Alyssa Bustamante, 15, Charged With Slaying of 9-Year-Old Elizabeth Olten

Finally the name is released 'officially'. Even though it's been blasted all over the internet for the past two weeks. I am saddened to know that a teen did this to a child. But trying her as an adult is the only option. She knew what she was doing and knew the potential consequences that would rise from this. I would still like to know how the little girl was taken away? She was obviously lured away from her path somehow, and in which way was she killed? Hopefully everything will come into the open so people can stop guessing with ridiculous accusations. I've even heard that she 'slowly cut into the girls wrists and let her bleed out'. I'm thinking strangulation, possibly stabbed? If she wanted to know 'how it felt', then strangulation is my guess. It's extremely personal. Their face is right infront of you and you see the life leave their body.

It's a horrible ordeal.

My blessings are with Elizabeth and Alyssa's families.

Liberals are always moaning about the dangers of overpopulation, their reason for promoting abortion.

Start by getting rid of this girl--if proven guilty--who cannot tell the difference between killing someone in a computer game and destroying a living human being. If she dies in prison by the hands of fellow inmates or more mercifully by due process, it serves her right. Society has no need of her.

I cannot believe this girl killed for the fun of it.... to see how it would feel. I wonder if she ever thought how it would feel when she got caught and being in a cell for years. I think they might pull the insanity plea on this one. She does have the suicide attempt. Now, I am wondering who the second grave was for?

Amanda:

This is what I found about how Alyssa killed Elizabeth:

The grand jury indictment filed Wednesday accuses Bustamante of killing Elizabeth Olten by strangling her, cutting her throat and stabbing her on Oct. 21 — the day Elizabeth went missing.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/11/18/mo-teen-be-tried-adult-death-girl-9/

Wow that is so sad, and she is so HOT! Wow. What a shame.

JB
www.online-privacy.at.tc

Anon, really? Where does it say anything about videogames? This girl can clearly "tell the difference between killing someone in a computer game and destroying a living human being" seeing as she only did it because she "wanted to know what it felt like." Not because she thought she was a gangster trolling around in Liberty City.

Again, how does any of this information warrant mentioning video games?

Jesse, I think the second grave was for you. Disgusting.

Jesse, you are not only sick, you are also blind.

I read the article linked by Maria and this line stood out to me:

"We are throwing away the child and we are signing a death sentence for Alyssa," Valentine said. "She is not going to survive her time in the Cole County jail."

This was made by a defense attorney. Not sure if it is her attorney or not but REALLY?? This horrid excuse for a "child" SHOULD NEVER walk our streets again. So who really cares if inmates rip her to shreds. I bet she wonders what THAT feels like too!

Wow, I can't believe she was that brutal. But my guessing was right..both stabbed and strangled. Horrible..just horrible. People keep hoping she gets the death penalty. It won't happen because she is a minor, life is what is to be expected as the maximum sentence.

This was such a senseless act. No motive but to 'know how it felt'. Taking the life of a girl that never even knew what it was like to enjoy the little things of childhood..driving for the first time, going to prom. Makes me sick. Me being only 19, it scares me to know what the world will be like when I'm older.

I think Alyssa definitely should NOT be tried in any court. Anybody who wants to kill somebody "just to know what it feels like" is not in a stable state of mind. The article mentions that she tried to commit suicide -- this is proof she was not mentally stable. And even though she was able to keep her grades up, it doesn't mean she was clear headed. Mentally ill people can keep up very convincing facades.

I feel very bad for for parents. What would you do if your child was a murderer? Where missed signs this coudl happen??Just so horrific.

I know people are angry about Elizabeth being killed but we do not know everything about either of the girls, their families or the situation. By no means am I justifying the murder, but hoping that Alyssa "rots in jail" or "gets what is coming to her" is not going to do anything to change what happened. Instead we should focus our thoughts, prayers, and energy into the healing of both families and everyone who was affected. Just my opinion.

why are people so hard on Alyssa? How do you know what kind of life she had? I'm not trying to lessen the tragedy that happened but give the girl a break. She needs counseling. She's only 15 and she can change.

Lynette i am with u all the way i think it couldnt have been said any better...I feel for alyssa but she did what she did and like u said we all know what shes gonna get but what really truly just breaks my heart is the families both families..i dont have a daughter but i have a niece and i love her like one and i couldnt imagine loseing her in such a horrific manner...but i also would NOT know how to go on everyday of my life knowing that my child murdered another and in the Cold way she did. So the way i see it is they both are suffering in the worst of ways and only prayer and support can help in a situation like this....Im soooo saddddddd soooooo sad i feel so bad just horrible....I dont kno............:-(

Miss Bustamante has had intensive in-home counseling and inpatient psychiatric treatment. If that hasn't helped, she's beyond help. Lock her away from society where she can't kill another child.

Alyssa, IMO, was the making of a serial killer. They all start out wanting to know what it "feels like" to kill someone. To watch their lifeforce slip away. They get a thrill, and are energized by taking another's soul. She should be tried as a monster, forget adulthood or child, she's broken, never to be fixed. Those of you that think she can be fixed, think Jeffery Dahlmer, or any other serial killer.

Sure she had good grades. I'm not sure I recall many sociopathic killers to be ingrates, they all display brilliance in some form.

Two graves! thank goodness she didn't have enough time to kill again.

God bless the innocent life of Elizabeth Olten, and her family.

This EVIL monster HAS TO BE PUT TO DEATH!! I don't care how bad (or good) her childhood was, there is NO justification for PREMEDITATED MURDER. The ONLY way that society can be certain this cretin will not murder again (e.g.- in jail) is by implementing the DEATH PENALTY.......

Blake, typical lib, feeling sorry for a violent evil person, who chose to murder someone in cold blood just to see what it felt like

She was sane enough to know to hide the body, to avoid getting in trouble

Put her to death, her victim won't ever get another breath

to HRM, Mark, and others:
Do you recall 2 weeks ago I posted that I believed A. Bustamunte planned and still would like to be the most notorious serial killer in all history?
HRM replied, 'one murder does not a serial killer make'.
Public record today reveals she dug TWO graves that day. (There may be unknown others.)
I promise you, those of us with the so called "gift" to "know" will tell you that this person, AB WOULD have been worse than Jack the Ripper and Elizabeth Olten is a HERO.

Good thing this worthless garbage girl was caught, before she went on to become a serial killer. Were there signs-such as harming/killing animals?

This one should've been aborted. Let's make sure she never reproduces.

If abortion is outlawed-we'll see more crimes of this nature.

Why not give her back to God and let him fix her-she's defective.

Given that this girl *succeeded* in killing someone, I have to wonder if her supposed attempt to take her own life was anything more than a melodramatic gesture.

I remember a case in which a teenager or adolescent killed a classmate "to see what it felt like to kill somebody". This would have been in the nineties or possibly even the eighties. I don't remember any details except for the killer being redheaded and the victim being overweight -- both boys -- and that the killer lured the other boy into the woods under the guise of wanting to be friends, and then beat him to death with a baseball bat. The victim was considerably less popular in school than the killer, who I have to guess targeted him based on the deranged American teenage calculus of who counts in this world and who is expendable or won't be missed. I wonder if Alyssa Bustamante's thinking was similar.

(I also wonder if anyone here knows the case I am talking about...)

Obviously this 15 year old girl is mentally ill. Why does our society imprison mentally ill people? Many of them can be helped. Whereas rapists and child molesters reoffend. The recidivism rate for rapists is 65% and for child molesters from 65% to 95% yet they serve very little time in jail. The average time served for rapists is 5 years and child molesters the same. Women usually serve more time for men for the same type of crime. I pray that this girl receives help.

Dave you asked why is everyone so hard on Alyssa, do you know the nature of the crime and what she did to Elizabeth? this was a scenseless murder, a murder that shouldnt of took place, no matter what happened in Alyssa's past, or how she was raised, at 14 you know right from wrong, she knew what she was going to do, before she did it, she had 2 graves ready, for 2 people, she dug them up, before the murder, do you know how poor Elizabeth died, she 1st strangled her, then that wasnt enough she turned around and then slit her throat, and as poor Elizabeth was dieing, she decided to stab her and watch her die slowly, that is torture, then you ask why is everyone hard on her, well thank god they took her off the street and out of society because she would of ended up filling that other grave. I really do hope, they put her away for life, her past and how she grew up, should have no barring or excuse for what she did.

I bet that second grave was for herself and then she figured that she could play the minor/insanity card. She chickened out on her own suicide.

So what did she say it felt like?
Did she enjoy it?

funny story or funniest story?

BITCH GOT PWNED

gozafa,
A schizophrenic cut off from reality and experiencing delusions and hallucinations deserves consideration of this when they have committed a serious crime (and they should have treatment imposed on them).
A teenager functional enough to earn A's and B's in school, who has friends and social networking accounts, does not qualify as mentally ill in any exonerating way.

Welcome to the Real American comment section. Bashing liberals, promoting execution without trial -- it is a regular Southern BBQ lynch party going on in here! Yee Ha! Go Sarah Palin! Go Real America!

Keep this girl locked up where she belongs. God bless the victims family.

sad, sad event. obviously bustamante was ill in the head. anyone who kills is, some people just need to control their ids (psychologic term, look it up if you want) . but i don't think she should go to jail. and my heart goes out to the the victim's family, it must be hard to give up such a pricless thing as a family member only the age of 9. such horrible things happen sometimes.

Mmmmmmm :]

I literally got sick to my stomach listening to this case tonight on Nancy Grace. I am still in shock that a 15 year old FEMALE murdered a little girl. It is unheard of. Females are not usually killers. If they are killers, they normally are not teenagers who act alone. They usually are grown women who kill due to jealousy or for money. It is so creepy that she dug two graves. I am so glad that she is being tried as an adult, but I doubt she will get the death penalty. I do not think she is mentally ill at all. She is just a plain, old psychopath. Fry the bitch, and don't let her sit on death row for 20 years while it costs us tax payers $40,000 per year to feed her.

I am from the area that Elizabeth Olten lived, in Missouri we are not allowed to execute anyone under the are of 16 no matter what. Alyssa actually had attempted suicide before this ever happened and she had been in therapy she also was on PROZAC, which can make many people do many things they would not normally do, so who knows. Alyssa lived with her grandparents because her father is in prison and her mother has been absent for years because of drugs and trouble with the law. Both girsl father's are in prison and even Elizabeth's brother has been in and out of jail for various offenses. Elizabeth's father has been a person of interest in a women who is still missing Jamie Haslag, whe has been missing a few years and is persumed dead but her body has never been found. I have to wonder how screwed up both of these kids families are.

It's too bad this psychotic piece of shit didnt do the job right when she tried to kill herself. Seriously if you think of killing someone, especially a little kid, stay the hell at home and just kill yourself. I hope someone beats the shit out of this kid in prison. Good riddance.

Put the girl in jail, Life with possibility of parole IF she can actually change. She would be at least 55 before she got out of jail, but I doubt she would. No death penalty, because for one it doesn't work, and two it is way more expensive than life in prison. I'm tired of paying the continuous legal fees for death row inmates, just let the rot in jail. I'd rather us pay $100,000 for them to rot than the $1 million (plus) for the death penalty.

ooooooh wow so in response to what peace said:, i can't believe that i never knew that so that means that the authorities knew about the family history and the neighborhood was not contacted !!!! See the truth comes out hate starts from inside the home thanks guys for the recent comments !!! That supports my every thought !!!!

wow thanks you for that info !!!!

peace said:
I am from the area that Elizabeth Olten lived, in Missouri we are not allowed to execute anyone under the are of 16 no matter what. Alyssa actually had attempted suicide before this ever happened and she had been in therapy she also was on PROZAC, which can make many people do many things they would not normally do, so who knows. Alyssa lived with her grandparents because her father is in prison and her mother has been absent for years because of drugs and trouble with the law. Both girsl father's are in prison and even Elizabeth's brother has been in and out of jail for various offenses. Elizabeth's father has been a person of interest in a women who is still missing Jamie Haslag, whe has been missing a few years and is persumed dead but her body has never been found. I have to wonder how screwed up both of these kids families are.

Posted 11/19/2009 at 12:49:50 AM

its nice that the authories don't educate ppl that their neighbrs family has violent crimes in the history that makes me feel safe , especiallyy since this was elizabeths sisters friend that was in the house playing that same night !!ooooh wow , since when do we as the public not have a choice , i hope elizabeths family sues the fuck out of the state for not giving these ppl a choice to live near , suspected murderers familys there are too many obvious things that ppl should know !!

OVER 50% HAS SOME TYPE OF MENTAL ISSUES...IGNRANCE JUSTIFYS IT , IF A MENTALLY CRAZY PERSON KILLED THERE CHILD THAT OPINION WOULD BE DIFFERENT !!

Dear qwerty,
That Red Headed freak was not popular in school, he was picked on. He was also mentally slow. The little freak beat to death a sweet little boy. This sweet little boy was several years younger than the little freak. After he beat the little boy to death, he poked a stick in side the little boys wounds just for the fun of it. As to the sick PIG that slaughter the nine year old little girl, she should be put to DEATH. She is of no use to society. It is going to cost to much money to feed and house her, not to mention her medical expenses. Child or Adult this world is out of control, it is about time that WE the people take back our neiborhoods, our schools, our children, our hope, and the dreams of what was this nation.

ok people - let's put this in perspective.

First of all - she's f'n hot

Second - she's still f'n hot

Third - the chick is hot, dude

So, before we go executing anyone remember that she's hot!

And let's also remember that Nancy Grace is a giant douche

But I regress - this evil bitch is hot. Evil yes. Going to burn in hell forever, no doubt - but still HOT!!!

To re-cap: this girl is an evil murderer of children and she deserves the most horrible of fates - but she's still hot!!!! MUWAHAHAHA

Guilty - yes
Deserves punishment - Abso-f'ing-lutlely!!!!
But she's only 6 years older then the victim

I don't have a solution for juvenile murderers

But I know that if we lock this girl up now - 30,40,50 years from now - the woman in prison won't have a freaking clue why she's there.

NONE of you are the person you were at 15. I don't have the answer - but life without parole isn't it.

The murderer is a child. It's better to kill her then make her suffer a lifetime in prison - because when she's 60, she will be nothing like the insane child you all dismissed and locked away.

What are your plans in 40 years? What are your plans for your children? Imagine that child born today would be 40 years old - and this girl would still be in prison. Is that justice?

Yes she killed a child - but she is also a child! She's not old enough to drive, to smoke, to drink, or to vote!

Her actions were terrible - inexcusable - but will you take away the rest of her life? If she's not old enough to understand that cigarettes are bad for her - how can she understand murder?

Huh? tough call. I mean, this girl is evil to the bone! But I have to sort of agree with the above comment. Are we ready to take away the next 60+ years of her life? She can't even drive yet! I don't know what to do with her. Can't let her go free - can't keep her locked up forever. Darned tricky situation. Does anyone know anyting about the constitution? Does that say anything about this type of thing?

Scott - I appreciate your sympathy for Alyssa from an adult perspective, but I firmly believe she knows right from wrong. She is not retarded. At 15 you know murder is wrong. At 5 you know murder is wrong. If she thought murder was okay, she would have killed Elizabeth in her house and leave Elizabeth where she lay to be discovered by her family. But she didn't do that. She lured her into the woods and HID the body because she knew it was wrong to kill.

It is justice for her to be in prison for life. Prison is not just for the punishment of the criminal; it is also meant to keep the rest of us SAFE from people like Alyssa. What if she gets out someday and kills your child? We would all say, "The system failed".

I agree with Jennifer said:, the bottom line is the victim, the girl that will never hug her mom again !!! if it was Scott's child killed is opinion would be different !!

The constitution gives ppl that murder a chance to murder again !! but if a dog bites a human the dog gets put down !!ooooh wow!!

scott said the victim is////// 'But she's only 6 years older then the victim" she murdered someone's child !! no excuse ! society enables ppl to do this in 40 yrs she will remember that she killed a child and if she gets a slap on the wrist she will offend again because she would know that she got a break !!

Your emotional points of justice are well founded. American law has always been reactionary, and even the most intelectual scholar knows this cannot change.

More to the point- you're probably right about protecting us (society) from her. If she killed at 15 to see, "what if feels like," what type of monster could she become at 20,30, or 40, years old? Could she be another Adolf Hitler in the making??

I say again - I have NO answer to the question of juvenile justice

But at some point we have to ask ourselves - if a 5 yr old knows murder is wrong (as Jennifer said) then can a 5yr old drive a car? Clearly such logic would prove faulty.

So where do we draw the line beteen childhood and adult?

In my state- last week a 14 year old boy was charged with child pornography for taking naked pictures of his 14 year old girlfriend. The pictures were consensual. A child took pictures of a child. He was charged as an adult. The girl, naturally wasn't charged. The boy, having done nothing more than any 14 year old boy would do - may wind up being labled a sex offender.

Where do we draw the line?

Clearly the 14 year old boy is NOT a sex offender.

Clearly this 15 year old girl IS a murderer.

How do we decide between childhood and adult.

It is illegal for a grown man to engage a 15 year old girl in relations. She is a child under the law. It would be wrong, sinful, and immoral for an adult man to have sex with a 15 year old girl.

But if she commmits murder then she suddenly - and quite swiftly becomes an adult.

We treat them like children. We tell them they are children. But when they break the law we punish them as adults.

1,639 soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan - that were CHILDREN and NOT old enough to drink. They were all over 18 - old enough to die, but not old enough to buy a beer.

This girl killed without mercy. She needs to be punished. But before you condemn her for life - look at the system that you live in. Look at how you are judging her. Is she and adult? Is she a child? How do you make that decision? At some point we need to have consistency....

If you want to punish her for life - you'd better damned well let every 15 year old in this country drive,vote, drink, and live their lives as adults also....

Gavin. You're a moron.

I realize that most of you only understand contemporary justice. You are far too caught up in your own daily lives, tv dance competitions, and america's next top model - to have a firm grip on the formations of our judicial system based on English Common Law.

Likewise, you don't understand the finer points of extemporary law, the finality of conviction, and the precedence of reciprocity in a cultural setting.

Every action has consequences. You see one tradegy now, and you call for blood. That's what peasants do. Kings - naturally answer your demands by offering sacrifice. They give you wars on drugs, terror, or anything you wish in return for obedience.

Kings put children in jail for life - just to make you happy

Crime is ever present in society. Murder is an aspect of crime. You speak of children dying - well, dying is life. We cannot live without death. Murder is terrible - but that's what people do. I direct you to the book of Genesis;Cain and Able....

Luckily for the sake of governments - angry mothers call for blood everytime a child slips and falls. Governments take swift action. Guilty persons are "found" and punished...and the angry mothers temporarily subside.

Ask yourself - why are you angry?

STOP! Don't write back to this post just yet. Chill just for a few minutes and think...is your child REALLY in danger? Is the world REALLY that bad?

The truth is that crime rates drop every year - and it has nothing to do with police or law. Rather, it's all about our standard of living and economy.

You are so quick to judge this girl. She IS guilty and she NEEDS to be dealt with. But your call for blood echos of the Roman arena...and the Pharisees' calls for the crucifixion of the Christ.

You're frightened by something that's beyond you. This girl killed and you don't know why. You are a good person and you don't understand murder. She murdered, so rather then help her - you throw her away. What would Jesus do????? If it was up to you, He wouldn't do anything....you're the same mindset that nailed him to a cross, people afraid of the unknown...

You want to be better, you want to teach your children to be better - but you're too frightened to take the true steps of Jesus. Open yourselves up to forgive and maybe..just maybe....you might find the path you're looking for.

Condemning a 15 year old girl, will NOT get you there...

Scott, lets not forget that our Bible also tells us that we are to obey the laws of our land. I believe the perspective of the Bible causes us to understand there will be consequences in this world for our sin (as well as on the day we are eternally judged). Its how we deal with these consequences that matters. Alyssa is to accept the fate of her trial and punishment...even if it was death penalty (which I understand it cannot be due to her age). Jesus' main point here would not be to protect her from the law, nor from this forum's opinions. It would be to impress upon her heart conviction of her sin. Its not a matter of throwing her away. Its her facing her consequences. And those consequences (the law) must be in place.

Sandy,
Thanks for the extra background info on the "redheaded freak" and the sweet little boy. Do you have any names or locations or any keywords so I could google for more background on that case?
Thanks.

"I realize that most of you only understand contemporary justice. You are far too caught up in your own daily lives, tv dance competitions, and america's next top model - to have a firm grip on the formations of our judicial system based on English Common Law."

Wow, who taught you that condescension was the way to convince people of your point? "Look at me! I'm smart and you, well, have a myopic view of the world. Listen to me!" Trust me, if you want people to hear you, don't talk down to them.

Look, I think it is clear that the law doesn't know how to deal with violent criminals who also happen to be children. There are no easy answers. But putting her in the juvenile system where her record will be hidden and releasing her at twenty one is NOT an option. The juvenile system is not built for this type of crime. She murdered a helpless girl in cold, premeditated blood. So you have to charge her as an adult. And to charge her with anything other than first degree murder in light of what she did would be a mockery of justice. I think she should be convicted of first degree murder, and then in the sentencing phase, lower it to life with the possibility of parole. Hopefully she would remain in prison until she is forty or fifty. If she has been a model prisoner for over twenty years and expresses genuine remorse, I think parole would be appropriate.

I am stunned to know this type of thing even crosses a childs mind. I can not imagine what the victims parents are feeling.. I definitely think she should spend the rest of her natural life in prison without the possibility of parole...

If Alyssa Bustamante actually did commit the crime (and I believe she did), I hope that she's given a life sentence. She was obviously on her way to becoming a serial killer, and the last thing we need is to have her back out on the streets.

To Amanda (the first person to comment on this story).

Did you proofread your comment before posting it? because let me tell you that you come across just as bad as Alyssa looks for killing the little girl: "I'm thinking strangulation, possibly stabbed? If she wanted to know 'how it felt', then strangulation is my guess. It's extremely personal. Their face is right infront of you and you see the life leave their body". How in the world do you know this???!!! Have you ever seen someone being stranguled? Wow you really weren't thinking and you wrote this! shame; shame SHAME!

But anyhow! this is a super sad story and it looks like Alyssa, isn't "all there" if, you know what I mean! I feel bad for both girls and of course their families!

Ever watch Lockup Raw? On msnbc. Killers TALK about how strangulation is a personal crime, crime of passion because of how close you have to be next to the person you are killing. THAT is how I know. On E! there was a story about the older sister in the Poltergiest movie that was strangled by her ex boyfriend, they were all saying it was a PERSONAL crime of passion because strangulation is very close and tends to take longer to do, then standing ten feet back and shooting someone. That was all I was saying. I am no way a killer or anything like Alyssa. I was giving my personal opinion, just like every other comment on here. Thank you for your response though.

And everyone needs to STOP with the death penalty bs. She is still TOO young to recieve that punishment. Life is probably what is going to happen as the maximum penalty. But they'll probably only give her 20+

OH..and Scott, you were saying "She's not old enough to drive, to smoke, to drink, or to vote!" Neither was ELIZABETH. Alyssa had a choice, and she made it. Now she must face the consequences.

Just throwin in my 2 cents.

-Amanda.

Alyssa was in a VERY DARK PLACE. Everyone has the potential to be in either the dark or light. Succumbing to that fundamental darkness means to give in to life's innate ignorance and doubt the true potential and nobility of human life. If that happens, we come to doubt our own selves and remain ignorant or defiant of the fact that we, as well as others, are fundamentally noble and respectworthy. She used that destructive tendency in the hearts of those in positions of power (bigger, older, more advantageous) that caused her to explot and manipulate Elizabeth for selfish reasons. This expressed her ignorancy, self centeredness, and disregard for others.

Robin,,I do remember you posting that about her trying to be the most popular serial killer,and as Jadensmokes I think it was said,,along with others,that all serial killers start out just like she did..(to see what it feels like),

And as far as Mr.Valentine said,,"to sentance her to life in prison would (basecly) end in her either commiting suicide, or gettin killed by other inmates". Well Mr. Valentine,,What is "life in prison without parole" but being there till ya die,,Whether it's 30-60 years,,or 30-60 minutes,,Thats life in prison without parole, as defined by the judge,and the law. If she commits suicide in jail,or gets killed by someone else,justice will have been served,,That is ofcorse,if she truly did kill Elizabeth. But there's something missing in this case that bothers me to no end,,It's just going waaaaaay too easy. Too many things are being "covered up" I believe..This is only my opinion ofcorse.

It's hard to believe that this girl who is 15 murdered a child just because she wanted to know what it felt to kill someone. Robin and Delilah, I too believe she was going to continue killing. After all, she dug two graves. Who was the other grave for and how many more graves where next? Then you have how Elizabeth was murdered. Three different forms of death! Was Alyssa doing research for her next victim? How sick is that?

I say kill her. She's old enough. I have nothing else to say except: kill her.

So, AB was on Prozac, and had been in treatment for trying to kill herself. Looks like neither of our typical solutions for a tortured, demented or delluded mind worked for this girl. Those of you saying she needs treatment and help, it hasn't worked. This girl is broken beyond being fixed, 20, 30, 40 years from now, unless some new drug becomes available or she has a frontal lobotomy, she will still be broken beyond being fixed.

O/T -The red headed boy was either in Mississippi or Florida if I remember correctly.

Mark, are you referring to the teacher and his suicide, or have you formulated any thoughts in the direction of something being amiss or being covered up?

For every action, there is a reaction. Whether it is our reaction, or others. We all have choices, no one can make or chose our choices for us. Anyway, when the government took control of our children, that is when we lost control of our children. What do I mean by that. Well, allow me to explain please. When we had the authority to discipline our child. (NOT ABUSE. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO). The jails and graves were became fuller than ever from young adults and teenagers. When you discipline, not abuse, a child now, all the child has to do is call 911, and you, as the parent ends up going to jail/facing charges. To an extent, I really blame the system for the way that a lots of our teenagers and young adults have turned out. There is NOTHING that I can say that justifies this little girl losing her life, and the child that did the killing, but, I will say, what happenes to the child that did the killing is NOT our call. We "ALL" are so quick to say what we would do, what needs to be done, until it happens to us. None of us really know what we will do, if and when it happens to us. I hope and really pray that all that are reading this, that it never happens to you. For all that are trying to crucify this child, what if, just what if it was your child or a very close loved one that commited this crime?????????? I can tell that some of you are still young and have no children, from your conversations. Just remember, for those of you with children and those of you whom have none as of yet, we dont know what our child will or wont do. We dont know what is going on in the next persons mind, not "EVEN" our "CLOSE" loved ones. I pray for both families for strength for forgiveness.

On the surface, this crime is shocking- especially to those of us who could never commit it. But if we were able to dig deeper, we'd probably find a girl who has not been mentally or emotionally balanced for some time. Things like this don't happen out of pure curiosity, there is some driving force that has been working behind the scenes for probably years. There's never any guarantee that she would improve with treatment as we don't know how deep the issues run. I tend to believe that people like her aren't born, they are created through their life experiences. Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. There would be just as many "good" people kept from entering the world as there would be bad.

Jadensmokes..both really,,it just seems to me that there are too many "wgat if's" in this case,and it seems to be goin way soo easy,and fast,,it's almost like they're not lookin at things that should be looked at,,either or,,they aint tellin all they know.which i'm sure of,,like,,if Alyssa cut her throat,after choking her,that would be before she died,,therefore blood would be on her clothes, and why was nothing mentioned about blood..why did the G-parents take her to St Louis the night Elizabeth dissapeared? where is the boyfriend,,( I heard he helped her dig the graves,) ((which is probably rumor))..but things like this..too many "what if's" in here. also,,I heard (again,rumor probably) that her Gpa,,told her younger sister,,"go in the house,and don't talk to the cops" whats up here,,it's almost like i'm watchin TV,,like a crime story,,where the girl ends up bein in a situation where she's "possibly" under somebody elses control,almost like she's covering up for someone,what if she is..just a theory. but worth thinkin about.

Mark, thanks for the reply. Interesting, I'll have to do some additional reading and thinking along those lines. Some things I had not heard or read that could possibly be rumour as you stated. Funny though, the rumor that I've read thus far has panned out to be reported as fact later in time.

Yes,they have,,i understand that there's somebody on here that has very close ties to either one or both families,,not sure tho,,just IMP ,also IMP,,i somehow gotta think,,she had to be much stronger than she looks,to "physically" do the things they say she did,,especially,if she killed her elsewhere,and had to get her to the grave,and then get back home without notice. surely there would be at the least mud all over her clothes,,it'd been raining for the whole of a week before Elizabeth went missing..surely she had help,,or "was" the help,,that's what i think anyhow..cofrse,,i could be wrong.

I believe the red-headed child murderer you're thinking of is Eric Smith.

In 1993, at the age of 13, he killed 4 year old Derrick Robie.

this girl is pure evil and nothing you do can change evil. She probably had someone else help maybe a santanist cult. The evil cults are coming up everywhere so beware..

