating the time of death in terms of hours. For sure, Tom Canfield's reports as well as defense expert's review of Canfield's reports come into play. And the timeline just doesn't add up in my mind. The simple argument is this. We know the victim ate before 9pm. Canfield's report indicates the victim had a stomach full of food. Under normal conditions, stomach's empty completely in 2-4 hours. Thus, the death occurred no later than 12:00am midnight. Steven Norris reliably places Ken Botham in Ouray between 10:00-11:30pm (and Botham was about 3/4 mile from his vehicle by foot). The drive from Ouray to Grand Junction is about 2 hours (and the jog from Norris to Botham's vehicle takes some time). Thus, in the most favorable circumstances for the prosecution, Botham cannot be in Grand Junction until 12:00am midnight. If the victim's stomach is full, then the child died shortly after 9pm. Thus, Botham could not have done it. In the best case scenario for the prosecution, Canfield's report indicates the victim's stomach is only 1/2 full. So, that puts the death 1-2 hours after 9pm. Thus, the best the prosecution has is the death occurred at 11pm. And since Botham can't be in Grand Junction until 12:00am midnight, Botham didn't kill the victim. And all of this under the assumption that IF Botham killed the child, Botham did it the very moment he got to their homes in Grand Junction--also a stretch, I should think. Other conditions present actually put the time of death even earlier: (1) the meal was simple carbs and so exits the stomach faster than the average meal, thereby putting the time of death earlier; (2) the child may not have eaten to his full capacity, thereby putting the time of death earlier because there was a large amount found in his stomach; (3) the digestive process and stomach juices break down the food after death, thereby destroying the stomach's contents which were actually found in the stomach; (4) the environmental conditions for the 30+ days the victims were in the Gunnison River most certainly did not add any food matter to the stomach. That's pretty concrete. And the link I give is WAY more concrete than my little sound-bite-of-an-attempt-to-offer-something-concrete. Yes, Doug, I understand that the "timelines etc. were viewed, reviewed, hashed out and thought over time and time again." But realizing that others thought about it is not sufficient evidence for me to believe Botham is guilty. After all, many people have viewed and reviewed and hashed and rehashed the details of the timelines and come to the conclusion that Botham is innocent. I don't think, however, that the jury thought enough about it. I'm inclined to think that the jury didn't hear a clear description of the timeline from the defense. In fact, the Sentinel reports in Jan1982 that some of the jury members said the defense's version of the timeline didn't make sense. I realize that there was probable cause to suspect Ken Botham. I understand that there was a great deal of circumstantial evidence against him. But there is also evidence that offsets the prosecution's evidence. And, many have maintained that there was as much probable cause pointing to others. Doug, I'd like to read the entire transcript of this interview between Milo Vig and my father. In its entirety. Claims of my father like "What will happen to my kids?" or "I confess my sins to God only" can be pulled out of context. To be sure either way, let's see the concrete document or recording of the whole interview. But, people like me can't get ahold of it. We are not allowed to examine it. And the entire interview did not come out at trial. Did Ken Botham take a polygraph? If so, how many? Did he pass? The burden of proof is not on the defense to prove to anyone precisely what other person committed the crimes. Of course, the defense would like to have such a case, but it would be a bonus from a legal poin of view. The defense need only show reasonable doubt against the prosecution's case. Again, I think the timeline is pretty concrete. Let's talk about its concrete details. I can be swayed. It is not blind faith that I believe my Dad is innocent. Indeed, over the years there have been times when I felt he was guilty. But I'll go where the evidence goes. I don't know who killed my mom, Linda, and Linda's two boys. But I don't need to know who did do it to have good reasons for thinking my dad did NOT do it, right?

• CR I was at one of the autopsies myself, Timelines?? - Ask Pathologist Thomas Canfield. Dr. Canfield performed those autopsies and I can tell you times are too open ended. ----Dr.'s are educated at guessing in a lot of cases. I don't think you would get finite time lines from stomach contents to with in a few minutes or maybe even an hour or two. Best guess technology unless you can use a Gas Camatograph (SP) spectrum analysis and even then a baseline. May some scientist can tell you, Maybe you are one. I just don't know how you finish proving to someone that Ken did it. I believe in God and will someday know definetley. When Ken was interviewed by Milo Vig he was overheard to say, " I confess my sins to God only", Milo felt Ken almost confessed to him. No doubt about it, Ken Botham is very intellegent. Thad with all due respect, I saw you and your little Brother the day your mom was reported missing. I don't recall seeing you since. Sounds like your a bright man and quite committed to your family and father. Good, keep up the faith, no one can alter your faith. I believe the way I do having been involved in the entire case as it progressed. I was not the in charge officer, I was a worker and received instructions from people overviewing the case. You know whom all the officers were on the Sheriff's side and Police side. At the final time a colusion of officers worked side by side with the DA investigators Vince Jones the DA Himself Terrance Farina. Now knowing all these facts Don't you think that timelines etc. were viewed, reviewed, hashed out and thought over time and time again. Again Bring something concrete? The case was "The People of the State of Colorado" V Kenneth H. Botham", Cases as these are brought because there is reasonable cause to believe the accused committed the crime and evidence has to be presented with all the facts before you can take a man/woman to trial.

• Doug, Being a detective familair with the case, you no doubt had access to the autopsy reports. It is in those reports and the timelines of the when the victims had last eaten that you find the "concrete" evidence needed and that you are asking for. It is in that information alone that says Ken didn't kill them. Who did? There are several people of that time who had motive. But, sadly, no evidence to convict anyone else.

• Thad & RG While I certainly believe Kenneth Botham did commit the Murders, again please bring proof someone else did it. Ken was employed and it indeed involved in the the theft of several firearms stolen, including the one found under the house. That 22's were in the Grand Junction area is not in dispute, I have had one since I was a boy in the 50's. Everyone and every family probably had one at some time. This case is just sad, 2 small boys and 2 moms gone - 2 other small boys and Dad's life in jail forever altered. The Botham & Miracles suffered much since. The memories I have as the City of Grand Junctions first detective on the scene, Harry Lane a PD Sergeant was the first officer to contact Ken. So the rest is history and w/o concrete facts ----where do you go? Words such as infer and inconclusive are fuzzy terms.

• In an above post, I said: "The timeline is a bit involved. But with careful and attentive focus on the details and with some math, one can reasonably infer how the children died before Ken Botham could have gotten to Grand Junction. It takes about 30 minutes." I meant that an attentive focus on the details of the timeline takes about 30 minutes. A 1975-drive from Ouray to Grand Junction takes about 2 hours.

• Doug, you ask a very good question: Why would anyone hide a 22 under the house that Ken took from Stephen's sporting goods in the late 60's? We can put a sharper point on your question. Why would Ken Botham, when asked to turn over to law enforcement all of his many firearms, turn over all of them EXCEPT a .22 pistol (that he knew was stolen from Stephen's Sporting Goods in the late 1960s) and instead HIDE this stolen .22 under his house? It's reasonable to think that the answer to Doug's question is found within the question itself. Ken Botham knew the .22 pistol was stolen goods, and stolen many years before 1975. Most people who knowingly have a stolen gun do not want to get into trouble for having a stolen weapon. It's reasonable to think that Ken Botham believed at the time that police would prosecute him for stealing the .22 from Stephen's Sporting Goods. And so he hid the gun under his house. Doug, yes, most people want to believe in their own family. My brother, Thayer, and I were raised for about 6 years in a household (our paternal grandparents) that maintained our father was innocent. In stark contrast, we were raised for about 10-12 years in a household (our maternal grandparents) that maintained our father was guilty. Both sides of our family did everything imaginable to love and to care for us. Yes, most people want to believe in their own family. But when they disagree, what does one believe? I want to believe in the evidence. Understandably, the road has been difficult. Over the years my brother and I each came to our own conclusions regarding the guilt or innocence of our father. We did not take this task lightly. Our mother was snapped away, and grief seemed always to percolate just beneath the surface. To have but an anchor for this grief, it seemed, would make things more just and somehow more bearable. We each concluded that our father is innocent. Again, while there are many reasons, I find the time-line a pretty compelling reason for why my father is innocent. Around 2003, Thayer devoted a few years to organize his thoughts on our father's case and posted them at www.kenbotham.com . As of today (4Jan2010), Thayer has been solely responsible for the content of this website. Like my brother, I forgive whoever murdered our mother and stole so much of our strength, whether our father or someone else. Tragically, Thayer unexpectedly died in a motorcycle accident just over a year ago, in August 2008. He leaves his wife and two children, ages 9 and 7. Thayer worked at the local airport as Chief Inspector for aircraft maintenance. Losing my brother, who has been such a source of strength throughout so much of this mess, is about as much as I can handle. Steve Huff, thank you for this platform for open discussion.