The rumors need to stop and also the "what if's". No reason to speculate nor assume.Facts are out and Allysa Bustamante is a murderer. She is to be tried as an adult due to the malicious, premeditated crime she committed on her own. Don't you realize that if Allysa had assitance with the brutal murder of Elizabeth that those people would also be arrested and charges file against them. I don't believe Allysa was under the control of another person. She acted alone and admitted it. That's a totally ridiculous theory in this case. Please stop the BS and stick with the facts. Mark, everything you said is not worth thinking about. Are you a juvenile? Sure sound like one to me.

What "facts"? I concider "facts" the same as "evidence" and not 1 piece of it have i seen,or you. So for you to sit here and say,(Alyssa Bustemante is a murderer" is as much "speculation" as you accuse me of. she's 15 years old,,they lie,,think man,think!!!or woman.
becides..WHAT IF I'M RIGHT,,,i'm gonna keep my eyes on this case daily,,just "incase".. have a good day,dad.

The girl confessed and said she murdered the other girl to "See what it felt like". That is evidence...15 year olds lie to get OUT of trouble not into it

Justin...
Maybe your white parents should be arrested for having such a stupid kid. the correct spelling is black Justin.

Justin, you idiot. How about the Nazi's when they murdered 6 million Jews? they were white. The most infamous dictator in modern history was a white man. Many serial killers in America were white.

Does race have to do with it? No. So don't try to pin this on black people, you moron.

if a girl says "i killed someone" that is not evidence,,its hearsay..and i agree broomstick,100%.this has absolutely nothing to do with any race, or color.

p.s. kids also lie for lots of other reasons,like to protect somebody? or to get what they want,like attention? shall i go on?nahh,,no need.

This was a premeditated act of murder against a defenseless child. If it were the act of mentally deficient person, why not chose an adult to murder to see what it was like? She chose a child. Lured her into the woods. To a pre-dug grave in a spot where she would not be found. That speaks of both shame and guilt, else she would have been left in the open. This girl knew what she was doing. Mentally ill people aren't this well-organized in their thinking. I work with the mentally ill as a trained therapist for the past 25 years. This kid has a personality disorder, which disorders are NOT fixed by therapy, medications, or hospitilizations. She is a danger to society and should be removed from society. She will not be rehabilitated. Personally, I would prefer that she be put to death. Age 15 is completely over the age of accountability if you study personality development. Of course, for you that would like to see her rehabilitated, send her your address and let her come to live with you. Not me!

I've just turned 16 so hear me out here, I'm a completely different person than I was nearly a year ago. I did stupid things that I wouldn't do again, I've grown as a person, have grown an appreiciation for life, realized things I havn't before, I've learned from my past mistakes and they've made me a better person. Fact is, at 15 I was an immature child and was so out of it, I didn't think about what I was doing or the consequences.

How many people in their 20's or 30's were the same person they were when they were 15?

Alyssa's has lived with her grandmother for years, her mother's been absent and a drug abuser, her brother has been in and out of jail, her dad's in prison for a fellony. Alyssa attempted suicide at the age of 13, cuts and has been on antidepressants. What she needs is empathy not condemnation.

Lots of people look down on prostitution, however an interesting statistic is that 95% of teen/young adult prostitutes have been sexually abused as children.

I think deep down Alyssa's a sweet girl who suffers from suicidal depression that has led her to commit this horrible crime. Trying this 15 year old child as an adult is wrong, no matter how heinous her crime. It makes her no less of a child and she deserves forgivness and accpetence.

Before anyone says "Elizabeth will never have a second chance again" fact is she's gone and there is nothing that can be done about it. What should be the focus is rehabilitating Alyssa and giving her a second chance, just like we would want for Elizabth.

Or maybe we should just throw everyone in jail, just to be safe, sense everyone is capable of killing someone.

Just because it sounds good and feels good doesn't make it true.
Personality disorders cannot be rehabilitated.

If so, then anti-socials (of which she may be one) can be rehabilitated, ; sociopaths can be rehabilitated (think of Dahmer and the BTK killer).
The DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statisical Manual of Mental Disorders) explains ASPD as follows; “a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15.” It then goes on to list 7 characteristics, which if you are unfamiliar with the disorder may not explain it very well.

Here’s the general profile of an Anti-Social:

1. Incapable of feeling empathy and/or remorse for others
2. Engages in “parasitic” relationships, “uses” people and then discards them
3. Extreme difficulty dealing with stress and/or anxiety, easily becomes aggressive
4. Superficial charm and/or affect. Seems like they’re “faking it”
5. Manipulative. There is a motive behind everything they do
6. Limited range of emotions, basically anger is about it, and even then they typically only show it through physical displays and cannot express it through words
7. Inability to accept consequences and/or responsibility for their actions
8. A sense of entitlement and/or grandiosity
Personality disorders are pervasive chronic psychological disorders, which can greatly affect a person's life. Having a personality disorder can negatively affect one's work, one's family, and one's social life. Personality disorders exists on a continuum so they can be mild to more severe in terms of how pervasive and to what extent a person exhibits the features of a particular personality disorder. While most people can live pretty normal lives with mild personality disorders (or more simply, personality traits), during times of increased stress or external pressures (work, family, a new relationship, etc.), the symptoms of the personality disorder will gain strength and begin to seriously interfere with their emotional and psychological functioning.

Those with a personality disorder possess several distinct psychological features including disturbances in self-image; ability to have successful interpersonal relationships; appropriateness of range of emotion, ways of perceiving themselves, others, and the world; and difficulty possessing proper impulse control. These disturbances come together to create a pervasive pattern of behavior and inner experience that is quite different from the norms of the individual's culture and that often tend to be expressed in behaviors that appear more dramatic than what society considers usual. Therefore, those with a personality disorder often experience conflicts with other people and vice-versa. There are ten ... http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_index.php?id=8

Nothing is being said about "throwing everyone into jail. "Yes, everyone is CAPABLE of killing another (I would in self-dense or in defense of someone I loved), but this girl was doing neither. She planned this. Healthy people have something called impulse control that keeps them from doing so.

This girl doesn't have it. Therefore, she is a danger to society.

I agree with Gavin - she is a bad girl but hot!

Emily Dear...the difference between you growing and maturing in a healthy and normal way is in stark contrast to Alyssa, and her desire to know what it feels like to take a human life and exstinguish it. Seriously, have you ever had thoughts of what it would be like to take another's life? This girl had those thoughts. Not only did she have them, but had them for quite a while if she was able to dig 2 graves, plan it out and finally execute it. She's not normal. She's broken. You sound like a healthy, happy, normal (as happy as a 16 year old can be with all the angst that goes with that age)teen. Please, for the love of life, don't compare yourself to her. You are way farther advanced in compassion and empathy, logic and reason than this girl will ever be.

FYI, Alyssa's father is in jail, her brothers are not. Her mother is a drug abuser and is MIA, she lived with her siblings and her grandparents. She had a swimming pool and was involved with horses at the home. She had much more than many. Do not feel sorry for her. She did more than make a bad judgement. She plotted, planned and executed a heinous murder for her own enjoyment.

It was Elizabeth whose father and brother are in prison.

Melissa Huckaby may be facing the death penalty for "raping Sandra Cantu with a foreign object", kidnapping and murder. Everyone ASSUMED it was a man, screaming for his death. And now this. Women should face the same fate.

Everyone is missing the point.Alyssa was totally in the right. Shit happens she's an attractive young smart girl. Give her probation. Clearly she did it for the lulz i think everyone just needs to appreciate what she's done for this country.

"jadensmokes"... the difference between Ms. Alyssa and I is that I have a normal family life, my parents love me very much and I don't have any mental illnesses.

If I was in Alyssa's situation, I don't know how I'd take it as people and their situations are different and are taken differently.

I do think Ms. Alyssa knew what she was doing and knew the consequences, however I also think she suffers from suicidal depression and killing this girl, in anticipation of being caught, was a way for her to throw a part of her own self away. Maybe dashed with a little attention-seeking and teen rebellion I doubt her problems are any worse than that.

Alyssa is a child and she should be treated as one, she can definitely be helped, rehabilitation is much more suitable than prison.

Emily, upon what training and experience do you say that she "definitely can be helped"? Other than your personal opinion.....age age 16?

And, no, she is not a child. Far from it. She is an adolescent, not a helpless child. She killed a child. A helpless child. Childhood ends approximately around age 13.

She gave up her right to claim a childhood when she CHOSE to give up her innocence to become a murderer. Emily Suddeth...please! For forgiveness, first one must ASK for that. Acceptance? No one should accept cold blooded, preplanned, violent murder of an innocent. A "sweet" girl as you called her would not stab a little girl to death and bury the body in the woods. That is not the act of a sweet misunderstood girl. I don't wish harm on her...just that she is kept away from those of us who don't think it is part of normal growing pains to kill other people.

If anyone deserves the death sentence its this one.
Obviously her attorney will plead insanity though...which i partly agree with.
I feel terrible for the family of the 9-year-old

Since this psycho strangled, cut and stabbed little Elizabeth, I think she deserves the same except she should bed tortured very slowly.

IMO, the only excuse to be taken into consideration in a murder case is either, 1. self defense, or 2. being developmentally disabled. Obviously this 15yr old was not doing it in self defense and with all the testing and A & B's in school she is not DD. There is a FINE LINE between insanity and genius. The girl planted the body in a premeditated location that was searched and the body MISSED! Hello! She knew exactly what the heck she was doing. I think that while she is definitely messed up in the head, she is NOT an idiot. Look at the serial killers throughout history... it wasn't dumb luck then and it isn't now. I don't think mental health is going to 'fix' her although she does need therapy. For the sake of the liberal, tree hugging, Pro-Lifers out there we cannot kill her. I think the only repercussion that is fitting is trial as an adult with the same sentencing that an adult would receive for premeditated murder and keeping in mind possible intent to commit additional murders(remembering that there were TWO graves dug). In a vindictive world, the family and loved ones of the poor girl that was killed should be allowed to seek retaliation in any way they see fit. My personal favorite, just like with rapists and child molesters, they should be allowed in a room with her no questions asked, no consequences.

Oh, another thing, while genetics/environment can determine the type of person that you become, we must all remember that she may be predisposed to violent tendencies due to reports about her family but that does not mean she will be like anyone else in her family. How many families do you know that has one person in it that just seem like they were born to the wrong people?! Why do you think we have the phase 'black sheep of the family'.

Just my opinion...

My thoughts and prayers do go out to the family, friends and loved ones of the poor girl that was killed in this senseless act.

Humm... Do you consider having a father in jail, a mother on drugs, and being dumped at grams house the norm way to grow up?

Alyssa must ask for forgivness? Says who? Did you know a much better phrase shepard men coined was "hate the sin, love the sinner" what do you think about that one?

Alyssa's crime doesn't make her any less of a human being, the fact is, at 15, I don't even think she grasped the weight of it.

She needs councelling, she can change, rehabilitation, probation. At 15 you havn't even figured yourself out yet give her a chance to grow up. Yah, She killed a child but she is still a child her self and it would be devastating to see 2 children's lives lost here.

I am completely shocked at anyone on this blog that thinks this freak of a monster should not be tried as an adult. She should be KILLED period!!! THere is NO FIXING this sick thing!!! Do you honestly think any amount of counceling or drugs is going to help this RABID sorry excuse for a human??? I would NEVER allow this sicko anywhere near my daughters EVER!! To those of you that feels sorry for her and feels that she can be "helped" you take her to a desserted island and you sleep next to her. SHe is the type that will eat YOU WHILE you are asleep. OMG. PUT HER TO DEATH just like she did to that innocent real child......EYE FOR AN EYE BABY!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I spelled Deserted wrong...sorry, typing fast...small child in lap too...lol plus a bit shocked at all of this.

Here's a thought...When some loser wants to off herself....LET HER!!! Better yet, help her do it. Murder is another form of suicide. These people don't care to live so killing her is giving her exactly what she wanted. She should spend the rest of her life in jail to suffer the monstrosities that she deserves. If you kill her now you'll just put her out of her misery. She deserves to be miserable!!

Emily Suddeth, is this you? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74737

Is this why you are supporting this adolescent? If so,
are you talking about her, or you? Just curious.

YOu know, that being suicidal or depressed is that this girl's problem, don't you? Her problems are way beyond that. What she has can't be cured by therapy, or medication. However, someone who is depressed can be helped with both.

If this is you, make sure you aren't mixed your and her problems up. You're not her, and she's not you. She's way beyond the pale of what this Emily Suddeth is about. That Emily Suddeth can get help and benefit from it. This Alyssa can't.

Edit: Left a word out. Sentence should read: You know that being suicidal or depressed is NOT this girl's problem, don't you?

I find Miss Suddeth's comments rudimentary and extremely naive. When I was 15 yrs old, I didn't always know the consequences of my immature actions, but I did know right from wrong. At 15 yrs old, I knew murder was wrong. At the naive age of 16, your experience and insight allows you to believe she that AB is just a child who did a bad thing but she can be fixed and rehabilitated. Go spend some time in the real world. She dug two graves and planned the murder. What a depraved, antisocial Individual AB is. BTW, anti-social personalities can't be fixed or rehabilitated. They are born that way and are incapable of change; it's a well documented fact.

Emily,

You think she should get therapy, rehab and probation? What do you think she did, sell drugs at school, steal some lipgloss and thongs from Victoria's Secret or borrow the parent's car without permission? Probation for MURDER? You're a tad bit insane.

I guess that people can be born with anti-social personalities but they are also induced during a person's childhood. If you think that people are born with anti-social personalities and cannot be helpd then why should they be punished for their actions; that does not make sense. :)

I DO think that suicidal depression is part of Alyssa's problem. She knew the consequences for her crime and desired them, just out of pride; no. "Just to see what it felt like" is indicative of it being about her. On the other hand, Alyssa appears to me to be nothing more than a normal teenager but instead of snorting crack to be cool she killed a girl.

Alyssa does have problems and she can be helped, what she did was awful at 15 I don't think she sees it as what it is, I'm not saying she shouldn't be punished but a teenager just shouldn't be tried as an adult.

Emily,

Where are you coming from? A large percentage of people in prison are those with antisocial/sociopathic personality disoders. Do some research and you'll see the statistics. If you think they should be free and not held accountable for their actions, you are a naive fool.

Your ridiculous comment,

"She knew the consequences for her crime and desired them, just out of pride; no. "Just to see what it felt like" is indicative of it being about her.

IF she knew the consequences, even more reason to keep her out of society. She is a frightening individual.

Your other brilliant comment,

"On the other hand, Alyssa appears to me to be nothing more than a normal teenager but instead of snorting crack to be cool she killed a girl.

Instead of snorting crack to be cool, she killed a girl."

It is obvious you are only 16 years old by your dense, vapid comments; I am stupified by your reasoning.

How sad to think that someone can say that a "normal" teenage kills a girl. Just like trying on a new dress. How terribly sad.......and scary! Sounds like the movie "Clockwork Orange." Never thought I'd see the day.

And, "normal" teenagers smoke crack? No way, Jose. Girl, you've got some problems with your own thinking. I'm a chemical dependency counselor as well. You are headed for some serious, serious consequences of your own.

If you've wanted attention, you've gotten it.

I'm outta here. Don't believe in rewarding wrong behavior.

"Humm... Do you consider having a father in jail, a mother on drugs, and being dumped at grams house the norm way to grow up? "

That is normal... for MANY people. Cry me a friggin river. My mother was in and out of jail, a severely violent alcoholic and drug addict. She would shoot up in front of me and had sex with men she didn't even know and then pass out, leaving them in the apartment with me (you connect the dots). We were homeless several times, sleeping in 24 hour laundromats or in the car. My father wasn't in the picture at all. Sometimes my mom would go to jail or leave me behind for a week or more (between the gaes of 6 and 10) and the cops would be called and they would take me to my grandparents. They were good to me and loved me, but when my mom would come back around, they would give me back to her. I have old fractures that never healed properly and scars from cigarette burns on my body. My mother was an animal with a verified diagnosed personality disorder. Childhood was a nightmare for me.

But guess what? I have never thought about what it would be like to kill a random stranger. (I did sometimes think about what it would be like to kill the men my mother had around, but never went so far as to plan anything or actually take any action). I know right from wrong, and I knew right from wrong for as long as I can remember, even in my screwed up situation. I'm 33 now, have 3 kids, don't drink, use drugs, or abuse my kids. I am SO sick of people using their "crappy" childhood as an excuse for committing horrible acts of evil.
NONE of the rehab programs or jail sentences made ANY real impact on my mother's behavior. Medication dulled her, but did not make her want to make better decisions. Her drug abuse eventually caught up with her and she became very sick with Hep C, and she had an OD that caused her to have a heart-attack, and that eventually slowed her down. Now all she is able to do is sit around and make nasty remarks about others... she is too weak to be a physical threat. My point though, is these kind of people do NOT change their thinking deep inside.
Yes, they are "broken", but that doesn't mean they can be fixed. I broke a vase once, but was able to super-glue it back together. I once broke a dish, and it was so broken that it had to be disposed of. Is it sad when someone has a crappy childhood and appears that they "didn't have the same chance as 'normal' people"? Yes... but sympathy is a useless sentiment. A lot of people felt sorry for me when they discovered how I was treated... all that sentiment and $2.50 will get me a cup of coffee.
Life is what you make it. Choices and natural consequences.

I do not think she should be charged as an adult.
Shes a 15 year old girl * As am I*
Her brain and the thoughts the go throught it are not fully matured, even if she wrote them down.

You can tell someone something is wrong, but since their brain is yet to be fully developed they WILL NOT get the whole concept of of the wrongness of the crime.

Shes a 15 year old girl, remember that.

Im sure that prison is full of people with antisocial/sociopathic personality *DISORDERS*. I'm asking why you think they should be punished if you think they are BORN THAT WAY AND CANNOT HELP IT as opposed to recieving help? I am not, however, suggesting that they should'nt be contained if they are a danger to society and have a likelihood of reoffending, sorry I can see how that was not clear and was confusing.

It's been made clear that people think antisocial/sociopathic personalies are beyond help, like a person born with a mental disability, then what's the point of condemning them? Vegance? Try to make sense people. Are you trying to say that people with these disorders have more of a likelihood of choosing to commit a crime?

I think that quite a few people with antisocial/sociopathic personality disoders are victums themselves.

Do you know of Mary Belle Flora, 11 year old girl who murdered 2 young boys? Shoking? Who she believed to be her father was a criminal. Her mother was a prostitute, had her when she was 16 and used Mary as a sex prop when she was a was a little child. Mary was released from imprisonment in her early 20's, had a child, and hasn't reoffended in the 30 years she's been free.

Condemntion is not a deterrent of crime just like the death penalty isn't. Peace and Love is.

It's been made quite clear that killing once turns a person into a serial killer, perfectly understandable. When that person is under 18 however they have more of a chance of being rehabilitated. Alyssa isn't exactly coming from the perfect situations here and I think that should be considered to her advantage.

It seems to me that people are misjudging Alyssa's mentality, 'lyssa didn't care about the consequences of her crime infact I bet she was anticipating them, why do I think that? Because she has suicidal depression and doesn't give a damn what happens to her. Will she be this way in the next 5 years, DOUBTFUL..

Don't be so judgmental and hard on Alyssa I bet part of the reason for her problems is the fact she is a teenager, her depression, rebelling or some sh!t like that none of it is a reason to try her as an adult.

I am a 36 yr old man and understand the commnets by Emily. She is a young, stupid 16 yr old kid with no wordly experience. I am more disturbed by this dumb girls thinking and rationalizations that I am of the murderess. GET SOME SERIOUS HELP EMILY-YOU DEFINTAELY NEED IT!!!!!

PS/If you are 16 Emily-shouldn't you be learning something in school?

"Bustamante's also dabbled in goth stuff. Usually that just means nerdy kids wearing black and trying to find cool in their own social group." Sorry that statement made me wonder if a 12 year old wrote this or a full grown adult. Using immature labels in a serious situation is laughable but then anyone who looks "dark" is goth? That was the most stupid, immature insulting statement I have ever read. Write like a professional, please. FFS. As to that Alyssa chick, f*Ck her. She needs to burn and let's all forget about HER. She's locked up, she had mental help before, she didnt go on with it and refused to get help? That's her problem but the adults in her life obviously sucked as well. You gotta recieve help or people will just think you enjoy being a pyscho.

I agree with MIKE H. all the way !! Elizabeth was 9 yrs old , her mother will never hold her bby in her arms again !! Being born mentally disabled is fine, but killers being giving chances based illness or age puts us as society in DANGER ! Having a mental illness like that can not be excused treatment is not going to help . Kids now a days think they can murder and be tried as children . This girl 15 , is smart she did research i'm sure , dug 2 graves , carried the body. A teenager making statements on the MURDER"S defense has no place , because it wasn't her CHILD that was killed ! A dog bites we put him to sleep but if a child kills we send them to juvi where they get the luxury of eating 3 meals a day ( more than some inncoent ppl get) , clean clothes, 4 smokes a day like someone else stated, CABLE TV ( i don't even have cable) a education .Sounds like a reward compaared to the life she led before! Sounds like maybe she killed a innocent girl maybe as a cry for help ! Just so she could live the good life , well ya know that doesn't sound like something a DISABLED person would do , it sounds like something a brilliant person did with no regard for her victim. Sure we all have hard lives . Both my parents left me in a Colombian orphanage to die , if anything it gave me substance and it taught me how to be a better parent due to that experience. We all have choices . She is a prime example of ignorance in society and the reason why society is so messed up is cause everyone justifies the situation oh well "johnny" slapped his mom, oooh he is only 3 which turns into ohh "johnny" 25 beats his wife , we can all agree that the parents are at fault for enabling her to become a monster.Which is a huge prob. in america. We can also agree that authorties did not keep close eye or educate the neighborhood bout whaat kind of family history is living hear their " KIDS". I mean this girl was in the victims house , that is scary . Its scary that she showed all these signs of fucked up behavior and she was not commited before she commited the crime. Most ppl who commit murders are veryvery educated . She knew that she was a minor and based on her family history she fig. she would just choose the insanity plea. Being insane and having mental issues not the same , me and my bro that were neglected in a orphanage rocked ourselves to sleep , had detatchment disorder , does that mean we want another person to suffer that " NO".

http://adoption.about.com/od/guidereviews/fr/childcalledit.htm

Besides being horribly beaten, Dave was forced to eat his own vomit, swallow soap, ammonia, and Clorox. This was just the beginning of his mother's "games." Dave's childhood wasn't always a nightmare. There were the "good years" in the beginning and Dave devotes a chapter describing the feelings of warmth and safety provided by his mother. By the age of 4 these feelings were replaced with fear, starvation and lowliness.

"I was the King"

The "I" statement is used a lot in A Child Called "It" as Dave discovers the power he felt when he stalled his mother from burning him on the stove and "won." Trying to find food, making plans, and succeeding with the prize of eating frozen dinners from his family's deep freeze, Dave was proud of his accomplishments and used the statement, "I was the king." This goes to show the level of neglect he endured to consider frozen dinners to be a prize and hiding in the family's garage to gobble them up. These are less than kingly accommodations.

A Child Called "It" doesn't leave the reader empty as we know that the child survived this abuse. We begin with the rescue and then are led through the happy times, and then into the abuse.

The book is written from the perspective of a child. It is eye-opening to see how Dave perceived the treatment of his mother, as she didn't treat Dave's other brothers this way, and how the abuse impacted his self-worth. Yet, Dave still had this incredible will to not only survive, but to rise above it all.

Dave Pelzer entered foster care at the age of 12 due to the severe abuse he endured at the hand of his alcoholic mother. The abuse became so terrible that she actually started referring to Dave as "The Boy," instead of a child, her son, or Dave. At the age of 18 Dave aged out of the foster care system and joined the U.S. Air Force.

Dave has won many awards and personal commendations from Presidents Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and George W. Bush. In 1993, Dave was honored as one of the Ten Outstanding Young Americans. In 1994, he became one of the only United State's citizens to be awarded as the Outstanding Young Persons of the World, for his efforts in teaching about child abuse and it's prevention. Dave is also the author of The Lost Boy, A Man Named Dave, The Privilege of Youth, Help Yourself, and Help Yourself for Teens.

Today Dave is a husband and a father and resides in Rancho Mirage, California.

.........................................................

The 15 yr old murder does not have business being out on the streets again . If tried as a child she would be out in her 20's , ppl molest small children they get out in 5 yrs to molest again " dateline" NBC , prime example ppl get caught and do it again , this one guy was a highschool teacher. " SICK" then went back to the school the next day til dateline told the school !! In foreign contries you steal they chop off your hand , here in AMERICA theift is a big issue us the tax payers have to suffer because ppl steal & steal . Certain parents don't pay child support and the kids suffer, or they just pawn thier kids off to the elderly grandparents . Regardless the reason why ppl commit crimes like this is because they are raised to be selfish . The education system doesn't teach kids "intercultural communication" and wonder why these children are not respectful adults. HOW IS SELF ESTEEM AND POSTIVE CONFLICT , OR IMPACT CLASSES NOT NECESSARY! I realize that it is the parents job to teach their kids values and such but in over 50% of households that does not happen , and hate crimes occur! Saying ooooh she is only 15 she doesn't know what she did is a " EXCUSE" another reason why she would be "ENABLED" to kill again.
The "CHILD" was ELIZABETH ! Many ppl don't stop and think hmmmmm what if that was my child , or grandchild , or brother. Would i want this person to be able to get help and go free, knowing ELIZABETH is dead !!! A 15 yr old is old enough to do a lot of things , and murder is one of them . Taking this situation lightly will just open the doors wider to " MURDERERS" thinking it is okay. Think about why their are so many child molestrs , or pastors that molest , because " cause & affect " says society is justifying the act, this 15 yr old monster, will grow to be a smarter killer and maybe not get caught if able to try again!!! Sure life is hard , the economy has spent trillions of dollars on war "VIOLENCE" 2 parent households are forced to work, having many kids raise themselves . NOW DON'T YOU THINK THAT A LOT OF HATE CRIMES COULD BE PREVENTENTED WITH MORE $$ PUT INTO THE SCHOOLS , MORE $$ ON HOW TO EVOLVE AS A HUMAN OR ADULT !!! THE KEY TO SUCCESS IS EDUCATION, THE KEY TO FAILURE IS IGNORANT CHILDREN, A'S AND B'S HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF COMMON SENSE OR MORALS A PERSON HAS. I hope they throw away the key or she just is so disgusted by her acts she off's herself !! Mostly because the victim could have been one of ours!!! This 15 yr old girl , feels like a celebrity and that is exactly what she wanted. Elizabeth will never breath again and ppl are saying think of the teenage monster ! lol , its sad how ppl think when its not about them!!! My heart goes out to the familyy of ELIZAbeth. In some asian countries they have respect they are high on not "defacing" a person here we don't care what we say or do or how it effects anyone ! Family values are fading this is a " individualist" society . So sad that no one realizes the highest power is love&respect the rest is selfish. This story is not shocking and we need to stop excusng " Hate " .............. Hate won't end Hate , only love can do that !

"Teenager , Nope KILLER, I hope they throw away the key , but as she knows they won't do that !!!! Prime example of why mental fucks think this is a "JOKE" hard life ooooooh well we all have some fucked up story, we all had it hard and we all have choices, 80% of the world needs a SHRINK whether they know it or not ! a A&B student knows what KILLING is now she is sitting back laughing and it is heartbreaking. As ppl we should learn to forgive yes, but as far as make excuses bout her mental state !!! Hell No . She killed she can sit in jail away from society and think , think , think til it distroys her!!!

The " VICTIM & her FAMILY " in my prayers !!!

Everyone who thinks what this 15 yr old monster did is due to having mental issues go aask Dave Pelzer if his brain is fucked up, ask him if he killed anyone !!! Victims real victims usually harm the person who harmed them anyways, not just kills " INNOCENT CHILDREN" . tHE constitution gives the murderer all these rights , but where was the constitution for "ELIZABETH" she is dead.

Mal, and Latina, Hugs to you both for what you've endured and overcome, and blessings upon you both for sharing your stories here.

Emily, I am sorry some of the adults chose to attack you and not just comment on what you have written. You are a bright 15 year old, not stupid in anyway that I can see. I do think you have misplaced compassion in this case. I think that Mal and Latina have tried to share with you that mentally abled people, although they can suffer terrible abuse at the hands of others, can and do turn out completely normal. This points to a flaw in your theory that AB should be given special consideration because of her upbringing.

If we do that, then what kind of "prize" or special consideration shall society impart on these two posters for behaving like moral, upstanding people in spite of their upbringing? If we are not to condemn people for their behavior because they had a difficult upbringing, then everyone ever put into jail that was reared in an abusive home should be set free.

I am sorry that AB's life is over at 15, but she chose her path. Just as you choose to wake every day and bathe and go to school and learn, come home and do your homework, and do it all over again the following day...she chose to plot, and execute a nine year old for pure enjoyment. She stepped out of the box of a comfortable 15 year olds life and chose to do a horrendous, yet adult type act, by taking another human's life.

I am sure her grandparents are good people who did the best they could. Not only in rearing their own daughter, but then rearing their daughter's children. I feel badly for AB's siblings and for her grandparents. What a stigma she has placed on her family by doing this. No, AB is broken, beyond being glued back together, she is shattered and there is no fixing that.

If you still feel strongly about your opinion, that is fine, but I would hope that you feel you are responsible for the decisions you make at 15. If not, then you should begin to make an effort to take that responsibility more seriously. You do have the ability to have mature and rational thoughts, and you have the discernment to know right and wrong. With those things comes responsibility whether you are ready for it or not.

I agree with Jadensmokes. Emily, those of us posting on here have been 15 at one point in time. While some of us may have forgotten the drama of teenage life, we still know that we were able to discern right from wrong. I did tons of stupid things at 15. I didn't do them because I didn't know they were wrong; I did them because I had no regard for the repercussions. I cannot personally believe that any 15 year old isn't aware that killing is wrong. I also, do understand your point about having a troubled childhood, but as others have said, we can overcome that. Some people choose to fight the battle, others choose to use it as a crutch or an excuse to continue the same horrible acts. Those of us that had messed up childhoods and have troubles as adults but seem to "beat all odds" are not necessarily beating the odds any more than we are making the right decisions.

Alyssa should be put to death.

Also, this website sucks asses without Steve Huff.

Kira Simonian, I hereby nominate you for Post of the Day.

To be brief and cover as many comments as I can:
- Obviously there are a few young people commenting here that don't really get things in life quite yet, but they'll hopefully get there.
- Everyone is waaay different at 30 than 15, but for most of us that doesn't include homicidal thoughts.
- To the first post - you don't know it, but you're obviously obsessed with politics and you should seek help.
- The sad truth is that someone capable of this should be locked up forever. Rehab, whatever, but stay behind bars. The rest of us work hard for normal lives and we don't need this shit.
- Thank you Mal, I think you've made the most sense here.
- And to "Jane" - funny, I just found my old coursework from college when I took, guess what, "English Common Law" at NYU. You don't really know what you're talking about.

Sorry Jane - I did a quick search to check who wrote that Common Law comment and went right to your post - missing that you quoted it. I should have referred to "Scott."

Hey Emily I'm 19, and I admit I've changed a bit since I was 15, but not a whole lot. I still make the same dumb mistakes now I did 4 years ago, so a person has to go through a LOT of life experience to change drastically in 1 year.

This girl should def. get time behind bars as well as much more mental help. I don't want to see her get the death penalty, but instead get prison time (well past age 21 at least). While she took an innocent life, we also have to think about whether or not we can rehabilitate her life.

Of course I offer my condolences to Elizabeth's family, friends, Alyssa's friends, family, and all of you who posted the negativity in your personal lives. It's a shame that some grown adults choose not to take care of themselves, or their children.

I think that murderers, rapist and child molesters after being convicted should be allowed ONE appeal in court. If the conviction is NOT overturned, march their sorry ass out of the courthouse, straight to the firing squad. Give the victim's family the opportunity to pull the trigger. Death by "lethal injection" is too humane. Then send their family a bill for the bullet. I am sickened by the waste of our tax money to house, feed and "rehabilitate" these maggots.

Oh my God,
Everything from Education, her parents were not in the home,she's a child, the bible. Lets look at some of the the crimes that were commited by predators Like Alyssa and were released after serving their time in prison or slipped through the legal system. Does this ring a bell, cut off a 14 year old girls arms at the elbows, raped her, beat her and left her in a ditch to die. The only thing that saved her life is that it was snowing and stopped her from bleeding to death. After his release from prison he murdered a young woman almost the same way he tried to kill the 14 year old. We have another famous case.`The young man wanted to keep other young men as his sex slaves, so he drilled holes in the heads and pored acid in their brains(It did not work)and than ate them. One of the young men got away, two women found the young boy and flagged down a police officer. The young killer, rapist, nut, what ever you want to call him, was let go with his victum. He later went on to kill several more young men. People like Alyssa,no matter what her age is are not going to change. She is a killer and will always be a killer.

Why? Because of how she did it, why she did it and her reason for the killing. A person at 15 years old knows right from wrong. She knows how to reason, she knows that her actions have consequences. She knew before she touched the fire she was going to get burnt.

thnx jadensmokes you said it best. :) and others realizing and stating.we need to stand strong. Take our nation back ,nd consider a child's life was lost.:(

Scott has some good points also:)

EVERYONE ESPECIALLY THE TEEN ON HERE READ MALS STORY

I think it's a commonly held opinion that psychopaths or sociopaths cannot be rehabilitated, and there is probably psychological studies that purport this. Having said that, psychology and counseling are NOT exact sciences. I don't think you or I (or even Alyssa herself) can know if she can ever be rehabilitated. And, look, she is NOT a serial killer. There is certainly compelling evidence that she might have become one, but we can't know for sure. And of course, in light of the crime, she will never have the chance to become one, which is a good thing. But don't pretend that you know the future.

I think what bothers me about so many people's attitudes here is that they somehow want to be able to convict people for crimes they haven't committed yet or somehow predict what can't ever be predicted (i.e. who will actually become a killer). Should a teenager who has killed animals "just for the fun of it" be locked up for his or her whole life, because popular culture has told us that animal killers someday all become vicious serial killers? Would this be justice? We somehow think that if we lock away everyone that is disturbed or demonstrates a lack of empathy, that we will all be safe. It doesn't work that way.

Sure, this child wrote scary stuff on her Facebook page about murder and suicide, but how many other teens her age have written the same and end up later becoming productive members of society? We might be surprised by the number of disturbing essays teachers read.

Obviously, I am NOT trying to defend her. She's a horrible person. She should be tried as an adult and spend the vast majority of her life or even her whole life in prison. I agree with this. What I don't agree with are all the armchair psychologists on here who think this girl would have become Jack the Ripper if she hadn't been caught.

I have had nightmares since this story broke. I cannot imagine a "normal human being" taking a life of an innocent "just to see what killing feels like". I have a son with schizophrenia and he is the most gentle hearted human being there could ever be. He is compliant with his medication and keeps his medical appointments. This girl AB is NOT mentally ill...she is SATAN alive in the world. If she claims the "insanity plea" it is an injustice to the truely menatlly ill people in the world. Mental illness is a painful ordeal but there are medications available to help. The excuse of insanity in AB's case would make me sick. She is vermin and as for her "parents" only God knows why they were given the privelege to BE parents. I suspect this girl maybe saw her father murder that woman who is still missing and so...she fed off of his evil deeds too. CREEPY

Im not a racist or anything but I think its mighty strange how many bad and racial comments I've seen about the other topics that involve black people but yet no one has anything to say about this situation its just as bad as the rest, so since there are black on black crimes what would you call this one besides a crying shame

The girl's simply a psychopath. Psychopaths r not really humans but just human-like monsters, only physiologically similar 2 humans. They r born that way, not made that way.

Liberal this, liberal that. Who wants to bet grandma was a typical Bible thumper?

She acts like most of the kids from the family values kneejerk conservative trailer parks I have seen. I swear, I think what passes for conservativism today is a mental illness.

This nutjob wasn't making a political statement, but most child molestors, serial killers, and scumbags on death row are all too glad to talk about Jesus, conservative values, and are usually involved in their church and republican politics.

Truth hurts, but pointing elsewhere doesn't wash it away, sunshine.

Psychopaths CANNOT be cured. They r born that way and die that way. That's y there r also psychopathic children. Just wait, when she's older she will write a book by which she'll become a millionaire.

Oh my goodness , this 15 years old teen is so crazy ! Killed the girl only 9 years old just only want to know how it felt like ? God that is so stupid ... I am so sad for Elizabeth's parent ! I know how their hurt with that big pain .

Independent Joe -- I know this family. Grandma wasn't a typical Bible Thumper. Why in the world are you blaming the grandparents? I know them, and know the history. They took all 4 of the kids because Alyssa's mom was a drug addict, extremely promiscuous, and completely neglected her kids. Who knows what abuse Alyssa suffered at the hands of her drug addicted biological mother and her druggie boyfriends. The grandparents stepped in to help theses children -- but they cannot be blamed for Alyssa's henious crime. Alyssa's biological mother should be on trial here -- for giving birth to kids and neglecting them and letting other people clean up her messes and "un-do" her abuse.
Just because kids come from a Christian home, does not mean that will lead them to become killers -- what a ridiculous statement.

This countrys legal system is so fucked up. The girl is under 18 and should be tried as a juvenile. Laws are not supposed to be changed person to person. Either do away with the juvenile system and try everyone as adults or try juveniles as juveniles. Whats a fuckin creep this judge is. Shame on him.

CREEEEEEEEp the judge is ? A 9 yr old CHILD is dead !! If that was yur child who was murdered " FRED" would you say charge her as a juvenile, no ya wouldn't a juvenile act is spray painting a wall . Its people that justify a act and lesson the "MAIN POINT" , AB is 15 but she carried out a adult not juvenile crime, assuming that she would get a lesser break based on her age. She is a AB student , and has the want to kill again . THE JUDGE IS 100% RIGHT AND MAYBE IF YOU WENT TO THE VICTIM OF THIS juvenile'S FUNERAL , YOU WOULD FEEL SOME SENSE OF WHAT TAKING A LIFE DOES TO A MOTHER. If the judge had the juvenile tried as one it would set an example, in which many cases have shown juvenile's cmmiting adult crimes, going thru the juvenile system and getting out like nothing ever happened . There is NOTHING that makes a juvenile killing a child any different than a adult killing a child. IF YOU " FRED" LOST YOUR DAUGHTER AT THE HARDS OF A SICK FUCK , WOULD THE AGE OF THE MURDERER LESSING THE FACT THAT YOUR BBY IS DEAD???? NO IT WOULDN'T. THE juvenile SYSTEM IS FOR juvenile THAT COMMIT CRIMES THAT ARE OF A juvenile NATURE LIKE STEALING, OF SPRAY PAINTING A WALL. AB chose to kill a bby and for that she is not in any means a child or juvenile. Obviously her mental state is that on a adult , she plotted and carried a limp body, dug 2 holes !! Do you see how ppl justify teens that is why they are out of control !!! oh johnny hit his mom but he is just a child. THE JUDGE IS ACTING IN THE INTEREST OF THE CRIME, IN THE INTEREST OF THE VICTIM , THE VICTIM HAD A CHOICE TO KILL , THE VICTIM DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE TO DIE.

a LITTLE GIRL IS DEAD, AND IF ANYTHING THE KILLER SHOULD NOT HAVE THE CHANCE TO KILL AGAIN !! tHERE IS ENOUGHH BAD SHIT IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT US AS SOCIETY , HAVING TO WORRY IF OOOOPS OUR NEIGHBOR MURDERED A LIL' GIRL . I COULD SEE IF WAS REGISTERED AFTER AS A CHILD MURDERER. BUT SINCE WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE TO KNOW , BUT REGISTERED SEX OFFENDERS ARE PUBLIC INFO. i'm sorry she can sit the rest of her life about the victim and the life she might have had if it wasn't for a juvenile as a adult . Everyone knows AB did research on juvenile crimes and fig. she would get away with maybe a couple yrs under her belt. A AB student has common sense even more than most adults , she knew what she did and a innocent child is dead " juvenile " she isn't . We can forgive AB for her crime cause that is what god would want us to do . But as far charging her as a juvenile for a adult act , it shouldn't happen and isn't happening !!! GLAD THE JUDGE IS NOT LIKE FRED OR OTHERS. PPL ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION BUT WHEN PPL FORGET ABOUT THE VICTIM IN INTEREST OF A MURDERER . THEY ARE THE ONES WHO THINK THAT PPL ARE NOT ENABLING MNSTER ACTS BASED ON BEING A juvenile.

I would not accuse the grandparents either , as a older adult it is hard to keep up with a generation that is out of control , especially knowing that older ppl have blindness, health issues of their own to keep up. I think that when AB was in the psych institution , maybe the grandparents should have opt'd to keep her there more perminately seeing as she had those feelings and the want to act. It is hard tho as a parent to commit your child, but most parents will act in best interest of the child . Usually older ppl from that generation feel more of a sense of guilt that they are suppose to be the ones protecting this child. Whether that means kind of in a sense ingoring her flaws in hopes that she will fix herself , luckily society is becoming more educated but a lot of ppl have a hard time changing with the times mostly because they werent raised that way. Things like having a gay family member was not accepted and ingored , or even just the thought that you can ungay someone was believed if you don't talk to that person was believed. Or even our parents parents thought it was a disgrace for a child to birth and raise a child , in fear of what society would say so the grandma would just raise the child , so neighbors wouldn't talk etc...

I think that if you shoplift the parent can be charged also and have to pay and same should go for MURDER!! She is a dependent , of her parents whether the grandparent stepped in or not it is still the parents child .

AB is dangerous she should be in jail most her life , but so should her sorry excuse for parents, the man who donated sperm to create her and the woman who birthed her. But it makes it hard than for good parents with fucked up kids that just act based not on bad parenting but as fucking up ppl. But like i said you shoplift , a parent is responsible but if a juvenile murdered its there own crime . if that is the case than she should be charged as a adult ! Because she is looked at as commiting a adult act against a child .Many ppl have mental issues everyone in the world needs help, which evolved from childhoood. The excuse i hear about oh she didn't have a mom or dad, lol neither did i , she atlease had grandparents who cared which was more than a lot of kids get . If a person is rapped does that mean that ppl should just go rape everyone they see, or if a person has HIV does that mean its okay to infect everyone and end their life based on what happened to you ? No . A dog bites a human , what happens to that dog ??? In jail she aleast will be alive that is the only privlige AB should have seeing as she took away a childs , and than laughed and said she wanted to know what it felt like.

I lolz love what GENE said " when she's older she will write a book by which she'll become a millionaire". yup so true and most ppl will buy the book putting money in her pocket , knowing she will never offer a cent of the profit to the family she destroyed !!!

GENE_----- 100% RIGHT

The girl's simply a psychopath. Psychopaths r not really humans but just human-like monsters, only physiologically similar 2 humans. They r born that way, not made that way.

Sandy said:
Oh my God,
Everything from Education!!!!

education is the key to success

lack of is the door to failure and ignorance

AB, a A&B student valueing knowledge enough to succeed in murder!!

AB- Born a monster , giving the tools to kill . If she wasn't ignorant she might have chose differently , but she still eventually would have killed just wouldn't have gotten caught

Sandy , look up INTERCULTURAL COMM. & tell me why it is not taught in elementary seeing as the school system is raising our kids. AB made her choice but society enabling teenagers to become ignorant has a lot to do with education system seeing as 7-8 hrs of a childs life M-F is not with there parents it is at school .

AB deserves to be in jail forever , ignorance and the lack of self developing prog. is no excuse . A child is dead , while we spend trillions on war . Why are teenagers commiting adult acts a lot have to do with the fact that we are too busy to develop their minds . Which as parents is no fault of ours we have to work to survive , but in turn we are loosing our kids for being absent, education should try and make up for that . That is why a lot of teens are turning into non- productive members of society. The gov, or tax dollars spent trillions on war , but when it comes to school it isn't as impt ... The education system is developing our future. Education is not just math , science and history , a class should teach them how to respect others, ( including ones life ) it teaches conflict , self esteem and the understanding of bias's which can make for a better america. People don't have morals now a days everything negative is considered normal and accepted. Why is that ?

education teaches us that there are choices , that their are good and bad ppl, since parents aren't educating their kids and someone has too. AB WAS BORN MESSED UP BUT THAT DOES NOT LESSON THE CRIME , SHE CAN'T BE FIXED AND PPL THAT THINK THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE STUDIED LESS MATH AND MORE COMMON SENSE , LEARNING ABOUT ONES SELF CAN CHANGE HOW YOU THINK AND FEEL . BUT BRAIN CHEMESTRY IS SOMETHING YOU ARE BORN WITH. YOU CAN'T BE FIXED ANY SMART PERSON KNOWS THAT.

i hate to say this but if she tried to kill herself before why didnt she just do it again instead. what is going on with kids these days

I bet many people have had it worse than the most disturbed psychopath and have turned out normal, that's not the whole point though, what it also comes down to is a person's overall genetic make-up. Probably considered to be too much of a grey area to be considered by most people but I bet it has implications. In a way this is like discussing whether almonds taste good or not, some people think so while others do not.

People can develope mental problems no matter what their upbringing or situation is. If you havn't that just means you've been mentally immune or havn't met the right formulations that caused them for you. No matter how you look at it people from dysfunctional families are drawn or more likely to get into trouble. I'm sure they don't use their problems as a crutch, if anything acting out from them, but if that is the case then realize that too is a problem and they can also change.

One girl I knew of, mom & dad on drugs and were alcoholics, ended up with the relatives and also got into a bit of trouble with the law, stealing, drugs, promiscuity and was also expelled from school.

Alyssa Bustamante put on a happy face, she was a good student, never missed class or got into trouble, was very social, funny and nice to everyone and a very good friend. Despite her mental illnesses and that is no joke she has them, she must have experienced some build up that led her to act out in the crime she commited.

Fact is we don't know what was going on through Alyssa's mind at the time she killed Elizabeth, we know that killing is wrong but her 15 year old mind didn't understand that killing a little girl was a big deal. Why should she be treated as if she did? That may not sound promising in her case, but ask yourself why the system is set up so teens are rehabilitated and why they aren't tried as adults are? It ain't a license for teens to go out and commit crimes.

That girl is crazy(Alyssa).
She's 16,
showing signs of mental weird thoughts.
She needs to be locked up,
tried as an adult.
She's close to 18,
2 years away.
SHE CANNOT BE LET OFF EASY,
NOR SHOULD SHE SOMEHOW BE BACK OUTSIDE OF JAIL.

I have an ex friend who is exactly like that.
Into weird stuff and mental thoughts, into goth, dresses and likes black, talked/talks about killing people, weird way of thinking, really strange, acts weird, and did i say her thinking was weird???
At home and at school, people look at her retarded and mental.
My heart goes out to Elizabeth and her family. God bless you guys and hope somehow you guys manage a way to deal with this; she didn't deserve this!

And for the killer alyssa,
.. when she attempted suicide or cutted herself,
why couldn't she just shot her stabbed herself a gajillion times?! and just die!?
she's scary (like my ex friend),
showed signs of being a huge threat,
and retarded!
WHY COULDN'T SOMEONE GET TO HER FIRST...
go to hell alyssa, where you belong and find peace,
and dress all black.

HOPEFULLY SHE'S GONNA BE TRIED AS AN ADULT,
LOCKED UP FOR A LONG TIME.
BETTER YET, FOR LIFE, OR JUST KILL HER OFF.
PLEASE.
SHE'S ALMOST 18.
Unless she's autistic..
but c'mon.. "wanted to know what it was like to kill somebody."
idiot..

Dear stupid Emily.......15 yr old know right from wrong!!!! Are you truly as dumb as your writings???? You are truly pathetic!

Dear Latina,
Is this what you were trying to explain to me? Why, I don't know? If you had read what I was saying than you would have realized that my view is much like yours.Or should I say YOUR VEIW IS MUCH LIKE MINE. I don't care how old she is, she planed out and murdered a breathing human. This is in no way have anything to do with this girl or the subject at hand. INTERCULTURAL COMM. The primary challenges of the twenty-first century is to manage the increasing contact among the cultures of our shrinking planet. Greater mobility, diversity, and complexity are the hallmarks of every workplace and community, demanding intercultural skills as never before. This is not something a elementary school is teaching our children. School at this age is getting along with one another, math, science, reading and so one.
All the signs were there, here behavior that Grandma and Grandpa did nothing about, her internet posting of herself. The schools did not fail her look at her grades, look at how carefully she planed and exucated it to kill. Not one person, but two. There was two graves.
If I have said it once I will say it again.
"WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO STAND UP AND BE HEARD, OUR VOICES MUST BECOME THOUSANDS. WE MUST TAKE BACK OUR SCHOOLS, NEIBORHOODS, OUR CHILDREN, STAND UP AND PROTECT ONE ANOTHER, SO THAT WE AS A PEOPLE, KNOW MATTER WHAT COLOR WE ARE CAN FEEL SAFE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.
What about the victums in all of these crimes, they can not cry from their graves, the children abused go on in silance, women affaired to walk the streets, men killing one another. For what? People that kill like this, will never change, so we wait for 40-50 years for her to turn 55-65 to go back to the streets.
THE POINT IS ELIZABETH WILL NEVER AGAIN WALK THE STREETS!

I am very saddened and sick to my stomach of all of these senseless killings. If we take a personal look inside of ourselves we know what can 'trigger' a more sinsister side. Those 'triggers' come in all kinds of fuelled packages and to degrees of small outbursts to falling over the thin line to the point of no return. The logic is to recognize what those triggers are (too many to mention - drugs/alcohol, etc.)and to what degree each trigger affects you and know when to STOP.
I am absolutely not a friend of 'mood drugs'. My heart goes out to both families and friends and all the hardships they are about to face.

She should get the death pen...See how that feels!!!!
Laura
Millerton, NY

as to the comment that dave placed on 11-18-09 using the bad childhood is an easy escape..my real dad beat me from the time i was 5 months old untill my mom left him just to marry the man that sexually and physically abused me for 4 years and for me to be raised by my gradnparents as well is disgusting...i have never once thought about what it would be like to kill someone. its a pathetic and easy answer so that we can sleep better at night not to think that true evil exist in our world...rather she goes to jail for life...gets sentenced to death..which in that case she will sit in a jail cell by herself...which she needs to be in the common population...being by herself is way to easy...or shes sent. to life in jail or mental inst. her real judgment day will come when shes faced with our god and that will be the day that she will truely be punished for her actions

thats not good for you eli.... hi-bye

I notice a strange dearth of commentors on this page saying things like "well, that proves it...white people are all confused, pubile thrill killers" or "why is it always the whites who do this stuff? They should all just go to jail automatically."

Yet every time a black person is pictured at the top of the page, for some crime he/she committed, the Jethros and Curly Sues come out of the woodwork trying to dazzle us all with their keen sociological insights. I suppose if all you do is watch FAUX news, that would be your idea of fair and balanced.

Its really sad that people like

Gaggy said:
I notice a strange dearth of commentors on this page saying things like "well, that proves it...white people are all confused, pubile thrill killers" or "why is it always the whites who do this stuff? They should all just go to jail automatically."

are trying to act like this crime has anything to do with race this girl killed a 9 yr old child. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE WHITE OR BLACK DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT !!! IGNORANT PPL ARE HALF THE REASON WHY THE WORLD IS SO MESSED UP. I FEEL SORRY FOR PPL WHO STEREO TYPE. THIS IS A FORM OF HATE AND HATE KILLS OUR NATION. BLACK, WHITE , LATINO THEY ALL COMMIT CRIMES . PULLING THE RACE CARD IS A BAD EXCUSE .

SANDY !!!

"WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO STAND UP AND BE HEARD, OUR VOICES MUST BECOME THOUSANDS. WE MUST TAKE BACK OUR SCHOOLS, NEIBORHOODS, OUR CHILDREN, STAND UP AND PROTECT ONE ANOTHER, SO THAT WE AS A PEOPLE, KNOW MATTER WHAT COLOR WE ARE CAN FEEL SAFE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

i 100% agree with this statement , sorry if i miss judge you i read all these postings and sometimes get mixed up what from who's statement i am commenting on beause we get caught up in writing. I don't think it is the EDUCATION SYSTEMS, responsiblity it is 100 the parents but since the schools are a lot of the time the only good thing kids have it would be a good place to teach them to improve of their selfs , teens these days are either raising themselves or the parents claim they have no control . NO IT IS NOT THE SCHOOLS JOB TO TEACH THESE KIDS. but every parent is not gonna teach their kids so this knowledge needs to be taught somewhere . Teens are disrespectful , our tax dollars are thrown away i think this situation like sandy you said is not just about this 15 yr old. Its about us as a nation.

The victim is dead ,and AB should be in jail for the rest of her life. all these rights for criminals are a "joke" the victim doesn't have any rights , she is dead !!!

Education is just a piece in the puzzle that can help us as parents . My son goes to school and kids tant him and call him fat and the principle says oooooooh well the OTHER CHILDS parents are just having power struggles, so he said my son has to fear going to school and that its okay for me to wonder if my son is okay while i am at work . When kids go to school and have to be worried of their safety or belittled that damages a child . So by not means do i thing education is the reason this child is so messed up but look at teens these days , she is a example of where the world is going " down hill" Sandy is right we as a nation need to take our kids back , but not everyone is going to and school is mandatory , so do i thing productive social skills , like respecting ppl and such impt yes it is . AB killed a child she needs to be in jail we can forgive her , but to treat her as a juvi and let her out at 21 . NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. She commited a adult act !! Sandy is right we need to work together , besides the sit. that happens at my son's school and everyone looks the other way. He is learning the best A&B student , but he cries at times cause he dreads a school that should be positive . The child that bully's him has a ignorant parent that teaches ignorance , which has made for a ignorant child.

THIS IS IN NO MEANS THE SCHOOLS FAULT BUT , SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE !!! OUR NATION IS DESTROYED !!

AB is evil and tho she should be forgiven, she has killed a child which was evil. Innocent children and hate crimes happen everyday. AB has no respect for life and is she the only teen like that , NO !!!! Could her acts have been prevented possibly but everyone felt it wasn't their responsiblity. It is not the grandparents fault , it isn't there job to raise her !! i hope AB is tried as a adult .

Wow Latina, you really have a lot to say. I think that everyone feels hatred or thinks that Alyssa should die, and on an on.... But, I think that we all need to remember that she too is a young adult. While everyone keeps saying, I hope she will be tried as an adult. She is going to because it was a planned act. Therefore, she will be tried as an adult. She will probably get life and will have a long time to think about what she did. While I am not a person who thinks that killing people should be over looked or Alyssa should get a slap on the hand, I just think that we need to remember Elizabeth and pray that her family can move forward and that they are healed from their pain. We also should pray for Alyssa that she forgive herself for what she's done and that she can regret those things that she has done. It sadens me that everyone is talking about this 16 year old girl.... do you remember what you were like at 16? I do, I was immature and thought that I could do anything that I wanted... well, guess what? I'm 41 and believe me, I not at all what I was at 16. What I'm saying, is, what's with all of this hatred.... lets remember Elizabeth, and those of us that have children, lets hug and kiss them tonight.... and every night, lets show them that we love them and are there for them.

Maria,

Get with the program!! You wrote that at 16, "I was immature and thought I could do anything I wanted.:" Really....do you think it was OK to committ premeditated murder? I don't understand your ridiculous comments!

Yes, at 16, I was immature also but I certainly wasn't digging two graves in the woods!

Bring back capital punishment !!

I got to be honost here..and I'm sure people are gonna slam me for it..but here goes anyhow..I dont "hate" Alyssa. I hate what she did,we dont know what was goinmg on in her mind then,or now.if she truely is "sick,deminted,crazy,whatever,we just dont know. And remember,,no matter what we do to a person,,I.E,beat them to death,or imprison them and let the people in there do it,,etc. etc. No matter what we or anybody does to that person,,it's NOTHING,,I repeat,,NOTHING to what God can do to'em after they die..now..I'll sit back and see what kinda slammin I get. God bless Elizabeth Olten

I have a pit in my stomach-a gnawing and empty feeling the grips the lining of my organs, twisting and squeezing them down.

Sadly enough, this terribly feeling has more to do reading these 157 comments than anything else:

These writings are a mirror of ignorance and hate, of prejudice and condemnation, of stupidity and intolerance. They are the incarnation of everything that makes a crime like this possible.

Shame on you.

MTO:

Just to make things clear... I am with the program. But, I am also a human being and I think that if it were someone in your family who murdered someone, I do not think that you would be there defending the death penalty... I think you would be a little upset and embarrassed for what this person did. What I am saying is that, no juvenile is going to get the death penalty because juveniles cannot be put to death.

In March 2005, the United States Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty for those who had committed their crimes at under 18 years of age was cruel and unusual punishment and hence barred by the Constitution.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/juvenile-offenders-who-were-death-row

Maybe this will answer to your comment ……

“ I don't understand your ridiculous comments!”

Kurt:

Thank you!

this girl is undoubtedly not right and she deseves to be treated as a murderer..... but that is for a judge and jury to deside all of you sitting here for hours on end arguing about it and telling each other how stupid the other person is completely disqusts me.... u are pathetic....

and to you 2 that thank that she is "hot" should keep there out of context comments off the net..... and Franklin your a total and complete moron..... you need to keep your ideas and comments to your self.....
(my exseption to the fact that i think cutting people down is pathetic)...... your a pathetic sick minded soul....

underarock,,i take it you dont like what ya see...does that excuse you to do the same thing? because from what i see,thats exactly what ya just did.maybe because everybody else is either pithetic,stupid or a moran,that makes it ok.