• I am glad to see that mature dialog can be used to assist in understanding and answering important questions. The timeline is critical, VERY critical. The autopsy reports and the times of death need serious & objective review. I believe law enforcemnt at the time did the very best possible to evaluate the evidence. The problem was the lack of PHYSICAL evidence linking Ken directly to the murders. Lots of circumstancial evidence-true. But circumstancial evidence can be misinterpreted, even by the most honest and diligent pair of eyes. It does not appear to me that Marti in no way intended to print anything missleading- she printed her interpretation and printed it as fiction- so, yes, there is flexibility with that. Anything that may have been innaccurate was simple human error or misgiven information. She went with what she knew & had, just like everyone else- including the investigators at the time. The bottom line is that everyone interested in this case wants the same thing....the truth, or as close to the truth as anyone not directly involved can get. That matters because alot of people suffered, and from what I have observed, many still are. This community was hit hard during this time, and being a community of mostly natives, a high number of people who lived these tragedies are still here and still wondering. To be clear, Marti and the Botham sons have not been the only community members who continue to believe there was much more to these murders than what was determined at Ken Botham's trials. There are many people in the area who have questions and specualations. Those rumors that you speak of, Doug, have not gone away. People are still asking questions.

• Doug, I guess Marti should be ashamed, but ashamed only if she deliberately chose to publish incorrect information while passing it off as true. But the book is fiction, right? Well kinda. Seems there is some wiggle room, since her book is fiction. My hunch is that there are very few people on the earth who know whether or not Marti maliciously chose to mislead her readers rather than either making honest mistakes or using freedoms that the genre of fiction provides. I gather from your comment, Doug, that Marti's book says that .22 caliber handguns were issued to members of the Grand Junction Police Department. I know that my late brother Thayer's website (www.kenbotham.com) publishes this claim as well, in the Overview section. But the website is definitely not supposed to be fiction, but rather is supposed to be an attempt to uncover the cold hard truth. This overview section on the website is an essay written by Meg Clark, a concerned citizen at the time. Doug, thank you for correcting this error. So Meg Clark got it wrong. I have control of the content on that website now. And in the spirit of tracking down the truth, I commit to correct this error. Of course, the magnitude of this error about .22 firearms being issue to the GJPD is not an egregious error. Like RG says, how many law enforcement officials back then owned either a .22 or a .25 caliber weapon? It's reasonable to think the number is not low. So it's not an error on which very much hinges. But it needs to be corrected. And I will. I have a website designer helping me this February (I'm hoping) to give the site a facelift. Neither Thayer nor I have ever maintained that an officer was shot or otherwise wounded in the stomach. I have no clue either way. As a point of full disclosure, just a few days ago (29Dec2009) I found another error in the Meg Clark article that is published as the overview section on my brother's website. And much more hinges on this error. We know that the four bodies of Linda, Troy, Chad, and my mom where dropped into the Gunnison River from the old Bridgeport Bridge. The overview article, however, claims that there was a high fence and a locked gate that prohibited public access onto the old Bridgeport Bridge, and that only public officials had keys to the lock. If there was a high fence and a locked gate and Ken Botham had no key, then Botham couldn't have dropped the bodies into the river. Nonetheless, the claim is false. Yes, there was a fence and locked gate. BUT, there was also about 2 feet below the gate, and just about anyone (whether alive or, with help, dead) could slip under the gate. Moreover, there was a 2 foot space beside the gate post around which anyone could pass -- anyone whose berth was less than 2 feet, that is. While no one has ever contacted my brother or me to correct this error, I found out on my own. The account about the bridge being inaccessible due to a high fence and locked gate had never been confirmed to me, and I was skeptical. I did some digging and found out the truth. And, I commit to fixing this error on the website. So Doug, I welcome correction. I welcome an open discussion. Some people shut down discussion. I'm not one of them. I want to know. I want to know who murdered my mother, whether it was my father or someone else. And in addition to Wanting to believe my father (who has maintained his innocence over these past 34 years), I do believe him. I don't pretend to be certain. Rather, I hold the tentative belief. Why? I'm most convinced by the evidence contained in the Time-Line. While there are even other reasons suggesting that Ken Botham has been wrongly convicted, the timeline compels me to believe he's innocent. The timeline is a bit involved. But with careful and attentive focus on the details and with some math, one can reasonably infer how the children died before Ken Botham could have gotten to Grand Junction. It takes about 30 minutes. If anyone can beyond a reasonable doubt explain to me how the known Time-Line is consistent with Ken Botham killing Linda, Troy, Chad, and my mother, then I beg him or her to write it down and send it to me (thad@kenbotham.com). Anyone can study the Time-Line here: http://kenbotham.com/evidencecatalog.htm#1. The jury was prohibited from taking any notes during the 6-day trial #2 in Golden.