Wow, it's always interesting the comments these types of stories dredge up. There are so many issues when it comes to trying kids as adults, capital punishment, cold blooded murder. Killing someone for her confessed motive does seem particularly calculated. The main thing I see wrong with the insanity defense is, why does their being insane necessarily mean they shouldn't get a maximum sentence to be removed from society as long as possible. It's not like getting that person on meds is going to make them any safer. To me, it's a lesser of two evils to lock them in prison for life - the greater good for the greater amount of people should prevail.

I have always felt like in order to take another being's life, anyone has to be a little insane - to not have that gag reflex that stops you. Perhaps the only exceptions would be where it was in the heat of the moment/self-defense, and death was instantaneous. That's sort of the problem with guns, for example, that it's so easy to pull the trigger and instantly regret it. So to chalk it up as insanity and then coddle that person for 25 years until they are supposedly rehabilitated, or whatever, I just don't think it's really helping society much anyway. I'm not pro-censorship, but as I get older, I do see where artistic irresponsibility in creating this whole culture around death and all the darker aspects of human nature is helping to damage impressionable kids who are already on the edge. People with horrible parents usually seem to be the ones most drawn to it, and some keep acting out and raising the bar until they are locked up. What is the difference between those who are able to keep it in check as all fantasy/morbid curiosity? Where is that line for teenagers, or even adults who never grow out of their fascination for the macabre?

When you find a kid who is willing to risk everything to experience the power of murder, for example, I mean, they must intuitively also know they are likely to face the consequences. Perhaps they are so chemically imbalanced and driven it doesn't enter their mind or it is completely overwhelmed by the desire to kill. They can't be so stupid they don't see forensics is pretty effective, though, if they are able to function at all in the world. So when they do these things, especially at such a young age, it's almost like they are advertising they are a danger to everyone and expediting their being removed from society.

Slight amendments to what I just posted, I meant to qualify the statement about meds a little more. I believe there are not good, consistent results for medicating people who commit these types of crimes in terms of rehabilitation. Also, I meant human being, obviously. A hunter obviously doesn't fall in the same category, on the other hand, someone who kills a cat for sport probably does. I was thinking the other day about how when you're an adolescent boy, at least, it's not uncommon for another kid to encourage violence towards animals, starting on a very primitive level. For example, an insect, tearing off its wings, or when you're fishing, they might laugh as they cut it and do additional, totally unnecessary things to the fish. One day, I distinctly recall at least 4 guys laughing about how they had blown up frogs with firecrackers and encouraging me to join them as they went and tortured more. It is really gross how far they were willing to go in order to execute this. I'm not going to say I hadn't used a magnifying glass to fry ants along with some of those same kids, or be holier-than-thou that I was perfect, but I definitely remember being proud of myself for walking away and not joining that mob mentality. There was definitely a turning point for me then where I realized that I was surrounded by violence, no matter how subtle it was.

15 year olds know right from wrong, but the brain of a teenager is not as mature as an adults.
What I was saying is that, I don't think alyssa realized the seriousness of it.
It is true that most 15 yr olds don't think about or commit murder, they know it's wrong don't want to deal with the consequences and plus it's quite hm sick? I don't think they would consider/think about killing someone they don't care for as being as big of deal as it is.
If you murder someone think of what you loose, years of your life, peoples' trust, etc. who'd in their right mind would want to give up that? What I think is that Alyssa didn't care about the consequences because of her suicidal depression she just didn't have any regard or think about them.
The info that has come out about alyssa doesn't really make her out to look sane, anyone considering hanging themselves at the age of 11 has SERIOUSLY got to have some issues.
Who knows how stable the environment alyssa spent the first portion of her life was? If the grandparents felt they needed to take custody.
You peeps can make up your little sob stories to make a point, but realize that people take things differently.

she killed a 9 year-old girl to 'know what it felt like to murder someone' God will handle her. mentle health won't help, she KILLED a little innocent girl, and she's still a young girl herself! she's infected with evil... too much screamo/death metal and telivision. rot in hell ALYSSA! REST IN PEACE 'Elizabeth Olten

Ok, so many are talking about mental disorders and criminals in jail. Yes, I totally agree that most in jail have some sort of disfunction or mental issues, but no one is asking the big question as to why?

Why are so many in jail have mental issues? People have been in jail since the dawn of time. So 300 years ago 95% of those people too had mental issues?? I cant agree with that.

I think this crime is horrible, but I laugh at how futile people don't understand our culture and the out of control behavior exhibited by killers and violent offenders. Yes, you can lock them up, kill them, or whatever, but does that stop crime from happening in the first place??? What? Stricter laws? You think that will help? Our laws have become more strict in several areas, but still pedo's and rapist STILL prey on the masses.

Everyone wants a quick fix, but there is none and that is what drives people crazy. They can't fix this, but blame Video Games, parenting, religion, drugs, drinking, the sun, god and everybody. Blame all you want, but how do are you gonna prevent crime?? No one has a clear solution. So I laugh, cause you cannot control what is in people's hearts and minds. You can't for the most part predict that your neighbor isnt gonna snap one day and shoot up his job. He may seems calm and cool.
I was a troubled teen, but I didnt kill anyone. But who says that another teen might not? Sorry cant tell, cant predict the future. Get over it.

Emily: I see your point and I think you are right. I do not think that these young kids who kill can see what happens once the crime has been committed. If you think about it, most kids that age can’t even see past tomorrow or right now…… and then you have the anger issues. Its all of those hormonal imbalances… (and I am not saying that all teenagers are capable of an act like this) I am not sure what Alyssa was thinking or why she did what she did. Maybe she thought she would not get caught. I’m glad she did because maybe she can now serve as an example to other kids who think that it’s cool to take someone’s life. A long time ago, and we still have those today, when kids did drive-bys. I worked for a law firm when I was younger and a 17 year old got capital murder for killing three people at one of those weekend drive-bys. He is still locked away and cannot go up to the parole board until he reaches 50. So, his entire life wasted away in a jail cell dealing with other criminals… what kind of a life is that? This girl will have the same fate. She’ll end up living in a cell and have to live with the guilt of what she did and how her decisions changed her life. I feel sorry for her because she’ll have to live that type of life, but again, that was her choice. She wanted to take a little girl’s life for no reason. A couple of years back, two guys in Texas, killed a girl for the reason of morbid curiosity… they shot her and put her in a shallow grave. They are still locked away… so, I wonder if the morbid curiosity of killing someone was worth it… if you want to experience death, kill yourself….this way, only your family has to suffer and not all of the people being affected by such a senseless act.

If she is given the ''death penalty'', She'll be killed like she wants. She's suicidal. She probably commited the crime because she knew she'd be away from society. She knew she'd get in trouble. Maybe she wanted the attention. Maybe she needed the attention. Maybe the fact that you people are talking SHIT, makes her feel better. Get over yourselves. She's smart and beautiful. (:

The problem is, if she wasn't tried as an adult, she would only do maybe 6 years tops for a heinous murder after the trial is all resolved! As much as I think our justice system is too flawed, unfortunately, for me to truly advocate the death penalty at this point in society, part of me believes that it could be a deterrent for future criminals on a couple levels, to address the questions of "what are we doing to reduce the crime/remove the sickness instead of the symptoms (paraphrasing your plaintive comments above)" One, that person doesn't live to commit more crimes, because anyone can see prison is not as effective as we would like it to be in terms of rehabilitation. Two, it does cleanse the gene pool, as controversial as I recognize such a suggestion is. I would have thought being raised with her siblings in a loving home by her grandparents would be enough to make up for the lousy parents she had, but obviously THAT didn't fix the problem. One things she wouldn't be doing if she got the death penalty - reproducing and perpetuating the cycle of mental illness and abuse she no doubt comes from. And there would always be fluke cases, individuals with chemical imbalances, evil black sheep of some otherwise, good, loving family. However, over the long term, I personally feel it would have an impact in reducing crime, if justice was swift and rather than these criminals being sensationalized, they just quietly disappeared after a trial was exhausted. Doesn't mean we have to betray our stance against cruel and unusual punishment. Overdosing on a nervous system depressant doesn't seem that tortuous to me. I'm sure we could evolve towards the most humane way to snuff someone's evil life out.

So, if you don't agree, then suggest what is the answer, besides saying she was just being a dumb kid and give her a another chance at improving upon her mistakes when she reaches 21? Don't just empathize with how young and immature she is, or how bad prison is going to suck for her, offer a better option. Some more severe compensation than a few years in prison for that poor 9 year old and her family is necessarily, though. When you balance the suffering of someone being stabbed/bled out/strangled with serving a 25 year sentence or something, can the two even be compared? It's all an abstraction, at some point, figuring out what a fitting punishment is for murder. Meanwhile, I know I've never romanticized about how it would feel to kill someone, and it disturbs me to share the world with people who do.

And so - it is said. Man becomes God, and judgement is passed. You have all thrown your stones. They have landed, and the wretched child will suffer horribly.

Good luck...............

msdanni..1st off,she cant get trhe death penalty because of her age..2nd..if they DID go out on a limb and give it to her,,she's sit there like all the other mugs on death row,for years on end,,letting us feed and house them,and eat probably better than millions of kids in this country, at our expence.

"A moral compass can only point you in the right direction. It can't make you go there. Our culture preaches that you shouldn't have to be ashamed of anything you do anymore. And, unfortunately, our society is built upon the premise that there is no such thing as guilt. Do whatever you want. We won't tell anyone. Without a conscience, there is nothing to keep you from killing. And, evidently, you don't even have to feel bad about it."

Taken from the final words of a CSI program about teens meeting together to "fanny-smack" tourists in LV for fun. One was killed and several maimed for life.

This girl knew right from wrong. She chose to NOT follow it, regardless of the consequences she could divine. Surelyy she knew she was taking a life, even if she hadn't been caught. That's not the reason to NOT kill.........getting caught. MG! What has happened to this generation?

And, from the apologists for her actions that I've read, I can see the CSI comment above is alive and well....unfortunately from the same generation as the above mentioned characters in the CSI program.

The death penalty, for an by all accounts troubled, 15 year old kid? I am at a loss for words.

Folks, as many countries have realized, the death penalty is wrong and it doesn't work. Do states that have the death penalty experience lower crime? No. That is, there is no reduction of crime because of the death penalty.

When you ignorant and poorly educated US citizens decide to depart from the dark ages, Welcome to the 21st century, maybe you'll catch up with some of the rest of us.

Ignorant poorly educated US citizen here. Errrrr, have a master's degree in human behavior, no less. Death penalty is wrong? Care to provide a link for that? And, what are the "many countries?"

The death penalty will not be given this kid. But, she does need to be taken off the streets by whatever method possible. Death penalty is to rid society of these murderers. How high would the numbers be if there wasn't a death penalty? How do you know they aren't lower? What is your degree, BTW? How far does I need to catch up to be level with your? Just curious.

For those debating the topic of the insanity defense, please google it or whatever to read what the insanity defense is REALLY about. just because you are a little "sad" or even a crazy cutter, doesn't make you insane. It just makes you psychologically impaired nor is it a defense against the law.

In order for the insanity plea to be brought into play, you would need to prove she did not know right from wrong ****IN THE EYES OF THE LAW**** (she knew it was wrong to kill because she hid the body) and she didn't mean to do it (you can't prove this either since she stated already "I just wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone".

Now, how many of your "poor misunderstood murder girl with a bit of a psycho problem" would be willing to take her into your home with YOUR children?

Pleae raise your hand if you want this poor little alyssa to come play at your house.

Eve, I'm a U.S citizen. You can start by using the correct grammar in your last sentence Mrs. PHD. If you would like some proof, a simple and easy way is Pen and Teller's Bullshit episode on how the Death Penalty is bullshit. I doubt you will though. Most people who know they are wrong, rarely face the truth of their errors.

Eve: Your Link Doubt you'll be back to read it though.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

But please even provide your own links as to where the US culture has said "You shouldn't have to be ashamed of anything you do anymore."

Also do those who keep bringing up the death penalty, she's too young, it won't happen. Even if it did, she would be 45 before we did it anything. That's what the death penalty is good for, wasting tax dollars.

To: Sadierose Hendrix: Nothing much, except you are truly gifted at being totally stupid. Music has no effect on people. This has been debunked into the damn ground.

Anyway it always been easy to judge others. With the advent of the internet the cowards can come out in full force. Most of the posters here are.

@Brandon, Regarding the grammar, yes it became garbled when I corrected/edited the last sentence. This site doesn't provide an "edit" button. I'm sure you will be able to over look that "error" on my part when you see yours as listed below?

Regarding the links about "please even provide your own links as to where the US culture has said 'You shouldn't have to be ashamed of anything you do anymore'"........errr, this was a line from CSI. Please try to read more closely. BTW, a Master's is not a PhD....stand corrected.

Regarding: "Most people who know they are wrong, rarely face the truth of their errors." Glittering generality here and a much simplified overstatement. BTW, where is your link for that statement "most people rarely face the truth......Your proof is a Ben & Teller spoof? LOL.

And, lastly regarding your last statement: "Anyway it always been easy to judge others. With the advent of the internet the cowards can come out in full force. Most of the posters here are." Errrrr, aren't you being critical as well here. A little projection perhaps?

All in all, I must say that your entire rant doesn't make
much sense.

OK, followed your link http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html , and although the first sentence says that 137 countries have outlawed the penalty, by my count the countries listed on the site that allow the death penalty (120 approx) outnumber the ones that outlawed it (less than 100). Count them yourself. Wonder why the misrepresentation in the statement?

So I guess you need to take back this statement, unless you are willing to admit it yourself: "Most people who know they are wrong, rarely face the truth of their errors."

Sadierose Hendrix - I've never read such an absurd bunch of balony.

As for Alyssa, I feel sorry for her, she should do some time but I think life in prison is way too much.

God is she hot, murderess or not.

Brandon,

I think you misread what Eve posted. It was in response to EMZ's post and really, you and Eve agree it seems.

Tim:

Do you feel bad for every criminal who has a "I was beaten and neglected as a child" sob story and commits murder?

How many jail time years would be enough if she stabbed, choked and/or slit the throat of your 9 year old daughter, or sister? What about your mom? You wife?

Would you still say "poor little girl! She's suffered so much! Let her out in 20!"?

Didn't think so.

I agree that teens should not be tried as adults especially in these certain cases. Alyssa is only 15, she struggles with extreme depression, and she has had a troubled upbringing, both of her parents have been absent in her life and have had troubles of their own, which can be hard to deal with.
Such things alike like abuse, neglect, seperation, etc. can cause depression and other mental issues in certain children, given his/her paticular irritability/predisposition. Alyssa is not a sociopath, she has a history of depression not sociopatheic behaviour.
Alyssa has recieved treatment and has supportive grandparents that were rewarded custody of her in 2002, but there's much that was overlooked and only so much they could do. Believe it or not, a person's early life is a crucial time in developing a person's mind, a person's childhood have a lot to do with it in some cases.
Alyssa is also on anti-depressant meds who's to say these couldn't interfere with her moods and cause her to become homicidal? The number of people on these similar meds who have murdered are questionable. These meds seriously need more investigation and study.

As for Forsaken, taking a person's life is a truly horrendus crim, but I don't believe in the eye for eye crap and think it is injustice i believe in certain rights for all humans even if they've violated the rights of others. If someone killed someone i loved i would find it in my self to forgive them, in hopes that would help them become a better person. I believe society is made up of individuals, not subjects of it.

As for the death penalty, new zealand for example doesn't have it and it is one of the most peacful places in the world, i'm not saying it's because it doesn't have the death penalty but the crime isnt rampant because of it as some people seem to think.

Alyssa still struggles with depression she is obviously not mentally well and I hope she gets the help she needs. I highly doubt, 100% sure she would kill again.
The MO juvenile system has a high success rate, not the 80% failure as some people seem to think.

I do hope Alyssa is provided with care and a chance to rehabilitate her self and I know she can. I find it disturbing that she is being charged as an adult.

This whole tragedy is very upsetting and especially for the Olten's I'm sure.

Dear Gaggy said,
Your commits about race is very sad. The RACE CARD DOES NOT APPLY HERE. The issue here is the murder of a nine year old little girl and if the murderer should be tried as an adult. This 15 year old is MENTALLY ILL. some teens write strang things on the internet or English papers to their teachers. However like Latine said "they do not dig two graves or murder another human." My own feelings are YES, the Grand-Parents do have some responsability for this girl and her behavior. The signs were all there.It is to late for her, she should be tried as an adult,the crime commit was an adult crime. I have a 15 year old and I check on the people he is with, his school, his my-space, his cell phone. What I do everyday is tell him I love him and if he needs me for anything I am here. When people parent a child, bio or not the child comes first. If you can not do the job, give the child up, there are plenty of people that would love to have those children.
STOP CHILD ABUSE OF ALL KINDS,LOVE YOUR CHILDREN BEFORE IT'S TO LATE

Wow. This kind of thing blows me away. This monster, deserves the death penalty. It, yes it, killed with premeditation, planned to kill again, and the crime was heinous, do we really need much more as far as the laws of the state are concerned? It will be tried as an adult and hopefully given the death penatly.

attempting suicide and cutting one's self at such a young age is not normal... neither is killing to see what it feels like the product of a sane and healthy mind.
sorry people but there's more going on with the girl other than merely wanting to know what it felt like to kill someone.
some time in a mental hospital and the juvenile system is much more appropriate in the case of an ill young girl, i do not think prison is at all.
no matter what she did, she is still a 15 year old. you people who want the death penalty are monsters.

The sad thing is, I don't feel one ounce of sympathy for the girl. Whoop-di-do her parents arent around. Kids deal with that all the time without deciding they want to kill someone. Whoop-di-do, she might have been an outcast. Oh well?! Kids go through that every day, in every city, at every school. She's luckier than a lot of kids, some kids don't have other family members who will take them in and instead have to go to foster care. And I was friends with pleanty of gothic kids in high school and guess what? None of them took the death facination as far as killing an innocent person.
Yeah, she obviously has issues i.e. the suicide attempt and being perscribed prozac, but still there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for killing an innocent child.

And for all the people out there who want to feel sorry for her because she was a troubled teen-

I was a troubled teen. I had severe depression, and later after high school was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I went, and still go, without medication by choice. At 12, which is only one year earlier than when she did, I tried committing suicide. Unsuccessfully thank god. But the thing is, severe depression may put crazy thoughts in your head about ending your own life. But a lot more is wrong with her than depression to go and kill a little girl. Are you guys really saying, because shes a troubled teen, basic morals go out the window?! Thats obsured.

Woww; This Chick is Crazy. And to Think we have the same last name! Dangg; but I'm definitely N0T RELATED to her.

Never for once in my life I had ever seen such a heinous act...committed by a teenage girl. AB must be a very disturbed and deranged young woman to take away a young girl's life to see what it feels like. Obviously she had to be tried as an adult or otherwise it wouldn't do justice to Elizabeth's family. I also never got the impression she was insane. She knew what she was doing. She committed a barbaric act and I guess now she has to make amends for it - if it could ever be amended.

I don't feel an ounce of symapthy towards AB; but what I'm I'm saddened is that someone's life has to be over at 15. I'm sorry if her life has been destroyed but she DID have a choice, she made it and now she has face its consequences. D

on't think she's ever going to be out of prison -- well at least not for a very, very long time. Truth is, life gets better outside high school. I wasn't happy in my final high school years (junior+senior) and was a very different person to what I am now. I just feel for someone who will never get the same chance I got.

My condolences are with Liz's family.

I don't care if this pathetic excuse for a human being was/is insane or not. IT DOESN'T MATTER -- SHE'S A DEADLY THREAT EITHER WAY (and let's not forget she was sane enough to try to hide the murder). This POS worthless little rabid monster should be exterminated, ASAP.

It continues to amaze me that in these times of extreme over-population, we choose NOW to be the softest we've ever been on low-life dangers to society like this piece of $#!%.

As for one of the comments far above, about how 'she can change,' ARE YOU #@$#@$#@ KIDDING ME?

Elizabeth can't change. Elizabeth can't do ANYTHING ANYMORE -- SHE'S DEAD!

PLEASE let's show other aspiring little psychopaths out there what happens when you display as much restraint as a dimwitted, yet rabid, beast -- exterminate her (after a legal conviction, of course).

This 'aww she's just a kid' BS or 'she's mentally ill' crap is RIDICULOUS. Why don't you just give her a @#$#@$# award, then? Maybe she just needs a trip to Disneyland, everything will be better, then. @#$@#$ @#$#@ @#$ #@$!

Perhaps those of you who are saying such pathetic and utter nonsense would like to give the sweet, helpless, mentally ill girl a hug? Just be sure there are witnesses around, lest she strangle you and cut your throat for laughs!

The harmful effects of a troubled childhood vary depending on a number of factors, including the child's circumstances and personal characteristics.

If a child is abused, neglected, has drugged out, alcoholic and violent, parents i wouldn't expect them to turn out to be upstanding individuals and that's not their fault. The corrosive circumstances can cause behavioural problems, personality disorders, and chronic depression. others may not be as affected but again, it depends on the person and the circumstances.

AB has circumstances in common with alot people who've never murdered, true. However, some people kill themselves over things that others wouldn't be botherd by. I'm not trying to make a point or excuse anything here, but a set of conditions, a mix of circumstances...

I know that AB was on the antidepressant Prozac which states it increases the risk of suicide in people under the age of 25. These drugs have also been linked to manic behaviour, could they possibly be responsible for what pushes people over the edge who have murdered while on them? I don't think homicidal ideation, thoughts and urges to kill, as a possible side effect should be overlooked.

These are mood altering emotion suppressing drugs here.

M2,
So what a lot of people are on antidepressants, come from bad childhoods, younger then 15 years old. But young people do not plan to murder and dig graves(two). She was going to kill more than one person. She commited an adult crime. She knew what she was doing before she murdered Elizabeth.
("The corrosive circumstances can cause behavioural problems, personality disorders, and chronic depression. others may not be as affected but again, it depends on the person and the circumstances.")
What bull shit you are trying so hard to sound as if you know what you are talking about. Tell Elizabeth and her family that Alyssa circumstances made her kill their daughter!
Your an IDIOT

Anybody else think Alyssa is incredibly cute?

Sandy, don't be ignorant.

Did you know that abuse, neglect, poor parental role models and parenting is some things alot of criminals have in common? This can have behavioural and psychological impacts, given the development the human mind undergoes during childhood.

Take borderline personality disorder for example; Many individuals with BPD report have had a history of abuse and neglect as young children. There has also been a high incidence of loss of caregivers in early childhood.Parents (of both sexes) were typically reported to have withdrawn from the child emotionally, and to have treated the child inconsistently.

The whole point about the antidepressant bit was missed. Many people under 25 on prozac don't commit suicide either, need I say more? I wouldn't entirly rule out homicidal ideation as a possible side-effect.

Truth is, kids do dumb stuff all the time, her little incident just happened to be a big no no. I can't imagien why such an adorable and intelligent girl wouldn't want to get help for herself, I'm sure she could have a bright future ahead of her. Tring a kid who's mind hasn't even matured as an adult and putting someone away for life when they should be handed a chance to rehabilitate should not be tolerated. I think it is unfair to use her as an example when she is obviously a depressed and troubled kid and who knows maybe should not have been on those meds. While Alyssa may have had a troubled past with those lousy parents, and coping with her prental issues, sounds like her grandma did what they thought was best for her even if it might not have helped. I just hope people don't give up on her and realize she is a kid, can still have compassion for her even though she has commited the most degrading of crimes.

I'm angered that this case is high profile she is a minor and her identity should have never been released.

To bad they aren't seeking the death penalty for this brat.

The fact is, at 15 you technically don't have a REAL personality, that is one that is fully formed and entirely your own.

You're basically an empty vessel filled with an amalgam of various other personalities around you, things you have absorbed etc.

At that age you're not physically or psychologically mature, and your brain literally does not function correctly.

This is why teens are so vulnerable to peer pressure, and make so many decisions which should be obviously bad.

The people saying "at 15 you know right from wrong" are simply ignorant of reality and/or not recognizing the complexity of the situation.

It's true that most kids that age will have an idea of what is right and wrong- but only if that has properly been instilled in them, and even then their minds are not fully formed and strong enough and they can easily become lost at sea and lose track of these things.

People are also putting too much stock into what she said about her reasons for doing it.

Once again, this is a disturbed 15 year old, and you are just taking her word for it? How remarkably naive and ignorant.

You're not thinking logically....

The statement that she did it to see what it felt like may contain some truth, but it's most likely a bold front...something she said to shock and cover how scared she actually is.

I'm not saying the murder is by any means justified...but we can't discount the possibility that something other than what is described happened...perhaps they got in a physical fight...who knows.

Frankly I am appalled that so many of you presume to have God-like knowledge of what actually happened and insight into this girls heart and mind.

We don't know for sure why she did it, or even how she did it....how dare you make such confident proclamations as if you actually know of what you speak when in fact you are talking out of your rear end.

Whatever the truth, this girl is so young there is a very strong possibility she could be rehabilitated.

Look at the case of Mary Bell which is similar in some aspects to this one. She was a bit younger when she killed...but she was rehabilitated and now lives a quiet productive and law-abiding life.

One child has already been lost, don't lets throw another one away needlessly.

I just want to make clear I'm not saying that this girl is innocent or only deserves a slap on the wrist or anything like that....

...but let's leave the judgment to the trial, where all the facts will come out and an appropriate response taken.

g-whiz,
Who's ignorant? Lets REHABILATE her and move her right next door to you and your family. If your younger sister or daughter comes up missing like Elizabeth did, you will know where to look. Oh yes, that's okay because you said that antidepressants cause problems when taken them. And we can't forget what you said that KIDS DO DUMB THINGS. THEY DON'T REALY MEAN TOO.
EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THE SHIT YOU WROTE HERE,WHAT GRADE LEVEL DO YOU HAVE? ARE YOU TAKING MEDICATION? Who cares how mad you are if her name is in the media, look at the crime, the adult crime. Elisabeth's name was in the media!
Now go choke on you own stupid shit.
Truth is, kids do dumb stuff all the time, her little incident just happened to be a big no no. I can't imagien why such an adorable and intelligent girl wouldn't want to get help for herself, I'm sure she could have a bright future ahead of her.
You can't even make a complete sentence. Her incident just happened to be a big no no.
Your kidding right?

Sounds like a classic case of Borderline Personality Disorder--sad, but true.

If you know your child is having issues, you need to seek help, especially when their so-called hobbies are "killing people."

We need to stop with the lazy parenting and get in our children's business. That way, you're not shocked and surprised when they turn up doing crimes like this - that if you were doing your job as a parent, could have been avoiding with proper help and treatment.

This girls parents are terrible.. I'm not suprised she turned out like this, combine the wrong ingredients and you get a screwed up person. There's no tellin what she's been exposed to.

I know of people who work with kids like (and worse than) Alyssa, and they all have similar (milder and worse) circumstances in common with her. And guess what, they can be and are rehabilitated and go on to live their lives without offending.

Really? She dabbled in goth? And goths are into dark stuff? And there was once this other dude who was into dark stuff too, and he killed four people? Well if only we'd discovered this right off the bat, we could have saved all the expense and mess of an investigation and just executed her on the spot!

Seriously folks, has anyone else noticed ridiculous quality of the innuendo and rumor being generated by the blogosphere these days?

Look society these days have come to this because of the strict law and order. All teenagers will rebel in there own way and yes what she did was horrible but she does not deserve the death penalty. She is a young girl who still deserves to live and all of you saying that she should die are just as guilty as her.

Pete, any update on this? When is her trial?

Pete Kotz said:

I'm not sure they have a trial date yet, Gina. It's still in the preliminary hearings and the last I heard she was undergoing a psych exam. I doubt there will be anything significant until the new year, unless she for some reason decides to plea early, but that would be very unusual, especially for a minor. But I'll update as soon as I hear anything.

A 15 y.o. old engages in sexual intercourse and so readily the leftists will cry about the poor innocent child being corrupted, yet cases where an overlooked young girl with deep-seeded issues who is obviously sick and disturbed is adult enough to be tried as such? To Anon. below, I find it fascinating that your sentiments echo that of Nancy Grace, who by all accounts is the sheer epitome of a liberal (being that as most Prosecutors will readily hold trial and convict in the media before even the initial proceedings begin).

I also find it strangely amusing that this modern sound-bite media society that gains its overwhelming depth of wisdom from 20-second sound-bite news clips is so oblivious of the fact that it has been well documented for over a decade that Prozac is a known catalyst for suicide and homicide in patients being treated for depression.

Yes America, send your hard-earned dollars to starving children destined to grow-up and hate you, blindly continue to support the liberals stealing liberty in order to create the United Socialist States of America as the Sons of the Founding Fathers are victims of a silent genocide, turn our brave young soldiers into criminals for giving a savage murderer a bloody lip, let the politically correct do away with those hateful words such as terrorist, and most of all America continue to discard our children because quite frankly who wants to take the time and effort to help a sick kid.

This is a tragedy in all ways and My condolences to the Victims family, but let the dead bury the dead. Alyssa is in My Prayers.