• Doug,after looking at my comments,whether or not Botham was employed or just purchased the gun(for $30.00),the fact is, it was stolen. The rest of my comments are accurate and are not just bringing inaccuraccies as you claim.The blood, I am not sure we can cover that here,butI think Dr. Kamen's testamony was ,the only conclusive sample,was from the floor mat in the back of the vehicle,the rest of the samples examined, were inconclusive.The wire cutters were probably the best evidence presented, and this had some serious challenges, especially in the Golden trial.However, there wasn't any evidence collected,or gathered, or crime scene secured,` until more than 30 days after Botham reported what he was sure to have been a crime with his wife and neighbor. I am not sure about your last comment, you and I both know Botham is not going to be set free, but that doesn't mean there still isn't a lot that could be looked at,which may shed some light on a case left with an awful lot of holes and questions, some which might suggest his innocense.I too, would enjoy meeting with you over coffee and danish,I do believe constructive dialoge is a good thing. I really have no axes to grind.

• RG you seem to know a lot about this case, it would be interesting to visit with you personally. I am always open to that. I do know having investigated and brought up that 22 you discussed at the trial in my testimony that Ken was employed by Stephens when that 22 was taken along with a couple of others in his possession. Read any police report you want during that time about an officer being wounded! It will not disclose any officer wounded. As far as going right to Ken, it was not hard to look at him as it was him No one else, washing the back of his vehcile out and some evidence of blood in the rubber molding of the vehicles tailgate. Some wire cutters with matched tool marks on the coaxial cable around bodies. RG you know enough about the case - because for years this has gone around that someone else did it. Bring in the proof - set Ken free - please bring something other than inaccuracies. Marti said in a statement she made people mad, I was not mad and maybe some were, but PLEASE - someone come forward with real proof! I guarantee you anyone who was interviewed or looked at was grilled, no one wants someone inocent to be in jail.

• Interesting coments from Doug. Seems others might need to facts check.While it is a truth,the Dept.never issued 22's, it's common knowledge all or at least nearly all dept.personel,plus probably nearly everyone in G.J.owned a 22.It really doesn't say in Marti's book specifically that an officer was shot in the "stomach" only that one received a serious injury in an officer related incident. The officer incident reports of that time period probably should be reviewed. As to Botham hiding the gun,this was explained in great detail at trial.This gun was never placed in Botham's hands any time the night of Aug.22 nor was it ever placed at any crime scene,nor was it ever connected to any crime scene,including the murders. Also, the gun(stolen)was purchased from an employee of Stephen's Sporting Goods. Lastly, Marti's book,it seems, does not claim to be totally factual. And yes, there has always been specualtion, quite frankly, there should have been more. By the record, there were at least 3 individuals that were people of interest, and needed more scrutiny. And yes, they went right to Botham. That was a lot of the problem.