I think its ridiculous this child is being tried as an adult. Dishing these kids adult sentencing and placing them in adult prisons right from the get-go is disturbing, and nor progressive, healthy or effective means of preventing crime.
The United States currently imprisons 2,270 people who were tried as adults and sentenced to life without parole as minors, according to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International; in all other nations on Earth, there are a combined total of only 12 such prisoners!

Plug,,thats a good comment,,well put,and i agree with about all of it,,except..from MY pinnt of view,,i'm local to this case,,and the news and papers are covering it quite well..not everybody is coming up with "death to the girl" cries,or calling for her head..maybe some people should read more of the story insted of just the part about "she killed a kid" ya think?

Mark, Most Definitely...

The problem is that of a society (an overwhelming majority) that has completely and utterly became mindless drones enmasse, living in a world controlled by instant gratification and no patience (e.g. fast food, high-speed internet, etc.). Thus the decline in print media that not only requires the individual to take more than a fleeting glimpse, but also demands of the reader to consider the input they receive. Honestly, can you fathom a society that actually takes time to formulate an individual thought? Imagine how scary a proposition that is for leftist elitists who have such a control fetish they have convinced the majority that America would be better if we all just stop questioning and follow exactly what they tell us is right and wrong.

yes none of you may want to listen to a fifteen year old but i have a statement and believe me its not in favor one pit of this cold hearted killer. i feel she deserves being tried. frist off jack skeleton is deffinatly popular among goth wear. im tired of hearing people say a DISNEY MOVIE is bad just because SOme fifteen year old girl decided to go and killl a younger girl.
wow this really pisses me off. not only did she ruin an image for a bunch of people who dress like her she also brought shame to people who are cutters likemyself not all cutters are insane. she had issues with her fmaily. ive been doing research about her online. its a shame she had to go and do this. i was obvious something was wrong with her why didnt her mother just hkeep her in the insane asslyum. she couldve gotten help and possibliy gotten help. maybe none of this could ouccur if any of you know some one who is struggling or maybe you are go to www.twloha.com. not all goth emo scene klids are the ones cutting themeselves. people just sterotype that because its common for some to do that. but i know cheerleaders football palyers i know alot of people who have a different style who dont dress like that who are cutters. cutting is getting worse with my generation. depression is also. i also suffer from that. but ive never had an urge to kill some one like that out of the blue. thats all i ahve to say

Anybody else have trouble following Ashley-the-15-year old's post? She says we may not want to listen to her yet I might be interested if I could read her comment!

Ashley is unfortunately the classic 21st century teenager who honestly believes that somehow her generation is beyond the comprehension of anyone older than she, but that definitely not reason to jest at her hurried and likely frustrated typing, yet I digress.

At 35 I find it so amusing as these teenagers constantly remind me that I "just don't understand", and this absurd assumption is based solely on my unfortunate increase in gray (LoL). Yet being a Musician/Producer and Freelance Jounalist I am well aware of teen-angst, and Ashley let me assure you it exists in every generation. As for "Cutters", I once delved into the practice, as did many others I know. I am a composer/lyricist of a hybrid industrial/crunk genre who definitely has always had a thugged and dark approach to Music. I am definitely a cynical individual who detests censorship and conformity, and I believe that with stores like Hot Topic in Malls nationwide it is comical when these teenage rebels honestly believe they are so unique. Personally, my tattoos, piercings, and casual dress are not my image, they are simply for personal reason.

I have also dealt with depression, anxiety, stress, and severe rage issues and why should I lie about being so frustrated at times past where both homicidal and suicidal thoughts crossed my mind? The difference between me and Alyssa is I lived during a period of time that children were not expendable, and people were willing to take the time and effort to help. Being the father of a 15 y.o. daughter, I ask only how is it that more people want only to remedy the symptom and never fix the problem?

Not jesting at her.........truly cannot follow her! Hot Topic and the like, is a subject all on its own, that is for sure. The shopping struggle that is propelling our youth to be so unique and "deep" and unual only puts them just like everyone else--and just like every other generation of young people. And now we see boys wearing eyeliner. Girls wearing all black. Even skulls (which really do represent death) are embraced as our young people decorate themselves. Stupidly,the last couple of years these skulls were on underwear and had bows on them. Its all about darkness and the joke that these kids (or anyone at any age) is so misunderstood and so deep that they must look this way...or cut themselves (and of course tell others and show others their boo-boos). Its all messed up. Somewhere along the line parents stopped caring. Clearly Alyssa's parents didn't care one bit.

THIS STATEMENT: The shopping struggle that is propelling our youth to be so unique and "deep" and unual only puts them just like everyone else

Should have read *unusual* not "unual."

I think we all missed the point with Ashley she is not posting about Alyssa. She is crying out for herself. She starts about the killer Alyssa, then shifts it to cutting and clothing. She than goes back to cutting. This girl is crying out for help

I love swords, skulls, pagan symbology, etc. and let me go ahead and let people in on this little secret, a skull is the universal symbol of death, which I and millions of others embrace because we realize death is not an end but a transition. "Cutters" cut because of the feeling of release they get, when the blood flows they truly "feel" the pain they have built-up inside washing away, if only temporarily.

Again society in it's conformist mentality enmasse hides behind someone elses interpretation of Christian values and judges our kids neither worthy of the time or effort. Expendable Youth is the most sickening trend in 21st century America, and while those who continue to sing the praises of self, the unsung fight for what this great nation once promised... FREEDOM!!!

Alyssa, You remain in My Prayers!!!

I still feel sorry for Alyssa as I mentioned earlier, everywhere I go I see comments from angry people saying Alyssa should die or spend the rest of her life in jail, these people are just as guilty as they want someone to die/suffer and they have no excuse to say such things, the scaredmonkeys forum seems especially harsh towards her and I am surprised to read such hate toward this troubled girl.

Alyssa deserves to be treated and cared for until she is better. Other young people have done the same as Alyssa and have been treated then released to live productive lives so why shouldn't Alyssa have the same chance as them?

SOoo i realized My typing wasnt that goood and maybe my views are wrong--which they were.

well i didnt think any one was going to hear me. Oh and to marmee i apologize for my lack of good typing. yes i was a little frusturated. sadly i still deal with cutting and as a fifteen year old soon to be sixteen i am frusturated with her actions. yes i felt she gave people such as cutters a bad name. sadly people whom dress in such style known as scene, emo and goth often get labled as cutters. i feel thats gving them a bad name also. such as allyssa wearing them. im a cutter but i dont dress like that im your normal girl who dresses like some one you would find in chrucha (well i do go to chruch) but so does my friend and she is goth but she does not cut. my youthleader asked if she was due to the talk about alyssa.

Plug Ugly ha i seem have jumped the gun to quickly. oh and i find it intresting you do journalism. thank you for sharing your point. i was just in a rush and was in a bad mood at the time. but yes as an adult you do have a very good point. i deffinately respect your view.

Marmee i apologize about the unreadable post. But i do have to dissagree with you on this one comment you made. no its not about my typing. "Its all about darkness and the joke that these kids (or anyone at any age) is so misunderstood and so deep that they must look this way...or cut themselves " that comment is not nessicarily true. i know several people whom do not dress that way and arent into the whole hotopic style. on www.twloha.com i got the following quote from there. ohh and just so you know cutting can also be referd to as self injury

Self-injury, like many addictions, is often a coping mechanism to deal with some manner of internal pain, many who struggle with it also struggle with other issues such as eating disorders and alcohol and drug abuse. While self-injury may be someone’s way to cope with or relieve painful or hard-to-express feelings and is generally NOT a suicide attempt, relief is always temporary, and usually only perpetuates a destructive cycle that continues the struggle. This cycle often means that those who do not get help can become more depressed and shameful, adding to the pain and need for relief, thus perpetuating the cycle.

"The Dangers of Self-Injury - While self-injury may not be about attempting suicide, the damage done while harming oneself ALWAYS carries the risks of inflicting serious, and even lethal, harm to oneself regardless of whether suicide is intended or not. Also the continued cycle of addiction and self-harm, as in substance abuse and other eating disorders can have a destructive effect on one’s health both physically and mentally, and struggles worsen as time continues without treatment." -www.twloha .com

sandy
what i was saying is its nothing personal to adults you people are smart . its just im tired of people saying (mainly adults) saying all cutters are psychos like this girl. and i have been following the trial and well done some rethinking about the first post i made. im praying for this girl. no i wasnt crying out for help

so my point was not to cry out for my cutting to get help. my point was that i wanted to prove a point about this girl and that just becasue some people dress like her are crazy and psycho and will go around killing little girls. ever since this trial has started thats all i have heard about these people whom are dressing "Goth" . but my point was that im sick and tired of hearing people say that. i hear it alot.

I look forward to your responces

--Ashley

I agree Tim, I certainly don't think that prison is the right move for Alyssa, it will only further psychological damage as she will get no meaningful rehabilitation there.

Juveniles placed in adult prison are more likely to commit suicide and commit more violent acts upon their release than those treated in the juvenile system.

I know from experience that 15 year olds are far from being adults, due to lack of mental maturity and character development. Heck, 18 year olds aren't even there. Even at 20 I don't think we're all the way there yet.

To the people calling Alyssa a sociopath; psychologists and psychiatrists refrain from diagnosing juveniles with antisocial personality disorders due to the need to differentiate them from a developmental perspective; the character of a juvenile is more malleable and less fixed so even a heinous crime committed by a juvenile is not conclusive evidence of irretrievably depraved character.

Another thing, I don't think Alyssa should have been put on Prozac at her young age and kept on it when it apparently wasn't working. I believe these drugs in a developing mind could have influence and have contributed to her mental state.

Side-effects for Prozac include: apathy, abnormal thinking, hallucinations, hostility, irrational ideas, paranoid reactions, antisocial behavior, hysteria, and suicidal thoughts.

Regardless, of Prozac, her age apathy, suicidal thoughts, irrational ideas.(she carried out her ideas ) She is being tried as an adult.

I see why most people believe Alyssa should get nothing but the worst for what she has done, however...being tried as an adult at 15 years old, to me, seems a little harsh. Alyssa is a child herself. As all of you out there know, she hasnt had the best childhood. Though a 15 year old should know there would be severe consiquences for actions such as these, not all CHILDREN do. Especially ones that have a medicated mind as Alyssa does, and has had for some time now. Just because she said " I wanted to know what it felt like ", doesnt exactly mean thats why she did it. She may not know why she did it at all. Medications have different effects on people, and cause them to not always be themselves. I also dont believe its fair for people to bash her family for what she has done. Just because her parents have had some issues in their past, does not mean they have them now. Nobody has a problem pointing out her familys flaws...but what about Elizabeths family. Nobody is dwelling on the fact that BOTH her brother and Father are in jail on assault charges. Why not???? Because Elizabeth is the victom. Nobody knows how messed up that child could have been, or even what a piss poor family she has. Ask yourself this. If the situation were reversed and a 9 year old killed a 15 year old...would it be fair for her to be tried as an adult???

Misty,
What is your point? She had a bad childhood? Her father and bother are in prison? She had a piss poor family. A 9 year old child was murdered. Your example, the 9 year old murdered the 15 year old. That's not what went down. That is silly; However if it were the other way around, YES she should be tried as an adult. Don't for get the victim, this little girl was stabbed and her neck cut from ear to ear.
A slap in the hand and don't do it again will not do. A child is dead

Ashley, Thank You. I take Your words as a great compliment, and I say kudos on the recent post, which was very well thought-out, prepared, and presented. Yes, Journalism (i.e. freelance writing on the topics I choose to cover, which is mostly Music) is one of My many passions. I love to just clear My mind and let the words flow. I feel like I imagine DaVinci or Picasso must have felt with every brush stroke, only words are My paint and paper (or posts) are My canvas. Yet Music is My true love, and wheteher in working to promote, produce, or perform, I feel free when I'm in the studio or on a stage, but I digress (LoL).

I hope maybe I can help You in some way in dealing with all the pressures associated with being a teen-ager, and having become a father at 19 gave Me an inherent wisdom to know that it would be vital for Me to never become estranged with My own early years. Even now at 35 I assure You that as the father of a newly turned 16 year old daughter I amaze My daughter, neices, nephews, etc, with My ability to maintain a fair understanding that reaches across generations, all because I have no issue with remembering what it was like in the late 80's and 90's coming up in a generation that actually began to rebel against the status quo and see many barriers of race, gender, orientation, etc. all lose the power they once had to keep people in division.

I was amazed by Your writing, and the depth and complexity in which You opened the door on discussion of certain issues is a very mature move on your part. Let Me give You an open invite Kid, if You have a question about something, or want an opinion on an issues let Me hear it. I definitely want to talk more to such an interesting and intelligent Young Woman. PEACE.

Remember Alyssa!!!

Ashley thanks for your post and clarification. I do still believe that people (okay maybe not all of them)who cut, are doing it for attention. I do understand that even if it is for attention, there is a problem. Just a different kind of problem. But maybe more to my point, should have been that a lot of kids (my youth group) are doing this to "fit in." Its become another group, like scene or emo. Its almost all on its own. FB status messages quoting depressing or anger-filled songs along with these kids announcing in group settings (such as youth groups) that they have an issue with cutting. Or they'll pull up their sleeve and "show you" their cuts. So far, all I have ever seen in these kids are scratches at best. Or pokes. Still not good--still in need of help---just a different kind. Not really a self-injury type thing. More like just wanting some focused attention. I hate that cutting is now a fad. Its a horrible category to have been created! But I do believe that's what it is. I disagree with most of what Pug Ugly has to say. However, I agree with him on his assesment and opinion in your recent post being well prepared and presented, as well as your maturity. Thank you for giving us the time and sharing your thoughts! (and I have plenty of days where my typing is lacking much, my apologies for my first comment about your post).

BRANDON- THANKS FOR THE RUDE REMARK BUT I DIDN'T ASK FOR YOU'RE OPINION. IT MAY NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC SHE LISTENS TO OR THE PEOPLE THAT SURROUND HER, MAYBE SHE'S JUST LOST AND CLEARLY SAD.. I WAS JUST READING WHAT I WROTE FOR THE FIRST TIME AND I APOLOGIZE FOR EVEN WRITING SUCH A THING.. I WAS IN SHOCK AT THE TIME AND THINKING BACK TO THE NIGHT I HEARD THAT STORY, I REMEMBER NOT BEING ABLE TO SLEEP BECAUSE ALL MY THOUGHTS WERE REVOLVING AROUND HER HURTING THAT LITTLE GIRL.. I COULD LITERALLY VISUALIZE IT AND IT KIND OF MADE ME REALIZE THAT MY BAD THOUGHTS FOR HER WERE TOO STRONG, IT WAS DRAINING ME. SO I PRAYED FOR HER AND HER FAMILY AND I TAKE BACK SAYING THOSE MEAN THINGS ABOUT HER, I TRULY FEEL BAD FOR HER FAMILY AND I HOPE SHE CAN EVENTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT SHE DID WAS WRONG AND MAYBE EVEN CHANGE THE WAY OTHERS THINK.. MAYBE THEY'LL THINK TWICE BEFORE HURTING SOMEONE.. I TAKE BACK THAT NIGHT SENDING HER AN INVITATION TO HELL... I AM TRULY SORRY AND HOPE THAT PEOPLE DON'T TAKE THAT THE WRONG WAY..

That is sad it really is. I mean really look at the eniviroment she's been around with her parents, somehow that could have triggerd her thoughts about death, not suicide. Counsoling should be part of her sentence. But if your some sad pathetic lil bastard that only says "wow she's hot" get a fuckin life.

Plug ugly.
Thank you so much! i very much so apperciate it. i acutally want to become a writer. writing is one of my passions. anyways the main reason im hear was the previous post but i also am doing a current events project. we were allowed to choose anytopic and this one caught my attenion. I get she is being tried for murder. Yet leagally one dosent become an offical adult till the age of 18. alyssa is only fifteen. i dont get that, one she was mentally unstable, also shouldnt she be tried as a youth. that dosent make sense.

marmee,
so i gather your a youth leader. Oh and i agree with you also on the fact that there are alot of kids that cut to get attention. the kids in your youth group and from the sounds of it you have an very very good point. i might have a reference for you if i come across it i can leave it for you. yes alot of music not only in FB do contain depressing thoughts. ive stopped listening to that and started listening to christan bands. it really makes a difference.

I really do appreciate you all letting me in the conversation. please pray for alyssa

--Ashley

As far as I am concerned Alyssa deserves at best life in prison. She already admitting to the cruel murder once. Pleading not guilty is redicilous. If the trial venue is changed it still won't matter. Every parent has sat back and thought that it could have been their child that was so cruely murdered. In my opinion she has already sealed her own fate. There is no help for a person like this.

"Ok, I admitted I killed her, told you why, and showed you where I burried her body and dug an additional grave, but I'm not guilty." WTF?!

Maybe they're trying for an insanity plea? I hope the appeal doesnt go through and she stands trial in Jefferson City. Its her own fault that shes brought upon prejudices against herself.

Gina, nice try. lol, ha, ha, ha, lol

She admitted but she can plea not guilty for the case
juveniles aren't fully culpable for their actions.

life imprisonment is actually unconstitutional for a juvenile and adult court a little harsh for a 15 year old don't you think??

Lae
We know she murdered Elizabeth , Unconstitutional for a juvenile ," No." She is going to plea not guilty that we also know! She is going to be tried as an adult anyway that is already been determined by a judge. She is also in big girl jail waiting trial. Not harsh at all considering she murdered a child just for the fun of it. That's a little HARSH isn't it for a 9 year old?

I found this petition! Maybe some of you might want to sign it :)

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/freealyssa/

Joey, why would you want to "free" a person that admitted to cold blooded murder, against a 9 year old at that? I'm not trying to come down on you, I just want to understand your opinion. Maybe we should start a petition to bring out the witch doctors or anyone else who can raise the dead and bring all of the innocent back to life.

life in jail would be torture for Alyssa especially with her depression and anxiety problems, she's only young and could be rehabilitated in a place that can help her instead. She needs a 2nd chance.
There is evidence that Prozac can make some people homicidal, maybe this is what happened to Alyssa? Maybe the drug pushed her to do this? I've taken various antidepressants in the past and I had to stop because of the side effects which were mostly tiredness and stomach pain for me but I know that the side effects vary for different people and may even cause homicidal thoughts in some individuals. I hope people can reconsider their previous thoughts of Alyssa and sign the petition

Elizabeth dose not get a second chance. She's never going to do anything, she's dead. Alot of people take anti-depressants, they don't kill for the sake of killing to see what it feels like. Elizabeth will never feel anything again. Alyssa sealed her fate. A Judge has determined that she will be tried as an adult. She will spend a long time in prison to thinking about Elizabeth. Alyssa can think about what it felt like to take another person's life for 65 years.

Poor sweet elizabeth. may God bless her n her family. feel bad for alyssas fam too. prolly blaming theirselves, wondering where they went wrong. as for alyssa, idk what should happen to her. if it were my child i would wanna do terrible painful things to her, then kill her. but since she doesnt have any children she cannot know just how terrible her crime was. b4 i had kids my life felt so empty. after i had them i felt love i never knew existed. she doesnt no the bond she has broken.

Elizabeth, may u b safe w. God sweetheart, too ur parents n all who loved u, may God b w. u. ive seen a lot of posts that dont even have Elizabeths name in them. every1 talkin bout their opinions n views on shit, well it is what it is n if u want 2 change it, this is not the way. as far as alyssa she is not a mother, never felt that kinda luv. n she should never get the chance. she broke the greatest bond their is. might getta penpal wherever ab goes pay em 2 beat her everyday. she had a hard life? boo hoo

Elizabeth u were a beautiful child, n i bet u make an even more beautiful angel. poor baby should b home anxious 4 x-mas, enjoyin winter break, not buried n a cold lonely grave. alyssa was ur life hard? cry me a river bitch. a lot of kids dont have cells, horses, pools, n all the shit u had. i wish EO's mom got ahold of u b4 the cops, n sent u 2 hell! u were bored 1 day n thought ud kill a child 2 kill some time? smug little bitch. who the fuck do u think u r? God will show u who u arnt--HIM! u had no rite

Guy's,

I'm sorry for being a douchbag and for trolling I was just frustrated at some of these comments and never been here before and plus I just like to mess with people. Please forgive me It wont happen again, Honest

Mike H,Kelly,Cretan,Anne,Sandy,Melb and and Whatever I'm sorry I made you mad I will try to temper my responses, I meant to come apologize sooner but my comp wasn't working.

But Alyssa is just 15, life in prison is cruel and unusual punishment and cannot be permitted or allowed to pass. I think too that adult court with a jury and all is a little much for a 15 year old.

No one is excusing what she did, but she has psychological problems and needs to receive help for them. No one is saying wacko trash parents are an excuse for anything but she clearly has not had relations/bonds with adults in her life or she wouldn't have behaved this way.

I truly believe we are headed toward barbarism based on some of these primitive comments and I don't understand why you don't see why kids are out of control based on your own behaviour and failure to set an example.

First I'm suprised my over-analytical mind did not come to terms with the fact she was on anti-depressants, everyone keeps bringing this up so I decided to do research and yes these drugs have been linked to homicidal and psychotic behaviour and actually I remember reading somewhere Prozac was sued over the homicidal behaviour it caused. And actually this drugs were tested on lab rats and some of them became aggressive and homicidal on them.

And second of all, to recant some of the statments I made out of frustration- I do not think alyssa knew what she was doing she is derranged and young and actually I do not think she awore the consequences of her actions.

And Joey, thanks for the petition I will sign it.

Emily,
Not speaking for anyone else, you do not have to apologize to me. You are right, in a small percentage of people taking Anti-depressants do have side affects. The percent is 5%. 18 Years and under the side affects are more predominate. Regardless of how hard you try to understand Adults or Adult court, it is not going to change the out- come for this girl. She is being tried as an adult. That's a fact. You keep talking about her needing help, not a life time of prison. After Alyssa is sentenced to prison, she will get a mental evaluation. The appropiate medication, along with theropy will be given to her. She is and will pay back society for murder, at the same time get the help she needs for herself.

Every thim I see that stubid bitch's face with that black shit on her eys her finger pointer to her head and that big hole she call a month wide open it makes me sick. I wish it was a real gun and she had pulled the triger.

That was a helloween photo, the media has shown that photo more than some of her more 'normal' photos, probably to make her look all bad and sinister.

I know a lot of people think she's an evil monster but she is just a human being with feelings just like the rest of us. She was even excited about getting kittens a few weeks before her arrest.

That's proably why she dug the two grave one for a body and the other for the kittens

when I think back to the days when I was young, I wasn't fully awaring of the consequences of my actions how they would affect others or my future.

when you're young you really are ignorant and in some cases don't really think about or know what you're doing, and only realise that when you think back when you're older.

the youth are also very impressionable, and they also don't have the expeirance of an older person to think off of and make well thought out desicions. were it is true that some delinquent juveniles grow into adult criminals, most delinquent juveniles grow out of their anti-social mentality.

if bustamante girl were in my country she would get a few year because she's so young; our country sees low juvenile crime and repeat offenders air scarce
harsher penalties (what the US is hung up on) is not the reason for it.

and this is simple to understand if you look into the consensus of science - harsher penalties aren't going to deter youth crime because the youth are not able to fully appreciate the concequences of their actions.

whatever be the case bustamante girl is clearly in need of professional help and is definitely dealing with some mental impairments. locking her up is not going to solve her issues and is a cold and inhuman thing to do to a sad and obviously confused 15 year old.

I think the US is immoral as a country and I can see where you're kids get their criminal from, it is my position that no one under 18 should stand trial as an adult and no one under the age of 21 should be getting LWOP.

The Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by every country in the world except the United States and Somalia, forbids LWOP for juveniles, and at least 132 countries have rejected the sentence altogether. There is no correlation between the use of the sentence and youth crime rates.

Quit treating your Teens as something they are Not AMERICA!! Fyi: The brain does not fully developed until into a person's 20's ::

You haved raised some excellent points 4 edu purp.

Firstly; Sending Alyssa to jail for the rest of her life is unfathomably cruel, spending your youth and young adult life locked away in a small concrete cell from the age of 15 with no hope of ever gaining freedom in the future is 1000 times worse than being murdered imo, especially for an expressive young girl like Alyssa. This is the main reason why I signed this petition;
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/freealyssa/

Secondly; Society needs to share some of the blame for what Alyssa did, you can't just make a problem go away by severly punishing an individual like Alyssa, there are so many questions that need to be asked.

and finally, Sandy, I don't think Alyssa would have hurt animals, she seemed to target Elizabeth specifically, I assume they might have disliked each other..

I don't think her punishment or any punishment for that matter is ever a deterrent for someone else to not behave in the same way. If we all learned from other people's mistakes, drunk driving would never happen, we wouldn't touch wet paint when a sign is there telling us not to, etc. The point of the punishment is not necessarily to deter. The point of the punishment is to show her that she took something from someone (in this case a life); therefore, her life is going to suck from now on.

For edu purp, I would like to know exactly what your country does to deter underage criminals, since that seems to be what you think the sentence is about. I believe that punishment is called punishment for a reason. It isn't called a deterring sentence, a teach the other kids a lesson sentence, it's called punishment. If I hit you, I should be punished. If I kill you, I should be punished more harsh than I was if I had hit you.

Concerned Citizen
You must be a mother, so am I. As parents we are the first to realize that what this animal did is barbaric to say the least. These childish comments are disturbing. What ever happened to being responsible for one's own actions? I hope this bitch rots in Hell.
C4 edu purp, Joey, This is what most of us think of Alyssa!

Anon, re your comment:

"Start by getting rid of this girl--if proven guilty--who cannot tell the difference between killing someone in a computer game and destroying a living human being. "

What part of the article said a single fucking word about video games? You're one of those boring fucks who drag it into every argument about violence and blame digital entertainment for every last one of society's many ills, aren't you. Blow it out your ass.

Slightly off topic but does anybody know what kind of privliges prisoners get at christmas? Would somelike like AB be allowed more visiting time for her family to visit her, christmas food etc???

Sandy, I do have a daughter, but even if I didn't, I still would not be dumb enough to think that her punishment would be a form of deterrence for future generations. I believe that at 15, you should be held accountable for your actions. At 15, you know what is right and what is wrong. Even if you have homicidal thoughts, or suicidal thoughts, you still know that it's not right to act on them.

I am glad that you agree with me on this subject though!!! Thanks Sandy!!!

Alyssa Bustamante is NOT GUILTY

1) She's being tried as an adult which she is cognitivity and developmentally NOT it's retarded to make her stand trial as an adult before a jury, it doesn't matter if her crime is deemed as evil/heinous that's no logical basis to hold her accountable as an adult.

2) SSRIs are bad news. look at the side effects...confusion, abnormal thinking, apathy, hostility, anti-social behaviour, look at the "homicidal and suicidal" warnings. PROZAC... an antidepressant linked to teen homicide-

the clinical global impression improvement scale based on two studies showed that of those tested on prozac only 39% showed any reasonable improvement from taking this drug.

Put the two and two together alyssa's been medicated for over 2 years, drugged senseless succumbing to homicidal affects.

3) "ADULT CRIME ADULT TIME" wow, not only is that illogical and make zero sense, equating nature of conduct with determining whether a juvenile be tried as an adult is also not justified or logically sound.

Life without parole shouldn't even be a consideration in Bustamante's case. The imposition of the death penalty or life without parole sentences on juveniles are prohibited and constitute a human rights violation of the following international treaties:

* Convention On the Rights of the Child, Article 37
* International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;
* United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Administration of Juvenile Justice;
* United Nations Guidelines for the Prevention of Juvenile Delinquency; United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment;
* American Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Man; and
* Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture

"It would be misguided to equate the failing of a minor with those of an adult, for a greater possibility exists that a minor's character deficiencies will be reformed." (Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551, 125 S.Ct. 1183, 1195 (2005)

END THE INJUSTICE.

R*E*A*D T*H*I*S

Your are exactly right. Our government does not even obey it's own laws. She cannot be tried as an adult, because she is not one. She cannot legally own anything, she cannot legally enter into a contract (the confession) she cannot vote, drink, have a job without special premission from her parent, or refuse medication. She is as much a victim as poor Elizabeth, I could not even look at her picture, she is so sweet and now gone forever. The people to blame are the supposedly responsible adults, the parents, the doctor, the therapist, - how could a therapist see her on a daily basis and not realize how demented she was? They should be held responsible first and then on down the line to Alyssa. Why was no adult searching her personal things like you're supposed to do with a teen? This could have been prevented but nowadays, mental health care has taken on the slam bam thank you m'aam route as regular healthcare. These idiots hand out these psyche med's and sit back and watch the carnage. Other countries have "homocidal ideation" on the warning for SSRI's. Not America. We string up our poor, our intellectually defenseless, our children, our sufferring people by their own hand. They need to change the words on the Statue of Liberty.

This is a bottle of LIzzie Borden.

A modern medical Frankenstien brought to you compliments of Ely Lilly. This is the first in the history of the world pharmacologically created teen girl serial killer.

Concerned Citizen

You are a boob-headed idiot. I have a daughter, too and thank God she has the brain power I have passed on to her. You are the poster child for "stay in school." I can tell you are a 3rd grade drop out Stepford Republican wife. If what you say is true, then you should hold yourself responsible for all the nasty shit-headed things you said and did when you were 15 and start apologizing and let us know when you're done, if you live that much longer. You need to look up "Le Marquis de Sade", or "Quills" and look into that movie. It's a parallel of the Duke du Sade (where we get the word "sadism" from, b/c I'm sure you don't know.) and the plight of the French peasants before the French Revolution written by an old duke du Sade who sits in prison and writes about why he is there.

Concerned Citizen,

I'm sorry, I thought you were on a different track. I went back and read your other posts and they make sense. My previous posts go to anyone who thinks she should be tried as an adult. notice how they always try these kids as an adult when there are anti-depressants involved? this is getting a little old.

JaneWilder, you were correct in believing that I thought she should be tried as an adult and here is why:

In a previous article I posted:

I am not a physician or involved in the medical field in any way so I want to qualify all of my further comments by saying that my technical knowledge in this area is very limited. However, from what I understand, even in my profession, when some item (whether it is medicinal, edible, drivable, etc.) enters the market for general public use, the people who provide this product have weighed risks of use. This means that they take into consideration all liablility that can be put on their company for their product. In other words, they do substantial testing (in the case of meds, through the FDA) to determine any detrimental side effects from their products (in cars, recalls are considered in this manner). What is the overall risk to the population by providing this product? How many people are outside the "norm" that could be harmed by this product? Therefore, I believe that the number of people who are harmed or have negative side effects from meds are considerably low compared to the number of people who can take the meds without any further problems (as long as they follow directions or guidelines provided by the company as far as the manner of use for the product). Therefore, my conclusion is that although there could be horrible side effects in some people taking these drugs, I do not for one second believe that we can strike them out completely.

In addition, I do not believe that we can just sit back and blame mental condition for people's actions (nor medication). I understand that we cannot control our thoughts. I do however understand that we can control our actions. There are plenty of people out there that have thought about killing themselves (maybe even thought of killing others); however, there are plenty that never did it because they can control that action and have deemed it unnecessary, selfish, whatever other reasons they chose.

Also, Jane, I am very educated and not a Republican; although I believe my political views and/or education have nothing to do with this at all.

Concerned Citizen- I agree completely. Especially about the part about people being able to control their actions. Whatever mental issues they have, if they for whatever reason have low self control and cannot stop themselves from going through with terrible acts such as murder, they should have contacted a physician or psychologist. People ARE responsible for their actions. Regardless of age, or medical history. If they weren't, how many people would be out doing whatever they pleased knowing they had the excuse of having a medical history for depression and so forth.

I was one of the first to start questioning the drugs alyssa was taking as it seems like such a 'red light' and I for one am very happy that this issue of SSRI's is becoming more talked about in this case - not just here but on her petition and on other forums and blogs. When it comes to pharmaceuatical companies and in particular antidepresant drugs there is a lot that isn't said and should be brought to the attention of the public. We all know about the horror stories that many many people have from taking antidepressant drugs, you only need to google them. I have my own.

I personally think that the media hasn't put enough emphasis on the role Prozac might have had on Alyssa's mood and personality and how it might have contibuted to her mindset and lowered her inhibitions in the weeks or months leading up to that night.

Also when I mentioned that society should take some of the blame in one of my last posts I was mostly talking about her doctors and medical intervention (medication). I feel somethings gone wrong here with her treatment.

I hope my post makes sense

Gina, did you also see how I was able to dispute her comment without calling names and insulting education level??? It appears that Jane and some others might need lessons in that field.

Joey, your comment makes sense as far as your feelings for the medication. However, you did not mention whether you think she is responsible or not.

While I agree that anyone taking medications that alter mental state should do so only under strict medical supervision, I still do not agree that we can blame the medications for murder. At 15, I did many wrongs. Does that mean that I didn't know it was wrong? Why no, it simply means that I had no care for the repercussions or the side effects of my actions. To me and most 15 year olds, you know what is wrong and why, you just don't have any care for authority. At 15, you constantly stay in trouble or at least feel that you do. So what's the difference in doing one more thing i.e. smoke a cigarette, have some boone's farm, smoke a joint, etc. While I did many bad things as a teenager, I never killed or even tried to kill someone. People should be punished for their actions, period.

Concerned Citizen,

It doesn't matter what any of us thinks about the drug issue. None of us have enough information about the effects of these drugs because it is hidden from the FDA and then from the public. Do you really think they would actually recall a drug that nets 800 million dollars a year and provides millions of dollars in user fees to the FDA? I guess Saturn wasn't a big enough money maker for the government, maybe because their cars don't blow up. If you could give me an example of another girl in that age group who said they killed someone "just to see what it felt like" who was not on any medication, then I would see that you have some kind of substance behind your opinion, but there isn't one. We will never know exactly how much of an effect Prozac had on her mind because it's too late, with or without medication, she is scarred for life at this point. But she is still not an adult.

WARNING:
DO NOT START ANY PSYCH MED PRESCRIPTION WITHOUT FIRST CONSULTING AN ATTORNEY about the possbile penalties for murder, assault, rape, molestation, abduction, theft, fraud, DUI, etc. Anti-Depressants and Anti-Psychotics are mind-altering drugs and are more times than not, prescribed for uses they are not approved for by the FDA, and can have serious behavioral side effects. (ie, drugs such as Lexapro which are approved by the FDA for Major Depressive Disorder are routinely prescribed for mild to moderate depression.) In most circumstances, you will be held fully accountable for any criminal acts you commit while taking these drugs . Millions of people are currently incarcerated or deceased due to incidents while taking or withdrawing from these drugs. Some are children tried as adults sentenced to life. Your doctor, the FDA, and the makers of these drugs are not held accountable to patients, only to government agencies whom can fine them, no matter how gross their mis-conduct is. You should consult with an attorney after reading the possible side effects BEFORE starting any new prescriptions because these drugs are also highly addictive and once taken, cannot be discontinued in any time short of months. (The poster of this warning does not claim to be an attorney or know the law .)

Jane, while I'm not really up to date with every murder that has ever happened, I cannot believe that this is the only person that has killed just "to see what it feels like." If we start blaming the meds, then just about anyone who commits a crime could be relieved from their punishment. There are so many people on meds, so many. There are so many people who have been helped by them. I've seen it with my own eyes. So don't sit here and act like you know something that the FDA doesn't even have the ability to know. I understand money and greed and corruption. I understand that money can help someone look the other way, but I can't sit here and believe that every doctor in the US and other countries as well as every person that works for the FDA would sit back and let meds be the cause of murder after murder. If what you say is true, then there would have to be many other people in the correct fields that would have the same assumptions and somewhere along the line, something would have been done about it already.

Concerned Citizen,
You can't give an example of murders by children where meds weren't involved because there are none. It's too late for prevention. The government and the FDA have only to be able to contain the carnage at this point. Look up drug sales for 2008 in the US. Anti-depressants start at number 7 on top of list and account for 12 billion in drug sales in 2008. The only thing above them is cholesterol and hi BP meds. Do you honestly think with our aging baby-boomer population that there would be more actual cases of medication-requiring mental illnesses than diabetes? Why do you think the FDA approved Lexapro for teens after the DOJ found that medicaid was paying a bunch of off-label prescription claims? So there aren't thousands of kids withdrawing from Lexapro across the US. It's a matter of public safety.

Ok, I was confused. I thought you wanted me to give you an example of a kid that wasn't on meds that killed just to see what it felt like. However, yes, I have an example. Eric Smith, 13, killed a 4 year old boy because he wanted to know what it felt like to hurt someone else and not be the one that was hurting. He wasn't on meds, at least not from what the stories I have read hae said. In fact, some of them say the opposite, say that maybe meds could have helped him to not become violent. We will never know either way. All I'm saying to you is that we can't blame meds. People do things on or off of drugs. For every medicated person out there, there is someone that isn't medicated. For every murderer out there, there are tons of people that aren't murderers. The ratios just seem a little off and don't even seem to make sense to me.

That said,
There is your one example but here are mine:
Columbine-court ordered psych meds, one of the victims one a lawsuit against the drug maker.
VA Tech shooting
Christopher Pittman
Kurt Danysh
Alyssa
7-old hangs himself-on 4 psych meds
http://myrcc.com/ken/?m=200904

I am not personally attacking you but there are way more responsible parties than just Alyssa. It sounds like she was just on her own. Why wasn't her throwing herself and her brothers into an electrified fence addressed and she be detained in an institution immediately after that. Seriously, what if your daughter did that. Wouldn't you be vigilant into monitoring her behavior after such a disturbing activity? She should have never been free to do this in the first place. Why does all this stuff come out only after poor Elizabeth is gone. This could have been prevented. Isn't the whole idea of having mental health intervening to prevent such tragedies?

I certainly believe that if any case merits a wrongful death lawsuit, it would certainly be this one and I'm sure the family will file one and win a huge settlement from Prozac. I cannot imagine the utter destruction of her mother's mind in response to this. That little girl's picture I can barely stand to look at. She looks like the most sweet, loving little angel I have ever seen and the responsible parties deserve to pay dearly, Alyssa being one of those parties among many.

Just because I didn't list more doesn't mean there aren't more. I just didn't know any and did a quick search and that was the first one that I found. However, I do agree with you to an extent that she isn't the only one responsible. I have said before on a different article that I believe that parents should be held accountable to an extent. In the situation where the child was raised by the parents to the best of their ability and the child is just a bad apple, then no, the parents shouldn't be charged. However, I feel that if children are abused, neglected, abandoned, etc. and that child does something illegally, then the parents should be held responsible as well. If we enforced laws where parents had to take care of their kids, I can assure you that the bad parents wouldn't be having near as many. I will always and have always felt responsible for my child's behavior. I don't think that feeling would change if she did something illegal. That being said, I don't for one second believe that meds are to blame for this. I also don't believe she shouldn't be tried as an adult.

Concerned Citizen,
Believe what you want. Until you are shot by some medicated person who ramdomly goes crazy in a mall. I utterly cannot believe that you would hold her parents and her responsible as an adult when she clearly is not one. They have name for this, it's called "empancipated minor", which she is not. And not hold any of the powers that be responsible for what looks like GROSS negligence on their part. To not know or not care to know that she is throwing herself and brothers into an electrified fence? Come on, these mental health idiots need more treatment than the people they are treating. They think they are smart and jsut dispense drugs and unlease it on the public because they know they won't be held accountable. The people want to keep taking the drugs because they make you high and are addictive so they are not going to ask to be taken off of them.

Jane, did you read what I wrote? I feel that others are responsible. I just don't feel that the medicine is responsible. The SSRI's are like any other topic: economics, religion, physics. Two people can be equally educated on the topic and still maintain different opinions. That being said, I'm not very educated on this subject, but I do know that if I believed there was some big conspiracy behind everything, including antipsychotic drugs, then I would live in a world of paranoia. I don't feel there is a conspiracy. I do feel that the FDA wouldn't allow a drug to enter the market without extensive studies. If they were so bad, they would be pulled. Some of these drugs have been around for years and years.

Concerned Citizen,
No no. There's no conspiracy. Did you ever hear the saying "throw shit up against the wall and see what sticks?" It's all about what they can get away with and make money. The drugs are not the problem, it's the method of dispensing, 50% of psych meds are prescribed by primary care phsyicians. What kind of follow up do they give? They are addictive and make people happy (they work like pot increasing seratonin levels) It's like putting a drunk driver behind the wheel of a tractor trailer.

But you put much weight on Alyssa and her upbringing.

I don't believe she would have had the balls to do it without the drug.

I think the drug is 95% responsible and other factors play 5%

I personally don't believe you can sit back and blame all of the physicians for it either. First off, therapists have to earn the trust of their patients or the patients will never tell them everything. People hide facts from their therapists and their physicians. Also, the parents, grandparents in this case, are the ones that are around the child more than anyone. They should be the ones looking for signs, they should be the ones to help prevent the unimaginable from becoming reality. I know that I only see my doctors from time to time; therefore, they have no idea what is going on in my head unless I tell them. Doctors and therapists are NOT mind readers. They can only make judgment calls based on what they know.

As far as the conspiracy, you had said that the FDA and public only hears what the pharmaceutical companies want us to hear. That, to me, implied that you think that the money they earn from the drugs makes them conspire to keep the "truth" from being told. I was simply going off what you had said.

Conerned Citizen,
My point exactly. Why should a doctor that you only see from time to time be allowed to prescribe mind altering drugs? They shouldn't. As far as the FDA is concerned they do suck up to the drug companies b/c they provide them with a bunch of user fees, millions of dollars. But it's no conspiracy. The way the laws are, the drug companies are not accountable unless EVERY person who takes the drug experiences the same side effect. That's why they're still on the market, because ten thousand murders/suicides are not proof enough, it would have to be 25 million. They don't have to have a conspiracy. They can commit their crimes in full view because they are protected the law.

The reason that people don't see their doctors regularly are plentiful: patients cancel appointments because of time constraints, can't pay co-pays, can't afford the visit if they aren't covered by insurance, only want to see the doctor to get the meds in the first place. We can't force everyone to go to appointments. Also, as far as suicide goes, there are plenty of people not on medication that have suicidal tendencies. I have seen that for myself also.

This story and the response it gets from the public is a sad portrait of our culture. Although I do see a few very understanding responses to this issue on this page, these get shouted down on the air at CNN. Firstly, Americans seek to blame, and, of course, because we are not truly a moral society (genocide, slavery, corporate fascism, and the rape of the natural world in a search for filthy wealth are just a few samples of our collective cruelty), we get it wrong, over and over, no matter how many people die horrible deaths. We are numb to our own murders, the ones we pay for with out taxes. We turn our heads away from our collective guilt. Our response to 9-11 is a perfect example of revenge gone mad. The "Shock Doctrine" works like a charm because of this cultural flaw. On Nancy Grace's show I take the pulse of the bottom feeders, because Nancy Grace is a victim who, like Alyssa, is acting out, calling for blood and torture, wallowing in hatred and revenge, putting aside understanding for a knee-jerk revenge reaction that can last a lifetime. Nancy needs a clue, but she is empowered in her anger, so no clue will be perceived. Do you think the murder of Nancy Grace's former husband justifies her hatred for a young girl who made a horrible mistake under the influence of drugs, neglect and apathy. What things have happened to this child that only she knows of? Empathy in our culture is becoming more and more a liability, a perceived weakness as we fall further and further into chaos. I cry for both the victims in this crime. One child is dead. The other is to be tortured for life simply because no one listened to her pleas for help, which, as an artist, I see as amazingly literal, easy to understand and very powerful. Our poor children! Do you watch television? It's killing, killing, killing, revenge, revenge, revenge. Even romance is based on death and sponsored by drugs, drugs, drugs. Read the available statistics on teenage deaths caused by the use of anti-depressants (overdose, homicide, suicide)! Our health care system is not about healing, it is about money. Period! Doctors are money-grubbing drug dealers. If you are poor, too bad--you deserve to die! You are weak. Weakness attracts those who torture and we know who tortures don't we. WE DO, EVERY DAY. Everyone is a judge and jury. It's an ugly picture that citizens of other countries see VERY clearly. Welcome to the USA where the children are blamed for the sins of their fathers and mothers. Please, everyone, understand that a 15 year old needs guidance and understanding BEFORE she gets to a point of no return. She is not at that point, even now, after having committed murder! She can be helped, saved, and forgiven. The blood lust she showed is no comparison to the blood lust of the American soul. How many people must die at the hands of Nancy Grace? One death should be lesson enough. Punishment has no meaning in a country that kills out of frustration, using lies as a basis for murdering millions in Iraq.

Lee Bridges

Thanks for your voice of reason. At least I know there is one other person on this planet that deals in logic. You make a good point that we have not come very far from being easily led lemmings from the times of the inquisition, holocaust and crucifixtion. To believe that a 15 year old girl should be tried as an adult based on the type of crime they committed is very illogical and reminicsent of thinking of what constitutes adulthood from back in cave man times. If the 15 year old had a child, she would be phsysically able to have it, but mentally and in our current society, unable to provide financially for it at all. In cave man times, people had to be considered an adult and pretty much were physically at her age because they would have to have children since the life expectency of cave men was only 16 to 20 years old. In our current society, this disparity between physical age and mental age is like a mehcanical defect in the human design. So maybe we should all try to move toward the 21st century a little more.

You make seriously good point about 9-11; If we were all as smart and good as we think and thought about that a little (not going to get rational thought out of Bush) we should have done NOTHING and the whole world would still feel sorry for us today. That PR would be worth all the oil in the world. Instead, all the other countries hate us and make us pay full price. Who pays, the average person bears all cost.

When a medication is prescribed to you, is it your and your guardian's responsibility to watch for side effects or your doctor's? Maybe the doctors are quick to write prescriptions. An easy fix. But aren't we also quick to just pop anything into our mouths without any consideration of the effects? If that is the case, then any side effects from the medicines that we voluntarily take will then be our responsibility, not the doctor's. If these meds are actually causing people to kill, as you say they are, then it is still the killer's fault that it happened. At 15, at the very least, Alyssa was plenty old enough to read the side of a prescription bottle and understand what it was that she was taking.

Concerned Citizen,
You have too strong a desire to simplify this. This is a very complex situation. You have Alyssa, a known to mental health, and decidedly disturbed 15 year old girl. Deadbeat parents who are not competent to take care of her. Younger siblings. Grandmother in charge of her, who knows how old she is or what her state of health and competency to care for these children is. Look what has already happened under the grandmother's supervision. I can't say that I can picture anything like that happening at my house since I feel I would be competent to see the about a million warning signs that led up to this. A controversial psychotropic drug which was originally intended for use by adults with major depressive disorder (this is the diagnosis just before catatonic depression where the person is unresponsive) This is a very serious state where major life functions such as work, sleeping, eating, being involved with life are affected. Alyssa was going to school and socializing and doing her bizarre behaviors. She was not sitting in the corner withdrawn and crying. She probably should not even have been prescribed this drug because her suicide attempt could have been a cry for attention (keep in mind, this would have happened when she was 13.) or in relation to her "cutting" which was her stated hobby. Suicide has nothing to do with cutting. Cutting addictions are an addiction to th brain's chemicals endorphins being released when a cut is made or some other injury occurs, like a drug addiction. The problem with these drugs is that they act on the brain like pot, increasing seratonin levels. They make people happy so no matter what other ill effects they have on the thinking process or a person's life, the person will probably not voluntarily stop taking them unless the side effects are so severe and life-threatening they don't have a choice. So, even stating that people VOLUNTARILY take these meds is not a whole truth. Have you ever actually seen the package insert on a psych med?

You feel that 15 year olds have enough experience to be responsible for "reading the bottle" in other words, to assess the situation and monitor the side effects of the psychotropic medications on themselves but in comparision, a doctor, who makes $100,000/year and has gone to school for 25 years should be held completely non-accountable for what they get paid to prescribe to people? You've got to be kidding me.

Concerned Citizen,
I'm not saying this is Jane, or it is not her. My opinion on this topic is that Alyssa should and is going to be tried as an adult. Regardless of what Jane thinks. The human brain is not completely developed until the age of 25 years of age. However the capacity of right from wrong has already be established by the age of 7 years old. The majority of what a person will become is already learned by the age of 7 years old.
Concerned Citizen if you go to google look up children who kill. Most children kill for these reasons. Yes some do because they take Antidepressants; Although it is theory due to their already unline mental illness
WHY WOULD A CHILD KILL?

- For attention

- For a thrill

- To solve a perceived problem

- To show off in front of peers

- Lashing out due to abuse suffered

- Illness and mental retardation preventing the child from understanding his or her actions

- Psychopathic tendencies

- Redeem him/herself after an embarrassment or humiliation

I'm not trying to simplify this. It's just that I've already said my piece about the other aspects. I feel that bringing in information from other angles provides much better support for my opinion and a much better debate than repeating the same opinion over and over.

Also, I really hope you don't believe that doctors go to school for 25 years. While they have to continue with CPE's or continuing credits while maintaining their license, that's not really 'going to school.' However, I feel that doctors should be held responsible for things such as malpractice, but I also feel that we have an obligation to read up and understand what it is that we are taking and what procedures are being performed on our bodies. That should be common practice no matter how much you trust your physician. Lee complained that we as a nation always try to blame without seeking the truth. Could the truth in essence be that she was just a murderer and the meds may or may not have played a role in it?

I agree with you. My daughter knows right from wrong. She knows that killing is wrong. She has seen first hand how the death of an immediate family member affects a family.

So now I have seen everything. (another story) The nursing home should be held responsible for the strangulation, not the 98 year old woman and Alyssa should be tried as an adult. That woman is almost 10 times older than Alyssa. She should have a better understanding of right from wrong than anyone on the planet using your logic. Wa Wa Wa.. oh I have a mental illness, alzhiemers, dementia, I didn't know what I was doing Throw her in the slammer.

Sandy,
So, if a person's sense of right an wrong are fully developed by age 7, then why are children legally required to be supervised until age 11? Shouldn't they know everything they need to about proper behavior by 8 or 9 so as to be self - sufficient in the world? Actually, there is another stage of growth called individualization which occurs in adolecsence. Before that, the child is still very ego-centric and thinks that all things that happen are either directed towards them or from them. They can't see other factors causing the events in their lives. Also, a separation from their family/parents occurs at this time. I would imagine that would have been very difficult for Alyssa based on her family. The teenage years are much more important for thought development than people think. At 14 or 15, a girl is still a child.

A child at 14 or 15 still knows that murder is wrong.

Concerned Citizen,

That may be true. She may just be a murderer. But we will never have the opportunity to make that determination because that's not what happened. It doesn't exist. That's like saying, if I got into my car after 15 drinks and ran off a slippery road in an ice storm and killed people who were walking along the road would I be able to say "oh, it doesn't matter if I had a BAC of 2.5, I would have had the accident anyhow because of the weather conditions? Alcohol didn't have anything to do with the accident so it shouldn't be considered a factor. I don't think the cops would buy that.

I don't know how old a kid you're talking about (and please don't say, I don't like posting anything personal like my kid's ages and so forth on the internet, I think it's a bad idea b/c you never know who you are talking to) But a kid even at 11 I can't believe has an actual understanding of what death is.

Concerned Citizen,

Oh yeah, sorry, I was off by a few years:

Regular School = 12 years
College = 4 years
Medical School = 4 years
Residency = 2 years

Total = 22 years, not 25 (unless the specialize)

Concerned Citized,
I have worked in many fields over the years. To put myself through college I had a minor. I worked in the Probation Department with Youth Offenders. You would be suprised at how these kids survive. Alot of these children are born to fell. My opinion of course not all children. It is nature, nurture for these kids. The abuse is horrific. It is 24/7. It becomes a job just for these kids to stay alive. We can blame the system, schools, parents, abuse, medication, but when do we as a society stop blaming? Talking to these kids and I did alot of it. They know what they are doing is wrong. Most of these kids have been in and out of the system most of their lives. They know there is help out there if they want it.
Your question is Alyssa just a murderer? I think so. Some people are wired differently. To simplity it, because a women has a baby it does not make her a mother. Because you are a kid, does not mean you will behave like a child!

Give me a break.
Just as we speak, I am making a cake with my daughter (who is older than 7) SHE CAN'T EVEN MAKE A CAKE BY HERSELF how could I possibly expect her to understand such an serious, permanent, and adult concept such as murder!?!?!?!?

Jane,
I did not say a child by the age of 7 comprehends everything. A child knows by the age of 3 1/2 what death is. Depending on how the adult explains it to a child of that age. A child knows right from wrong. In E.C.E. a person has to put in so many hours to get their licence. I worked in a pre-school. A 3-4 little girl came to school and told the class," She killed her fish." I asked her, "how did she do that?" She said." she took her fish out of it's bowl and played with it." I asked her if she know that the fish could not breath outside of it's bowl? She replied," she knew that Curly could not play out of his bowl?

Sandy,
I'm sure that children understand a little bit, mostly they know words but concepts I don't think so..again my daughter just turned the heat up to 87 b/c we were cold?!? This is a person who can't use a thermostat and can't make her own food, and yet you think she has almost a fully developed sense of right and wrong? I just don't see it. Yes, she has said things about kids killing caterpillars and turtles getting run over and it makes her sad, but there is no way she totally understands. Now, Alyssa should understand a lot better and yes I'm sure she knows it's wrong but I firmly don't believe she has a full understanding of the permanent and far-reaching consequences on of her actions. How could you expect anyone but another parent to understand the pain that Elizabeth's mother feels? It's just not possible.

Sandy,
Don't you think that when you worked with the youth offenders that by the time these kids got to you, you were treating the symptoms, not the actual problem (which occurred years ago and is now ingrained behavior) Someone else taught them they should be abused, they are just continuing the job themselves now with self abusive/destructive behavior.

gina, concerned citizen(yeah you are a republican), sandy, and such idiots SHUT THE HELL UP. You're a bunch of daft simpletons who're part of the reason why this country continues to be so f'ed up.

AMEN Lee Bridgers THAT WAS B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L

Jane,
Ask your daughter this. If she were to put her finger in the running mixer, would it hurt her finger? Ask her if, she were to touch a burner on a stove would it burn her hand? The answer is Yes. Young children do know right from wrong. Just because they are not old enough to drink or vote legally does not mean they do not know right from wrong. The 4-5 boys that poored alcohol on Michael and light him on fire. Are you going to tell us that they did not know what they were doing?

Of course not. But the whole "trying kids as adults" and giving them adult sentences just boils down to the same thing that creates these kids in the first place which is the failure of adults to fulfill their responsibilities. In the case of trying kids as adults, the reason that it exists as an option is because the legal system (run by adults) has FAILED to make preparations (in how many decades is this now) for situations like this. They either have to go to juvie and get out at 21, which obviously, we don't want Alyssa roaming the streets unsupervised after 7 years in juvie. That's just common sense. But a long sentence, like life or 60 years of prison with no treatment (except probably more drugs to keep her compliant for their convenience.) There should be something in between. ADULTS have failed her in the beginning and they are failing her in the end. She fits the legal definition of a child. Therefore she is one. Same reason I'll get arrested if I walk around in the men's locker room. I don't fit the legal definition of a man.

Jane,
Alyssa commit an adult murder at 15 years old. She is going to be tried as an adult. Do we really want her put away with children that ran away from home, took drugs, stealing, didn't go to school, got into fights with other kids. She is to dangerous to be in with children younger then she is or her own age. When she is sentenced to prison, she will not just get looked up and the key thrown away. She will get the therapy she needs. At the same time the public will have one less murderer off the streets.
Just my opinion

Oh yes I did not think this was Jane!

Sandy,
I'm not trying to advertise being smarter than someone. I'm just very upset at the fact that people would hold her entirely responsible for this and even more disturbed that if we are finding out that these drugs are directly related to this that it be stopped before more tragedies occur. I would certainly hope that Elizabeth's family files a lawsuit against Eli Lilly, but I'm sure that they have already been contacted by attorneys and will do so. This is a horrible nightmare for this mother and the involved parties should be made a painful example of to prevent more in the future.

I bet the other grave was intended for herself.

I'm not trying to advertise being smarter than someone. This is one of the illiterate statements that have been posted under Jane's name. An individual that is intelligent does not have to prove it. Plesae try and restrain yourselves from this juvenile behavior.

"commit an adult murder at 15 years old"-> adult murder?? now this is unfounded. this kid is not an adult and should not be judged as one. where she is supposed to go "fails" and prison is not it, she needs to be placed somewhere where she will get the professional help and rehab she needs to be released eventually.

Sheeesh.

Sandy,
Most of the above comments are mine. I don't know if you are talking about these comments of another story, but yes, my name has been used by someone else numerous times (but not in this story, I don't think.) My opinions really are that she should not be given an adult sentence, (since the legal system does not care to make procedures for this type of thing, they really have no choice but to try her as an adult and send her to adult prison - juvie=not enough; adult sentence = too much. There is no in-between, probably because the legal system is too busy dealing with lawsuits brought upon them by people who ARE adults tasing the elderly. And that the precipitating reasons this happened are bad living arrangements with inadequate supervision, incompetent social worker therapists and doctors, and the mind altering effects of a drug she should not have been given (as the number one cause) Those are my opinons. (Actually they are facts)

I still don't think Alyssa should go to an adult jail, she might get beaten or killed, she's too young and small to go there.