• Wild speculation, suggestions, game playing by people wanting to lay the blame elsewhere, (from Ken Botham). Marti should be ashamed for flat out incorrect information in here fictional book. Ie:"stand police issue service weapon was a 22 caliber". There was never a time that the Grand Junction police department issued 22's, or a an officer was wounded in the stomach. I read your book and some parts were interesting. But having been involved in the investigation, lead us right to Ken Botham. Why would anyone hide a 22 under the house that Ken took from Stephen's sporting goods in the late 60's. My oh my, I can't blame anyone's sons from wanting to bleive in their Dad. But For others to push them with half truths and speculations is unconscionable.

• Chamaine Ready. Marti's right. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this material. You can email me at thad@kenbotham.com.

• Just happened to stumble onto this site after researching "Jerry Nemnich" under Botham murder. There may be other murders he's committed between the years he was free. He was a long haul trucker and there had been numerous hitchiking murders back in those days. It would be interesting to compare DNA evidence to those as well. This would perhaps bring closure to many families of the victims.

• Chamaine Ready--- I got an email from your parents and let them know how to contact me. I am not interested in writing another book on the subject. I made a lot of people mad by writing the first one and after 30 years, any new evidence would be difficult to prove. Colorado Cold Case - the Botham/Miracle Murders is about my own personal experience with the case and is not a "true crime" in the real sense of the word. To write an actual account of both trials would be tedious at best and I'm getting too old. Yes, I know there is a lot of information that didn't come out. The Botham boys (Thayer age 5 and Thad age 2 at the time of the murders) suffered a great deal being the sons of a man convicted of multiple murder. Thayer especially since he remembered his mother. Now that Thayer has passed away, I am sure Thad would be interested in what you have. Marti Talbott

• I am a native of Grand Junction and my family lived here during the 6o's & 7o's (still do). There has been extensive research about all of the mentioned murders from GJ at that time. Most of this research is available on the Botham website put out by the Botham boys. But, with this new arrest, there have been new developments. Ken Botham's case will not be re- opened according to a statement from an investigator on the cold case team. Many questions still go unanswered but there is new information worth looking into- if only someone with the 'know how' would take the time. There is much more to these murders than what is being published and told to the public. The research I have available does not appear to point to a 'random' serial killer. Marti, do you know of any interest in writing a 'sequel' of sorts to your book- Colorado Cold case? Please post a response on this website if you are interested and how I can contact you.

• Just two months later, two women and two little boys were murdered and thrown into the Gunnison River just outside of Grand Junction. I wrote a book about those murders because the evidence against the man convicted just didn't add up. Wouldn't it be something if he's been in prison for 30 years for killing his wife and three others - and he really didn't commit the crime. Not only that, he was in prison at the same time Jerry Nemnich was - probably in the very same prison. The name of the book is : Colorado Cold Case - the Botham/Miracle Murders There is a section in the book about the Benson murders. There were 14 murders and attempted murders that year and the whole community was at the mercy of a very messed up police and sheriff's department. Marti Talbott

• Thanks for the info, Steve. Maybe the next one...

• What's frightening to me is that statistics say for every serial killer we do know about, there are 100 we don't know. Makes me shake my head. Just don't know anyone anymore huh?

• I wonder if he murdered my girl friend in Denver in 1983. <strong>NOTE FROM STEVE: Probably not. I was wondering if he was responsible for the horrific murder of the Bennett family in Denver in 1984, but turns out Nemnich was in prison for the entirety of the 80s. Unsolveds from the 60s and from 1992 onward, though, it's fair game to wonder if he was involved.</strong>

• Wow. This really is intriguing!

• JonBenet??? <strong>NOTE FROM STEVE: Seems like his DNA would be in the databases, since he's been arrested for sex offenses in the past. But he was out of prison at the time, as far as I've been able to tell.</strong>

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