Joey,
I agree with you but I don't see where they have a choice. There are only 2 options. If you read what was written about the juvenile centers, they don't want to send her there because there were 600 escapes in the last ten years. That's about 40 escapes per year. I don't see how they can even call it a "detention center" sounds more like a mall or library to me where people come and go as they please. If America is going to provide inadequate supervision and malpractice as the accepted healthcare to kids, then they are going to have to get on ball and put some procedures in place for when this happens because if these idiot people keep giving these drugs to kids then it's going to keep happening.

lae, Jane. Joey,
Your opinions are yours; as mine are mine.
Sorry to inform you Lae. Alyssa's crime in the eye's of society, said "that the murder she commmited was an adult crime." At fifteen children are planing parties, how they are going to sneek out of the house and drink a beer. Their not plainning to kill a 9 year old child. That is the difference between a childs thinking and an adult. She is going to spend 65 years in prison with out possibility of parole. If she were to be tried as a juvenile I will recommend to the state, she move right next door to you and your family.
Joey, Should Alyssa suffer the pain that was inflected on elisabeth at the hands of her murder "Alyssa" This question should be asked of Elisabeth's Family? Alyssa will have the saftety of the prison, due to her age. She will go into holding, Solitary confinement. She will also get Therapy and the proper medication that she needs.
Jane, with our economy such as it is, there is no money left. Millions of dollars are spent on criminals each year. Medical, Dental, food, clothing, heat, air cond. and so on. Their court trails and appeals alone are staggering all back on the taxpayers. There should not be a middle ground for the Alyssa's in this world. They are criminals. If you are talking about HOUSING CRIMINALS UNDER THE AGE OF 18 YEARS OLD in seperate prisons for their own protection, that's great. That is pretty much how it works now. To build a seperate building all together, that maybe in the works. These 18 year old hard criminals will still kill one another. They will still try and kill the staff. The bottom line is the type of CRIME THAT IS COMMITED. NOT THE AGE OF THE PERSON. You can not blame medication there is no scientific proof to support that a child that took another persons life would or would not have commited murder while taking their medication. The RX indicates the prescribed dose and follow ups with their doctor. Not to follow up with the hardware store for a shovel

There are millions of documents and thousands of cases showing that these drugs do cause these behaviors. The package insert on Effexor contains the side effect "homocidal ideation."

Sandy,
You seemt to base the fact that she thinks like an adult on the horrible adult behavior she did. Given the facts, it looks like the whole situation happened BECAUSE SHE IS NOT AN ADULT. When you get your kids their shots, does the doctor get the kid's signature on the sife effects or yours? If you took your kid to the doctor and he prescribed him ritilin, who would the doctor discuss this with, you or your kid? Alyssa was probably the only one in the whole situation who WAS NOT involved in making decisions about her mental health treatment. It's not required to involve her in it because she is a minor. No one even legally has to let her know what kind of drug she is ingesting. So expecting her to read the bottle and monitor herself for side effects isn't even close to reality. I bet they are not discussing who the other grave was for because they are going to do an insanity defense. Most likely it was for herself (the police found her based on her writings, if the dipshit social worker would have done her job and got a hold of them BEFORE this happened, then it wouldn't have happened, I highly doubt that Alyssa was visited in person every single day by a state paid social worker) She most likely was planning on killing herself and wanted to see what it would be like, thus she choose someone silimar to her (a girl) and not her brothers.

Jane, at 15, Alyssa would have been able to get birth control, the morning after pill, and have an abortion without even informing her parents or guardians. So if 15 year olds can make the decisions to do those things and take those medications, why do you think they aren't old enough to be able to understand antipsychotic drugs? I'm completely for the confidentiality that teenageers are able to have in the medical field. I think it's a very good thing. However, we can't just pick and choose what medications we think they are old enough to understand the consequences.

To EVE (who says inNov. that she has been working with the mentallly ill for 25 years and is a therapist) So you said that she has a 'DISORDER' and disorders can not be fixed by therapy,medication, or hospitalization) YOU MAKE ME SICK.. you are the type of person who the medical field says to me who take care of my son and make him better.Oh by the way he has been diagnosed with "schizoaffective disorder" A disorder. You sound like a mean, uncompassionate person, and what you said proves more to me about the treatment you people put on the "mentally Ill". so why the hell do you people give them theapy , meds. and hospitalization. why do you even work with them.. im just so disgusted right now.

michelle,
Don't waste your time with that one. There is no way those statements came from an actual mental health therapist. It's common knowledge that this wonderful new thing, invented by Freud in the 1900's called psychotherapy will cure or improve numerous personality disorders like OCD. Notice how she doesn't NAME the personality disorder, which would most likely be "anti-social personality disorder." Because she doesn't know any. And common knowledge that a person 15 is not "way past the age of accountability" Do you think she is going to treat mentally ill 13, 14 15 yr-olds without consulting their parents and getting the proper signatures from the parents? Who pays the bills. A mental health practitioner advocating putting a person 15 years old with a personality disorder to death?!!?

If she is in the mental health field, she is a pet psychologist.

Jane, even if the parents are paying the medical bills, at the age of at least 14 and younger in some states, parents are only allowed to know what the actual child tells them. People in the medical field are bound by confidentiality and if the teenage patient doesn't want their parents to know what is going on, then the doctors are not allowed to tell. And yes, the parents would still be liable for the medical bills. That is the law.

Also, in the psychological field, a lot of Freudian treatments and theories have been disregarded as new and upcoming treatments have proven to be much better.

Concerned Citizen,
YOU ARE CORRECT!!! The parents are legally responsible to pay the bills because they can't take legal action against the kid for unpaid medical bills.......BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AN ADULT!!!!

What are these new and upcoming treatments? Abilify, Zoloft? Lexapro for babies?

My point was that since they are able to undergo treatment for many things without parental approval or guidance, then why is it that you think they aren't old enough to understand the treatment they are under? At what age should these children begin to understand any medication they are on?

Not every therapist prescribes medicine and not every therapist believes that medication is the only treatment. There are also plenty of treatments besides Zoloft. I am not a professional in this field, I just know that Frued, while considered very important to the role of psychology, has been proven incorrect in many of his theories and treatment plans. I don't expect you to take my word for it, but I'm sure you have google.

No, actually I am interested in what the "new therapies" you speak of.

So, you expect her not to be held accountable for a very simple behavior like getting a service and paying the bill but to have complete knowledge of the healthcare system in America which currently confounding hundreds of people three times her age in congress at this very moment?

Don't we crawl before we walk?

You've got it backwards. You're looking at an RESULT and taking (one of many possibilities) a hard stance on the CAUSE. It should be the other way around, a known CAUSE will produce one of several possible outcomes. If you try to find the cause by looking at the result, you're looking at infinite possibilities.

I didn't say she should be responsible for understanding the whole healthcare system. Who can? All I was trying to say is that if a teenager is able to understand the side-effects of birth control then why is it that they aren't able to understand the side effects of drugs such as Zoloft? To be a proponent of teenagers being able to have abortions or undergo family planning through the free clinics but say they aren't responsible enough to understand an anti-psychotic drug are hypcritical. The reson that the parents are responsible for the bills is because the child is usually covered under the parents' insurance. The parents can opt out of having their child covered by their insurance. And yes, medical bills do fall under the child's name. I have seen many people that have had medical bills in thousands of dollars have their credit ruined because they couldn't pay them. A friend has MD and his credit was ruined well before he turned 20 because of medical bills from his teenage years. So in the end, it is the child that pays the ultimate price of these bills, especially if they aren't ever paid.

As far as the cause and effect that you speak of, I believe that this could have been prevented, at least to some extent, but it should have been addressed a long time ago. She should have seeked help on her own if no one else was willing to help her. Parents or guardians should have been watching for signs. I don't think doctors could have been held completely responsible, because as I have said before, not every patient is honest with their physician. On top of that, some people seek help from several doctors and may confuse which doctor knows what and the doctors may not be aware of everything.

We're talking about someone who is 15, not 18 (who could have their credit ruined because they are legally allowed to work and enter into a contract.) They would never put a 15 year old down as responsble for a bill because they could never file a judgement or garnishment on this person because they are too young. Alyssa did not go around visiting doctors like Michael Jackson, another poster child for anti-depressants and upstanding doctors, her mental health treatment was forced upon her thru her previous sucide attempt.

Do you believe that children of 15 are old enough to understand the consequences of birth control, abortion, and planning a family if they choose to keep the baby if they become pregnant?

Jane,
Lets take it a step further. Working with Youth Offenders, not so long ago. I worked with Mental Health. You are right there are study's that show in a small percentage of minors and in some cases up to 25 years old Psychotic behavior can occur. Medication that is prescribed by a licensed psychiatrist the patient is always monitored while on the medication. At the beginning of taking the medication the patient see's the doctor once a week. Depending on the patients mental stability, the patient maybe be seen once every two weeks. Children that are properly diagnosed with a mental illness needs medication and therapy. If Alyssa was completely out of her mind and was proven she incapable of knowing what she was doing was wrong the day she murdered Elisabeth. Then I would agree with you. She should not go to prison. She should go to a psychiatric Hospital for the rest of her life. Alyssa was not crazy at the time of the murder she planed days in advanced. Therefore it does not make her crazy. Regardless to the alleged theroy of Medication Alyssa was or was not taking?

Sandy,
That scenario is fine for the 48% of Americans whom receive their psych meds from psychiatrists, but what about the 52% whom are prescribed the med by Primary care physicians? And you are saying that a psychotic person is incapable of pre-meditation? I didn't know that those 2 conditions were proved to be mutually exclusive.

Jane,
Your percentage is a little high for a general physicians that are giving out meds. However with children it is slightly different. Children are evaluated, screened, tested, most of the time the schools will refer the children to the physicians after their teachers have,observing their behavior. Jane you are making it sound as if Doctor's are on Street Corners on back alleys giving out Antidepressants to children. I do have a concern with what you said to Michelle. My oldest brother is paranoid schizophrenic. His IQ was test at the age of 13 years old when he first started showing signs he was sick. His IQ was alarmingly high(I was young I think his was around 138-14?. I do know that he had his B.A., by the time he was 20 years old. Bob was on Medication since he was 13 years old. Without his medication. He has tried to kill my Mother more then once. he stabbed our family dog to death, he was on drugs, he stayed up for days, I can't tell you how many times he has been in the Hospital. He was a wonderful writer and poet. However when Bob stopped taking his Meds. He wrote about ugly things, mostly dying or death. I remember he wrote," I don't believe in God, But I know when I'm dying my last words will be asking for him." There are no cures for Mental Illness. A person may have OCD, PTSS, I guess more of an emotional illness. Medication is no easy quick fix. And it is not for everyone. I would hate to think what this world would be like without Medications for the Mentally Ill.
Jane, I hope you read this: It will explain everything to you!

On September 6, 2007, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that the suicide rate in American adolescents, (especially girls, 10 to 24 years old), increased 8% (2003 to 2004), the largest jump in 15 years,[106] to 4,599 suicides in Americans ages 10 to 24 in 2004, from 4,232 in 2003, giving a suicide rate of 7.32 per 100,000 people that age. The rate previously dropped to 6.78 per 100,000 in 2003 from 9.48 per 100,000 in 1990. The findings reinforced the fact that antidepressant drugs reduce suicide risk. Psychiatrists found that the increase is due to the decline in prescriptions of antidepressant drugs like Prozac to young people since 2003, leaving more cases of serious depression untreated. In a December 2006 study, The American Journal of Psychiatry said that a decrease in antidepressant prescriptions to minors of just a few percentage points coincided with a 14 percent increase in suicides in the United States; in the Netherlands, the suicide rate was 50% up after a fall in antidepressant prescriptions
/

Sandy,
I am in now way against drugs that help schizophrenics. But that is a real disease that has been successfully treated with drugs for over 50 years. Those people usually see the correct doctor, a psychiatrist and the main problem with them, I hear over and over, is that (I'm sure you know) they usually stop taking their medications and then the symptoms come back. It's hard to get them to stay on the medication.

I'm talking about the 25 million people in the US who are taking the big money makers, Lexapro, Abilify, Zoloft, Effexor, etc. You can find statistics that state SSRI's cause suicide and ones that state the prevent it. I don't have a problem with these drugs, it's the way they are dispensed an advertised to the public. The reason why teenage suicide may have increased after the black box warnings could be that less people were seeking help for their kids when they should have been seeking help anyhow and weighing different options, such as counseling. Or it could have been from withdrawing the kids from the medications. It could be some other entirely different cause, family stressors, (divorce rate, economy,) We don't know for sure and the reports never pinpoint a reason because they can't.

These drugs are designed for Major Depression in adults and tested that way (for a wopping 8 weeks in clinical trials) And then to give them to teens for years? There isn't even a clinical trial like that, never has been. They are basically giving a treatment to these people that is untested. These drugs should be given for very sort term use, since Major Depression is an EVENT not a chronic condition. Find a clinical trial for one of them for Dysthimia, there isn't one.

Sandy,
And I'm so sorry about your dog. That is sad.

Jane,
If you read above one of the problems with antidepressants is that they are not being prescribed to children. Therefore; children are not being treated for depression. Not sure about the dog.
Happy New Year.

Sandy,
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

When you say that it's a problem that antidepressants aren't being prescribed to kids, so they aren't being treated for depression you're implying that the only thing that should be done for their treatment is DRUGS. (I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but a lot of people think that way.) Psych drugs for children should be the LAST line of treatment after counseling, diet, sleep, & excercize considerations, and family therapy. Because, common sense should tell us, if a little kid shows signs of depression, where is that coming from? Some type of family dysfunction most likely. These drugs weren't developed for little kids and the only one which is actually approved for kids is Prozac (now Lexapro for teens)

You said your brother stabbed your family dog to death in the post I was replying to. I'm sure it was a long time ago, but still a terrible thing to have to go through.

Jane,
I am sorry. At first I thought someone was trying to be funny. My statement was focusing on my bothers mental illness. I had blogged earlier that Teachers, Parents, kids in trouble with the law, are starting to show signs there is something wrong. More in some children then others. I wish that children that display troubled behavior early on could get counseling. That may help. What I am saying and I don't want to speak for anyone else. Antidepressants,Anti-psychotic, Mood Stabilizers if they are needed should be prescribed and taken; regardless of tanyones age. Alyssa is more then depressed. She murdered another human being. It comes down to the Law. I think, only my opinion is that Alyssa is very sick. I would think that Medication, Therapy and School would probably help her. Jane, If Alyssa gets the proper treatment for her mental illness and she is found stable. The Law will turn around and have her serve her time in Prison. This is a No win situation. My opinion. Her parents should be serving as much time as she does. They created this monster. Like you said ,she is a minor. Why not make her parents responsible for her. If the Grandparents had guardianship of her at an early age they should be right along with her also. If you look at the percentage of how many people that are homeless are mentally ill it is staggering. If Alyssa were to be treated and released back into society. What then? How will she get a job with murder on her record? How will she pay for her medical treatment? Will she end up in the system anyway or will she just be another homeless person on the streets? What future does she have? She has not parents to turn to.

OMG are you people nuts? Lee Bridgers he went on and on and on. What did he say? Jane it's ok go back a cake. sandy they don't like you stop making people look bad. j get a life and go smoke alittle. this guy down here I don't want what he has been taking. gina, concerned citizen(yeah you are a republican), sandy, and such idiots SHUT THE HELL UP. You're a bunch of daft simpletons who're part of the reason why this country continues to be so f'ed up. I just got off work so I got on my computer on a friday night. lol This shit is all over the place. The crazy girl killed someone. I don't want her going to school with my little sister. Hell No.

Sandy,
The Dr. is in.

The notion that murder is an "adult crime" seems very subjective in my opinion, most adults don't commit murder either I'm don't see how it holds. When a teenager commits murder it is a teenage murder, End of story. They are not 5 year olds but when it comes to commiting crimes they are like that, there is no justification to lable their acts as adult.

--> Given the facts, it looks like the whole situation happened BECAUSE SHE IS NOT AN ADULT.

--> To believe that a 15 year old girl should be tried as an adult based on the type of crime they committed is very illogical and reminicsent of thinking of what constitutes adulthood from back in cave man times.

Wow, Jane very true you make a lots of sense.

The type of judgment, labeling these poeple as criminals, is just coercing them to reoffend.

Teens are drinking beer, adults are commiting murder, and senior citizens must be high-jacking planes and flying them into buildings, oh come on.
Teens who commit serious crimes should obviously do more time than a young person who's commited minor crimes. From my expeirance most kids get away with don't get arrested for stealing, drinking, running away, getting into fights, and many from stable backgrounds mature out of this behaviour on their own.
I'm not going to lie, as an adolescent I shoplifted I got caught and got away with only a warning. That was really all the realization that needed to know I was wrong. That's what people don't understand about adolescent dvelopment sometimes all they need is a wake-up call, they have a great potential to mature and reform themselves.
13-17 year olds are the new 18-21 year olds. This type of treatment is really hypocritical in my opnion. I do not think this girl should go to prison, since she is mentally ill I think she should be sent somewhere she can be treated.

Iae,

I agree with you 100% on the labeling. The more attention people get for negative behaviors, the more they are reinforced. To be in this situation as a teen, just developing and identity is a very bad place to be for any possibility of not re-offending. Unless the actual reasons that Alyssa did this (& I'm really tying them to over drugging and the obssession with the cutting behavior, which is a physically addictive behavior and in no way is meant to be self-injurious, although it looks that way, it's a chemical addiction.) She will label herself a life-time criminal and continue to kill while in prison. (I just realized that the reason they try these kids as adults is that if they try them as juveniles, the sentence ends when they are 21, no matter what it is) So in this case probably the only fair thing to do if even possible is commit her to a mental institution for whatever time they would have sent her to prison and if during that time she becomes somewhat normal, then send her to prison. Unless some digging really goes on, Alyssa herself will be nothing but a lifelong victim too.

Alyssa should be released with a name change sometime when she's around 21 years old, 5 or 6 years will be a very long time for her. I'm sure she'll be a different person by then, she is very smart, smart enough to pull herself together, It's such a pity that this case has gotten so much publicity because it makes it hard to get her released when she's still young.

We can only hope...she has very good attorneys..

Sandy,
Come join the masquerade party. Mardi Gras is coming up.

Alyssa is young and dangerous. The girl is mentally ill. She is not going to find a cure in 5-6 yrs. You can't cure mental illness. My opinion doesn't mean much neither does anyone else s. Alyssa is being tried as a adult. They say 65 yrs in prison she can't kill anymore 9 yr little girls there.

Kim,
You are replying to a bogus comment.

This is a terrible thing that has happened. Although I feel sorry for Alyssa's grandmother, (she was raised with her grandmother because her mother is an alcoholic and her father is incarcerated), I cannot feel sorry for Alyssa. I don't think she could ever change even if she decided she wanted to try to change. And even worse, I fear that the only reason Alyssa would try to change would only be for a long enough period of time so that she could get out of jail and do it again. I don't believe she really tried to kill herself, she knows how to do it to make it very permanent, obviously, and instead she did things she knew she would survive. Scraping your fingernails against your arms does not kill you. But it does get you ATTENTION, which seems to be what she wants. ATTENTION. I watched the video of her in the courtroom and there is a point where Alyssa looks up and grins. She quickly hides it, but she is sitting there, accused of MURDERING a small nine yr old girl who could not defend herself against this, this MONSTER, and she GRINS. It is a sh!t eating grin that shows her true charector. It only lasts a few seconds and than she seems to regain composure and hides it fast, but it IS there. That's scary, really scary. What kind of a person would smile while listening to the horrid thing she has done? Not a person, someone who has become something else, morphed into something completely evil. I don't think she is crazy, I think she is COMPLETELY mean, nasty, cold, cruel and calculating. No matter what her age, she has turned into a monster.

rocki (and also Kim); it was a real comment. There have been other young killers that have been released to live quiet and stable lives.
catsy101; I've seen the video too and I never saw anything that looked like a grin, unless there's a version I haven't seen yet? She kinda looked like she didn't want to be there. She just wanted to hide her face under her hair.

Joey as bad as you feel for her. She is sick. More evil. Even if she goes to detention until 25-25. She would never be released into the public after killing that little girl. It will never happen. The courts have desided what is going to happen to her. For us to say she should not go to prison because she is under 18. She is a child don't matter. This subject is over for you and her. She's going to prison for a long time.

karen,
"and such idiots SHUT THE HELL UP. You're a bunch of daft simpletons"..........you are no longer with us "karen" and you don't exist.

Joey,
I'm sorry, there are so many imposter comments, I don't know what is what.

Kim,
That is ridiculous to call her "evil" The main reason she was probably able to carry that out is because she has been steadily given a controversial psychotropic drug which was tested by giving it to adults for 8 weeks when she's a kid and has been given it for 2 years. It doesn't matter if it's approved for kids or not, it's never been tested for more than 8 weeks for "Major Depressive Disorder" which is an "event" not a chronic disease. Would you find it so hard to believe that she wasn't in control and did this if they had found meth and crack in her system? Of course not, same thing.

Ha,
Look at the top of the screen advertising "This emotional Life"on PBS. I wonder how many drugs they are going to push on that show. Ever hear Dr. Phil have a show about all the people who murdered someone while they were on anti-dpressants? Hell no, he won't touch that. He'll sit there and pick on bankrupt people and tell 'em not to buy coffee on the way to work. That's some real state of the art advice.

catsy101,

Yes, you are exactly right. That's what those types of drugs do to people and you can be assured that she is getting even more medication while she's in jail than what she origionally had. SSRI's are known to have a numbing effect on emotions so it is no wonder why she can sit there and hear about what she has done and grin. Happens all the time.

Joey --- Watch the whole video of her in the courtroom very carefully from beginning to end. There is a small part where she looks up and she has a slight grin on her face, quickly very quickly she pulls her cheeks in almost like she is biting the inside of her mouth just a bit, to you can see she is trying to change her expression very quickly, and the grin only lasts a couple of seconds. But it's there. If you go and watch the Nancy Grace coverage of it, you can see it most prominent there.

Anyway, yes she is grinning. And I don't blame the medication for it. If you are telling me that the medication causes her to have no emotion to the cruel thing she had done, why does she grin? Grinning means she is pleased with what they are talking about. It seems to make her happy that she did this to the poor little girl. If the meds make her have no emotions at all, why is she showing happiness at what she has done? She should be indifferent in your theory, and the grin I saw in that video of her, that grin proves your theory wrong. Also, she seems very happy in the video on youtube as she shocks herself and gets her brothers to do the same. She laughs evilly as her brothers grab the fence at her insistance, "You HAVE to. I did it.". She obviously enjoys watching people get hurt, especially those around her. She seriously needs to stay in jail for life. I have three small children, and if she ever got out of jail and moved near me, I would have a huge problem with it. Would you want Alyssa around your children, your younger siblings, your family or pets? I sure wouldn't. I think she enjoys this stuff too much to ever stop.

I don't have time to look it up for you now. The depression and suicide for young girls has gone up in the last few years. Because of uninformed people such as yourself about treating the mentally ill. (that includes depression) I really don't know what point you want people to understand. How about this. Alyssa may or may not be mentally ill. The hard CORE FACT is she's going to Prison. If you have any proof that she was forced to strangle, stab and cut Elizabeth's throat and dig her grave a week before she killed her then I will listen. Alyssa will be able to think about her future and Elizabeth's future for a long time.

Kim,
I never said that she was "forced" to do this. Anti-depressants, especially when dispensed for uses they are not designed for, open doors in some people's behaviors and conception of what is acceptable that would otherwise remain closed. Look until 2020, you will never find a study with results posted which shows the effects of 2 years exposure to Prozac in a 13-15 year old. Doesn't exist.

catsy101,
Yes, she is pleased with herself. This is because the only important thing at the moment is getting attention. SSRI's numb the emotions towards others and the consequences of one's actions. If she is ever allowed to sober up, she will be horrified.

Kim,
I am highly informed about these drugs, as a 27 year victim of their effects on a parent of mine who was "treated " for depression for three years with over a dozen different psych meds and finally walked in front of a train and killed themselves. If you think that we or the FDA actually knows their effects....well if you look up Bolar Pharmacueticals, you will find that they were able to give the FDA bogus samples of a supposed generic version of Dyazide. Instead, they gave them the actual drug they were supposed to be making a generic version of. The FDA didn't know or didn't care to know what they had until people starting dying. The sad fact is that this drug is composed of 7 molecules. This is 9th grade chemistry and the FDA can't manage that. People certainly wouldn't be surprised in the least if she had committed this murder while on meth or crack but they assume that prescription drugs are "good"; We can see the horrible effects of street drugs and of course all they do is line the pockets of criminals...well...

So don't bother looking anything up to enlighten me about treatments for depression and how I am mis-informed because I am not on the drug band wagon. I have had an extensive life-long lesson on them.

Rocki, you only see what you want to. That makes you blind. I'm sorry to hear about your life long lessons that apparently were bad. There are millions of young people that are benefiting from medication. You certainly do not know as much as you have told yourself you do. Check out who the majority of the homeless are. Mentally ill. There is no money to treat or pay for their medication so they are forced on the streets. Now that's SAD. Your so upset about Alyssa and how she does not have a future. You and a few of the Alyssa lovers have not mentioned Elisabeth. How wrong is that?

Kim,
I have never lost sight of the fact that Elizabeth was the true victim in all this. What's done is done. In our present society, there is no hope for Alyssa. I only said that she was not the lone perpetrator in this complex situation and that she committed murder while on mind-altering drugs. Those are actual facts. I suggest you hit me with some instead of blogging subjective statements I could find on Pfizer advertisements like "helping millions of young people" and suggesting that the mentally ill population of homeless people (that is common knowledge are schizophrenic or otherwise psychotic and are the actual people in need of medication) are in need of anti-depressants. I find your response to my personal tragic family member's death calling me blind, callous to others and would suspect that you yourself are taking these medications and therefore sticking up for them. I never said that all people who take them commit crimes are taking them, most of course don't, but many bizarre murders and suicides have included people who are taking them.

Rocki, you have done exactly that. Alyssa's crime is contribited from antidepressants over two years and ultamenly caused her to murdering that little girl. NO what's done is not done. You should educate yourself and research adolescence depression. Researched by the psychiatric board of psychiatry. What do you think Mental illness is? Depression is separate from schizophrenic's? I'm not suggesting I'm telling you, the majority of the homeless people are MENTALLY ILL. I don't know about your families death or your crusade to attack people over this issue. Perhaps you may want to seek professional help for yourself.

Just suggesting

Kim,
I'm not disagreeing with you. It's accepted knowledge that the majority of homeless are mentally ill. What you are "telling" me is that the vast majority of homeless are teenagers and that anti-depressants cure alcoholism, depression, and mental retardation (which would be the main mental illnesses/or conditions of the homeless, not depression.) No one knows if Alyssa would have committed the murder regardless of Prozac because that is not what happened. No person will ever know that, it's not possible. Facts: 1.) teenager given Prozac over a 2 year period 2.) teenager commits murder to see what it feels like. Those are facts.

Rocki, NO I have never said that nor have I ever implied it These are your words, not mine.
"vast majority of homeless are teenagers and that anti-depressants cure alcoholism, depression, and mental retardation (which would be the main mental illnesses/" I Have no Idea where you are coming from with this or how you came to this conclusion? It baffles me. I do not recall ever hearing for sure that she was even taking antidepressants? You can beat this up now until Alyssa gets out of Prison in 65yrs or you can just except the fact that she knew in advance she was going to murder that little girl. Depressed or Not

They so are your words:

"There are millions of young people that are benefiting from medication. Check out who the majority of the homeless are. Mentally ill. There is no money to treat or pay for their medication so they are forced on the streets."

So what kind of mental illnesses do the homeless have?!?!? In your expert opinion? Depression? I'm talking about giving kids anti-depressants, NOTHING ELSE, no homeless schizophrenics, alcoholics, etc. You brought up the homeless.

The fact that she was taking Prozac since 2007 is right in the story above!?!?

"In court testimony yesterday, social service workers say the 15-year-old has a history of cutting herself and has been on Prozac since 2007."

Rocki, NO Rocki you read my comment incorrectly. First statement: " There are millions of young people that are benefiting from medication. Second statemnet: Check out who the majority of the homeless are." Those are two different subjects that I was addressing to you in response to your comments. You said The sad fact is that this drug is composed of 7 molecules.(People and drugs)First statement above: You debated with me about homeless people and how many were mentally ill. Second statement above: Where you are pulling these other things out of I sure don't know. You are all over the place.
Where do you get this stuff from? You really should read over what has been said before you make another comment to get everything correct!

What you are "telling" me is that the vast majority of homeless are teenagers and that anti-depressants cure alcoholism, depression, and mental retardation (which would be the main mental illnesses/or conditions of the homeless, not depression.)

Kim,
You are the one adding stuff. I am exclusively talking about teens and other people being given anti-depressants (and crap like abilify they add to it.) I was never talking about any other mental illnesses, only depression. I wasn't talking about the homeless mentally ill, they are not depressed, they have other problems and certainly should get treatment (and a place to live) So when I am only talking about anti-depressants and you start talking about the homeless, of course I'm going to ask you if you think that population's mental illnesses can be cured with anti-depressants (which would be schizophrenia, alcoholism, mental retardation) You never say which mental illnesses you think the homeless suffer from, you just keep telling me how wrong I am.

Rocki, This is what I'm TALKING about. “ To clarify the homeless. “Yes a large percentage of these people are mental ill. That was one of the points that was brought up. And if I might add you disagreed with. When in bought, check it out. (google engine) Okay with that said, Alyssa is more than DEPRESSED. I do believe that reports indicated she was not on medication. Yes in some people young and old people antidepressants can have side effects. I have not said “how wrong you are.” You do get a tad bit excited over ANTIDEPRESSANTS. You and your family had a bad experience with the drugs. There is so much good that comes from tanitdepressants out way the bad. It does not matter to me if you agree or disagree with me or anyone else. This story has an ending. One ending of a life. And another ending of one that distoryed her own life

Just wait until you develop unwanted side effects and try to stop taking them. You will get an education at that time.

catsy101, I had another look and I still can't see her smiling, she does bite the inside of her lips, however if she did smile it's not on the version I watched, maybe it was just the camera angle.

I did find this comment under the courtroom video I watched;
"I was at that court hearing...i was her friend...i think her? seeing me and our other 2 friends also hurt
her allot because she knew we knew and that should and was embaressing...she wasnt emotionless...i
know her faciel expressions well and that was sadness and embaressment not emotionless..."

rocki - yes getting of antidepressants is horrible, they say they are not addictive but that's a lie, too many people have bad withdrawl symtoms. That's another reason why I don't trust those pharmacuetical companies.

No they don't say it's not addicting. The withdraws are horrible, a person dose not come off of antidepressants without the help of a medical professional. The disease it's self is horrible. Untreated studies have shown that people commit suicide, violent acts towards others, sleeping for days on end, not sleeping at all, rage, hallucinations and the list keeps on going. This is why we have psychiatrist. I will stick to the professionals as well as the millions of other people in this world do. You can come up with a study against Meds. And there are thousands for Meds. The number one disease with Alcoholics is depression. Eating disorders are a form of depression. Cutting is a form of depression. OCD, PTSS are all forms of depression. What don't treat these diseases.? 1 out of 10,000 may commit suicide? Check out how many people commit suicide each year without Medication, due to some of these diseases

Kim,
Wow, thanks for enlightening me. That must be some really new information. Where can I find the information showing that OCD is a form of depression? I've never heard of that.

Okay Rocki I could give a shit less if you get on the band wagon or not for antidepressants. Because you have never heard of it, than it doesn't exist. I have OCD, and was diagnosed with it 10 years ago. I can't leave my house without checking everything 6 times. Most of the time I have got to go back to the house to check it again, it takes hours just to go to the store. I also clean my house all day and most of the night, I don't like germs. I take antidepressants for my OCD a form of depression. If you want me to go on I can discuss with you eating disorders and alcoholism. There a form of depression to.

Kim,
All these things are not depression. They are their own diseases. They use some anti-depressants for anxiety disorders like OCD (which I had also) and they seem to help. If antidepressants help you with that, that's fine. I just have a problem with giving these kids all this stuff and sitting back and seeing what happens because these drugs do have bad side effects on SOME people, but they should be watched way more than they are because when they have side effect like in Alyssa's case, it is horrendous. Yes, most people can tolerate them and if they're not right they tend to just stop taking them. I myself had a terrible ordeal with being given numerous drugs and anti-depressants and it almost ruined my life. They drove me insane. I got worse and worse over a period of 9 mos., shaky, anxious, my blood pressure went from 120/80 to 145/110. They started to work the opposite way. Once I stopped taking them, I was relaxed and fine. But I had to take that upon myself to figure out. I went to over 5 places to get more help and the doctor who prescribed them to me basically abandoned me after seeing the results and I had to withdraw myself from them. Because no matter how many of these "professionals" I saw, they could not make the connection that my awful side effects were contained all in the time period of my taking this drug. They never put 2 and 2 together. Finally, I saw a therapist and started getting at the root of the problems (which is my father's suicide) and my OCD is gone at this point. (when I say gone, I mean today, under stress, I'm 100% sure it would come back.) That actually worked, drugs didn't but that's me. But don't tell me they don't have powerful and horrible side effects to the extent of driving some people nuts, because they do. They made me high and delusional. I did the exact behavior you're talking about, checking checking checking. Now, I don't and it's not due to an anti-depressant. Some people just can't tolerate those and there has to be other treatments for them. The treatments have to be given equal weight based on what works for each person. Not based on what's cheaper and easier, because cheaper and easier creates Alyssa's.

Kim,
Another thing is that these behaviors caused by depression, alcoholism, eating disorders. It's acutally the other way around (or maybe a little of both) They mess up the brains cheimcals. If you research eating disorders (bulimia) you will find that causes endorphins to be released and creates a physically addictive cycle which for obvious reasons would cause the sufferer to be depressed (b/c they no longer have control) This phsyically addictive cycle is also found in alcoholism and cutting. Same thing-endorphins are released in the brain. Eating disorders are highly associated with "black and white" thinking. This was the main thing I had to deal with b/c once started it becomes very ingrained and cyclical. I never knew there was a whole different relaxing imperfect world I could live in until now and what it took was changing incorrect thinking patterns. Drugs could never fix that.

To expect Alyssa to be experienced enough to know what is normal for her (I only was able to turn the situation around because I have 30 years experience living in my body and mind so I know what is normal for me) is impossible. She never had a chance.

Rocki, Get yourself educated about these diseases. You don't know what your talking about. Like I said 1 out of 10,000 may experience suicide along with other side effects. DO NOT TELL ME ANYTHING ABOUT BULIMIA, ANOREXIA AND ALOCHOLISM. I CAN WRITE THE BOOK ON THEM. Yes they are a form of depression.

Kim,
I can see you will not be wrong. Enjoy your DUI's.

Rocki, The cases are so few and far in between for side effects due to people taking antidepressants. You and your father could not take them so the entire psychiatric world doesn't know what they are talking about. Alyssa was not on antidepressants. I read what you said to saywhat, how sick is that.You sound like that poser igger

Well, this girl cuts herself, attempted suicide multiple times, struggles with depression, dad's in jail on assault convictions, mom's a drug abuser, abandoned by parents and spoiled by grandparents. SOUNDS LIKE AN EARLY CASE OF BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER. The cause of this crime is this girl's impaired mental condition coupled with the controversial psych meds!

There is no such thing as sociopaths or psychopaths, these such terms were invented by slanderous conservative-republican-scientists (who needs to be charged with libel) to infinitely dehumanize these so-called people labled as such, as retaliation. So-called sociopaths and psychopaths are just humans and deserve to be treated as such, they don't ask to be born and are a creation over what they have no control over. They have interests and enjoy life like any of the next persons, they are capabale of living a good, honest and normal life, capable of making moral and sincere choices, capable of learning love and compassion and can benefit from guidance and counselling. Those nasty words sociopath and psychopath needs to be removed from the dictionary!

Of course people with mental illnesses can be rehabilitated!

dg and Rocki

According to DSM,IV,TR, the diagnostic manual of mental illness. Antisocial Personality, or Psychopath's, is a specific form of psychological personality disorder. Trats are: Lack of empathy, difficulty controlling impulses, and manipulative behaviors Psychopaths are charming, and focuse on their cold, calculating efforts of self-gratification, at the expense of others. Psychopaths are continue a pattern of recidivism. There needs to be a way of reliably identifying the criminal psychopath. So that Hr/She (ALYSSA)can be differentiated from other violent offenders.

No successful treatment or rehabilitation has worked for psychapathes and antisocial personality disorder.

There are programs designed to rehabilitate psychopaths. Dr. Hare, states" no program has yet proven to be effective. Psychopaths hone their manipulative skills." His recommends," we all should educate ourselves about psychopaths in order to better recognize and avoid these predators. "

dg & Karen,
Thank you, arguing with someone who continuously states that OCD is a form of depression is going giving me a disorder. If OCD and alcoholism are forms of depression, then why does AA exist and rehab's, why don't they give all these people anti-depressants. With that type of scenario, the DSM IV would only have 2 disorders, Depression (with most of the anxiety disorders under this) and psychosis. ALYSSA WAS ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS, it's right in the story above, she was on Prozac since 2007. I suspect that she knows she is wrong but is not going to admit it at this point. Just to clarify, (and I'm not arguing with you) I think that a psychopath is a person who exhibits a specific set of traits, a lot of them that of anti-social personality disorder, but not all people with anti-social personality disorder are psycho-paths. And I thought that therapy could help people with anti-social personality disorder, because it's usually a result of being abused as a child.

Rocki, It is clear that you're statements are purely your feelings and not fact or educated information. The information is on the website, you can ask your psychiatrist? From your behavior I'm sure you have one. If you don't, you need one. As a recovering alocholic, Alcoholism is the system of the problem Depression, is the main cause of alocohism, But not limited too. Research before shooting off your mouth about things you know nothing about

karen, kim,

Alrighty then, I don't have time for anymore of this. You two are obviously intellectually disabled people and I'm sorry for that. That must be why you are familiar with anti-depressants. There is no information on the internet that states eating disorders, alcoholism and depression are all the same disorder. I'm not shooting off my mouth about things I know nothing about, both of you are. The fact that Kim so vehemently denies that Alyssa was on Prozac since 2007 is on the story above. You two are completely insane.

Rocki, if you are the person I think you are, then please answer this. I was wondering your views. The other person was arguing that at 15, Alyssa shouldn't be held responsible for understanding the side effects of SSRI's. I was wondering if you think that at 15, a child is old enough to understand and make decisions on abortion, birth control, and family planning. I believe that at 15, these children should have the choice to have an abortion or take birth control. I also believe that if we think they are old enough to make those decisions, then they are old enough to be held accountable for murder.

I'm sorry but for all the people who think "counseling" is the key for this girl...It's pointless and a waste of money. What she did was beyond curiosity. We need to see thats sometimes there are just bad people and bad children who are beyond kind words and best efforts by professionals. Not all children are innocent like we'd like to believe and not all can be helped. Now throwing her in prison for the rest of her life and studying her absolutely! If we can understand how her head works...could we do something with it in the future? maybe, who knows. I may sound heartless for this opinion but she's a lost case and we need to understand that.

Concerned Citizen,
Rocki , is exactly who you think he is? He is Jason,J,seth colonel and a few others. Look who he argues with; People who know who he is and will not back down to him? He has not once backed up any of his opinions with any proof or fact. This poser continues to argue with some of us when we do not agree with him, as if his word is FACT. He is ridiculous. I 'm very familiar with Alcoholism and drug abuse as well as other addictions. I'm a drug and Alcohol Rehab. Counselor. I have been working in the field of Alcohol and Drug abuse for 12 yrs. What dose Rocki know? He has the brain of a simpletion! In order to understand how people feel, and react to stressful situations they have to be a human being, that is impossible for Rocki he's not human. He only knows how to stir up animosity among people.

karen,
(or kim) whoever you are,
if you are a drug an alcohol counselor and think that eating disorders, substance abuse and depression are all the same disorder, (per kim) then we are all in a lot of trouble. If that is the way all these disorders are being treated, then it is no wonder why rehab.'s have a terribly low success rate.

karen,
I have numerous times backed up my opinion with facts that you and kim have chosen to ignore. As in the fact that Alyssa was on Prozac you can see if you scroll to the story above, a FACT that kim chooses to repeatedly tell me is not true. I have yet to see any specific back up information on that fact that eating disorders, alcoholism and depression are the same thing, which is what you two seem to believe. The facts you two site are "the information is on the website" (karen) what website? And "I don't have time to look it up right now." (kim.)

Concerned Citizen,
Dealing with pregnancy and abortion are far more concrete and simple issues than a more complicated one of the side effects of SSRI's. The point I was making was that Alyssa was under the influence of a psychotropic drug during the time she committed this murder and she is not the only teen in the news who has been in that same situation. (Before these boneheads started attacking me, it appears that they do not have a high enough level of intelligence to fully understand the relationship between depression and addiction so they are convinced that they are the same thing.)

Rocki,
Get on the band wagon. I said that Alcoholism, drug abuse and eating disorders are a form of depression. Pay attention, there is a difference. Take Alcoholism, I know a lot about that subject. Alcoholism is a symptom of the problem. In rehab. there is therapy, and or medication. In my case I had been drinking for 16 yrs. I never dealt with the abuse I suffered as a child. Therefore, I developed addictions to run from my past. Anorexia and Alcoholism. Going to School for the job I have now and the years of therapy, Alcohol and anorexia are used to medicate the addicted abuser. Reality of ones childhood trauma in most cases are to much to bear. We are depressed. So we starve ourselves and drink Look up Bipolar 1-2, read about depression, and addictions. Maybe that will help you “Jane.”
As far as Justin, Rocki J Marie The poser Seth and Sandy I have my own opinions as do you. You Justin, even if I had not read things that the other Butt heads had said. I don't like you who ever you are, you would fight with Jesus Christ. And still try to win the arguement

karen,
So now you are advising me to read about bi-polar (which I did.) And the very interesting thing is that the article did not say that it was the same as major depressive disorder (for which most anti-depressants have been created and tested.) So now you are attempting to tell me that Bipolar (manic depression) is the same as regular depression. Sorry, your slippery logic won't work with me.

Bipolar Disorder is a combination of mania and depression. When antidepressants are used to treat bipolar, they seldom work. Mainly because they only treat the depressive side of the disorder.

Rocki, I would disagree that the decision to have a child or abort it is as simple as you imply. Making the decision on whether or not to have a child is a tough decision to make if you are at a young age. I'm sure you know that it's hard, because I think I remember you saying you have at least one child. It's also a life long decision that can be stressful emotionally and financialy. When children are given the option to have an abortion, they are given the same types of pamplets as when they start taking meds. They receive equal amounts of support and information, even if we think that support and info may not be adequate. Thank you for answering the question. I just wanted to know your views on the subject.

Concerned Citizen,
Although the decision to have a child or not can be a complex one, I don't think they are similar enough situations to compare the degree of knowledge. I'm sure that a teen who makes either decision at some point would feel they made the wrong one, no matter which way they went. But in that situation, a correction can be made at some point after the decision. If a teen chooses abortion, they can later choose to get married and have a child and be a good parent. If they have the baby and find they cannot take care of it, they can have it adopted (I know I'm simplifying it but the choice is there) Once these drugs cause disturbing side effects, the element of choice is virtually non-existent. The person has a vested interest in not being honest about their thoughts which are abnormal, b/c they know if they tell someone, there will be more treatment. And more treatment usually means hospitalization and more drugs.

I can't wait until these two address what you just said about bi-polar. They need an introduction into the world of reading comprehension for seniors.

The thing is, birth control has many side effects, just as many as any other drug. Also, abortion can be life threatening. So, in my opinion, I believe that those choices in healthcare can be just as important.

About the bipolar, I was trying to help you out. While, yes, depression is involved, antidepressants only begin to scratch the surface of bipolar disorder. They can be used in conjunction with other meds such as lithium (which is said to be outdated) or other meds directed toward the manic side of the disorder. My husband was also a drug addiction counselor and he will be the first to tell you that they don't have the ability to address anything more than the addiction due to time constraints, education on the subject, and financial constraints. Just because someone is a counselor, doesn't mean they have the ability to correctly address all of the issues that come along with addiction. I am an auditor, so my knowledge of course is even more limited :)

Concerned Citizen,
Yes, I totally understand, but at least you will say the truth. Rehab. cannot be substituted for psychotherapy. (the powers that be will not even understand that statement, but you will) Rehab will only give you tools to combat your addiction. There is not enough time to find the underlying cause that against logic, causes someone to continue to go back to this destructive behavior once the physical cravings are diminished.

I knew we would agree about something one day!

Concerned Citizen,
And what I was saying was that Alyssa does not have enough experience with her own mental state to make these decisions. The story above said that she has been on Prozac since 2007 and was in a hospital for a suicide attempt for ten days, after which she daily saw a therapist (county social worker, per the note where "the social worker testifed") It doesn't say if she was given the Prozac before or after the suicide attempt but sounds like it was for the cutting. Which could very well be the wrong treatment, since I have never read that cutting is a symptom of depression. Cutting is more like an addictive behavior. I can't say that an anti-depressant and a county social worker would have been the best possible treatment for her but that's what she got, and now it's too late to help her.

But the behavior of straight out lying about what is on the top of this page (by those 2) and trying some kind of circular logic lumping numerous mental illnesses into the category of depression and then accusing me of not having facts just blows my mind. I don't understand why they would do that. If I am wrong, I have no problem admitting it. I don't know what purpose that behavior serves.

Concerned Citizen,
Well, I can tell you are smart and think about the whole picture before even hinting at a decision. I just am very against anti-depressants (not them in themselves) but the way they are over-prescribed. I know from experience and it's no fun to see your own behavior turn into something you can't control and is totally destroying the life that you worked for 15 years to build. And then as soon as the anti-depressant is taken away, the behavior returns to normal. These drugs needs more control, they are handed out in many cases like it's no big deal and I truly think they contributed to this murder.

In fact, there is an article TODAY on msn health & fitness that actually states that anti-depressants only help in the severe depression category. They do no good for moderate to mild depression.

http://health.msn.com/health-topics/depression/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100252092

the article talks about sleep and appetite disturbances in depression and feelings of dread or suicide. Nowhere in the article does it mention anorexia or alcoholism or cutting as a sypmtom or form of depression.

Wow, that's quite a different tone than what you used when you were first addressing my opinion. I'm really neither a boob-headed idiot or a Republican Stepford wife. In essence, I'm not very educated on psychological disorders, but I believe that at 15, if someone is old enough to be responsible for having a child, then they are responsible for murder if they commit it. I also believe that we cannot relieve her of her punishment just because she was on mind altering drugs. If that were the case, then most murderers would walk because a lot are on some type of mind altering drug whether pharmacological or street.

No, she can't be relieved of this crime. But she shouldn't go to jail for the rest of her life either. There has to be an in-between. I just looked at this you-tube video about alyssa. The truth is that I have a 9 year old daughter and I don't want any Alyssa's out there in my neighborhood. I can't stand to look at Elizabeth's picture and I know that this could have been prevented. I am 100% sure that the family will file a gigantic lawsuit against Ely Lilly and win. This will be a famous lawsuit and it will set a new precedent for the regulation of these drugs. This crime would have to be one of the worst senseless things the world has ever seen. Both of these girls are so young, they are almost still babies. No baby like Elizabeth should ever have to face the horror that is the greed and corruption of the US healthcare and pharmaceutical industry (I know Eli Lilly is in the UK-so don't get me on that.) There are many many other lawsuits, criminal indictments and government fines going on just this year and in response to senator Grassley's effots to inform the public about the many many conflicts of interest within the psychiatric field concerning pharmaceutical companies.

Even the inventor of these SSRI's, Dr. Candice Pert, has commented on them and states that they are not as selective as the pharmaceutical industry would have the public believe. The creator of the drug is against their use? Sounds like a repeat for the atomic bomb situation.

Another point of interest is a story from 2/2009 where AstraZeneca pharmaceutical and the Mayo Clinic have licensed a portfolio of "triple reuptake inhibitors" and guess where the research is being done.....Virginia Tech.
Interesting.

http://www.fiercebiotech.com/press-releases/astrazeneca-licenses-novel-antidepressant-compounds-discovered-mayo-clinic-and-virgin

And then there is Melissa Huckaby, also on a cocktail of mind-altering drugs and drugging other people with them. The police said there is no historical case history of female pedophiles raping girls and killing them. You really have to wonder. Expecially when Kim says that the incidents of serious side effects are few. But doesn't the severity of the side effects count. They not only have an impact on the taker, but also, the surrounding innocent people. That's like saying if they discovered a new type of aspirin that had a side effect of causing the person to explode and burst into flames, killing others around them, it's OK if it only happens a couple of times. No, it's not OK.

I know I've posted too many on this story so hopefully this is my last but to all you who think anti-depressants don't deserve to be addressed in this situation, don't you think that Elizabeth's mother, a woman who can now go to the ends of this planet for her soft, smoochy little angel who used to sit on her lap and give her kisses and hugs, bring her home made mother's day cards from school, will find her no where, deserves a real answer? Not just some half-truth bullshit. It sickens me that people think she doesn't.

Two issues here, why Alyssa should and is going to be tried as an adult. The second is Antidepressants Pro-Con.
Alyssa Was diagonosed with sever depression before 2007 after her suicide attept and hospital stay she was perscribed prozac.

How serious is the risk, and are antidepressants worth it? These drugs probably can be useful for children, although the evidence is mixed and conflicting. Several controlled trials favor antidepressants, including paroxetine and fluoxetine (Prozac), over a placebo. A 2003 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association compared sertraline (Zoloft) with a placebo in children ages 6–17 with major depression. In two trials, the combined response rate was 69% for sertraline and 59% for the placebo — a modest but statistically significant effect. But other studies have found no benefit from paroxetine or sertraline. Fluoxetine is the only drug now specifically approved for major depression in children and adolescents, but any antidepressant approved for adult patients can legally be prescribed for children.

The European and FDA warnings were based on three clinical trials involving patients under 18 with major depression, in which 1%–2% of those taking a placebo and 2%–3.5% of those taking paroxetine showed potentially suicidal behavior. There were no suicides in either group.

Why aren’t the laws written to protect the innocent victims instead of the criminals? I just don’t understand why she wasn’t monitored at least if they knew she was dangerous. She shouldn’t even been allowed to be with her own siblings. They are lucky she didn’t snap with them

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/16/stop-the-abuse-and-murder-of-the-children-in-the-us
Rocki This is where you have been getting your information from:
Teenagers, Children, Antidepressants and Suicide
Thursday, September 15th, 2005
Antidepressants for teenagers and children have become a controversial topic thanks to all the evidence that is surfacing linking the side effects of these drugs to suicides and violent behavior. For years many groups have been calling for the investigation of the side effects from drugs like Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft. Particularly when they are prescribed to children and young adults. This year the US FDA and several other governments have determined that antidepressants are causing the deaths of many children. Some have banned the drugs outright while others have required to place a strong warning label on these drugs.

First of all, all you guys who are bitching about the laws about 14-year-olds having sex just makes you sound like you want to have sex with 14-year-olds. I lied to grown men about my age (despite my baby blue braces) when I was 14 and engaged in sexual activity with them. Now that I'm grown, I feel like I was taken advantage of because I feel like a decent man would say, "Clearly, you are not 20-years-old. I'm getting out of here." But instead, those d-bags went ahead and had sex with me. I also take responsibility in the fact that I was putting myself in scary situations and shouldn't have been doing that.

Point is, there's a difference between what all teenagers go through during puberty, sexual experimentation, etc. You pretty much come out of the womb knowing it's not okay to kill people. Quit defending this sad sack of space.

Also, look up Dominic Culpepper. I went to school with him and Wesley McCool, the boy he killed over $250 and half-pound of marijuana. Dominic was 14 and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole -- I KNEW the kid and I hope he rots in there and thinks about Wesley's face as he mercilessly beat him over some b.s. teenage boy rivalry. I don't ever want Alyssa to get out of prison. She's a lost soul. Teenagers killing children is not common. These are called "warning signs." Deal with it.

mcr, Okay sounds good.

karen,
I have been getting my information from way more than one place. It's all over the news. New York times, MSN, SSRI stories index, British Medical Journal Study on self-inflicted injuries. I do agree with you. The innocent victims should be protected. That's why Elizabeth's mother has the right to know the whole truth.

ALL medications have side effects. So what, no one gets to benefit from them? There's no telling how SSRI's and other antidepressants will effect a person. It's not just antidepressants that can cause suicidal or other violent behaviors. There's no doubt the pharmaceutical companies take advantage of patients, but most kids get put on antidepressants because they need more immediate relief from their symptoms than therapy alone can provide. If you don't want to take medications, that's your call. But quit using the same medications that help millions of people as a scape-goat every time some little a**hole kills somebody. Bad stuff happens all over the world. Kids kill kids even when there's no medications involved. It's just the way of the world.

I'm not going to debate this anymore because you had your own opinion and I have mine and so, yes, I think they should be BANNED except for the purposes they are thoroughly tested for and with these kinds of things going on, I am sure it will one day come to that. Very soon. Kids don't deserve to die so others can be happier.

As far as reports of kids killing kids, (especially with the bizarre circumstances of "killing to see what it felt like") the only two I have seen in the news lately are this and Andrew Conley who was also in the mental health system, so it appears that getting kids in the system and getting them on medication does more harm than good. It would be very "sad" if they killed themselves b/c they were depressed but it is worse to take others down with them.

Rocki, What! Elizabeth's mother needs to find out the truth from you? What kind of drugs are you taking? You know, I have tried to let you know that if you are Jane I'm sorry for being rude. Like you and Sandy, I changed my user name to. The three of us debated back and fourth and yes we pulled together and attacked Seth and the other names he used to argue with us(he used racist names). Regardless to whom ever you are, I don't care what your opinion is. Antidepressants are here for children and adults alike and there here to stay. I work with all ages of people and with the parents permission starting at the age of 13 children are admitted to our Rehab. After they are detoxed, have a physical and have a two week psychiatric evaluation if need children and or adults are put on antidepressants with success. My opinion and the opinion of medical and psychiatric professionals that

Good Night

Like I said, you have your opinion, I have mine. People think anti-depressants work and are her to stay. I think the opposite. There are numerous reports and studies that support each side. There is way too much skewed data, outright crime on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry and misconduct on the part of the FDA to really assume that we know much about them at all. So, if reading the news makes me a "druggie" then I guess I'll have to get my fix.

I find it very suspicious that so many people who profess to know so much about anti-depressants are so dogmatic about them being available to children. The information on them is so ambiguous on both sides pro & con. I never said I was totally against them (because I know a great deal about them both from personal research and having a degree in psychology/biology and I would never be that dogmatic about something that cannot be pinned down.) I am against the way they are being used for very different purposes than they have been tested for.

Rocki, Like what are you suggesting? What are they being used for? I do as well have a personsl intrest with children and antidepressants. Not only because of where I work, My Grandson takes several medications and two are antidepressants. I thank God for them, they saved Stephen's life. Without them, he had no life. This is the main reason I feel so strongly about them. I see first hand how antidepressants gave my grandson his life back.

karen,

That type of thing is exactly what I am talking about. Three different people's experiences, mine, yours, Alyssa's yield three vastly different results. They are at this time, a great unknown.

Interest

Rocki, getting back on track of the topic. What I am saying is that Alyssa was diagnosed with depression before 2007. Who knows if she was taking the Meds. properly. Who knows if she was taking them at all. Do we know if other drugs were involved? With your backround take out the Medication for a minute. She or anyone that commits a crime like she did, would have to be criminal insane. She was evaluated and found that she is not insane. She display violet behavior before she was put on the Meds. Thats why her grandmother took her to the doctor and he put her on them because of her violet out burst. In Alyssa's case I strongly do not believe antidepressants had anything to do with her killing that little girl. She was a time bomb and she went off.

Alyssa was not well to begin with. I will agree with that. But we do not know the time frame of events. Did her suicide attempt occur before or after she was put on Prozac? Why exactly was she on it? If for the cutting behavior, that's not what it says it treats. I just looked on an ad for Prozac and it says it treats depression, anxiety, OCD and anorexia/bulimia. No cutting (but I can see how that would likened to eating disorders or OCD) Specifically it does not say anything about controlling violent outbursts. Wouldn't you think a tranquilizer would do a better job of that?

Here is my experience with "what are they being used for":
I find that they are being prescribed at about a rate of 50% in a group of intellectually disabled people I am very personally familiar with and no of no history of depression or suicide in all but 1 person out of about 10-15. They are being prescribed to these people against age-specific guidelines per the FDA, sometimes 3 different drugs in one individual. (please don't ask me any more about this, I don't want to say too much per HIPAA) Some people have exhibited extreme negative behaviors during each of three specific time periods when meds were switched and this is not addressed. the individual is being held entirely accountable for the behaviors although they are on about 3-6 different psych meds and numerous others. These people and children do not have the experience and voice that I do and these drugs did a number on myself. And I really have to wonder, is it more of a convenience to control behavior than true interest in the individual's state of mind?

My situtation:
I know several people they have been prescribed for IBS or no appetite. Not on the list!

Myself, given Lexapro by an internist that I never met before on the advice of a marriage counselor who told my husband "she needs drugs for that" (OCD) I then proceeded to almost immediately get a DUI (less than 30 days later-I am 41, I have no DUI's) and was given another drug "Campral" by this internist to stop the drinking. I proceeded to get a bunch of drunk in publics. I then went to a day treatment program, got antabuse, a hypnotherapist, had a suicide attempt, and went to a rehab. Any counselor, psychiatrist I spoke to never gave me a test for depression, they just assumed I was because I was on Lexapro. My blood pressure went from 120/80 to 145/110 during these 9 mos. I was on Lexapro and completely unable to stop drinking. In addition, the internist who prescribed the Lexapro started kissing me a grabbing me in his office (I guess in response to my giggling at him-because I think I was high off of Lexapro.) I was completely honest about my mental history with all people I went to. But only when I finally was so terrified of my own behavior (I was also becoming delusional and obsessed with this doctor after he did this, he was from Iraq, that I started thinking I should leave my husband for a mulsim, WTF?) All the drinking and delusions and blood pressure slowly disapeared after the Lexapro was removed and I have never been in trouble for drinking or anything again. And it has been over 1 1/2 years since this has all happened so I can safely say it was Lexapro. How many other people, less experienced than myself were sent up the river by these drugs?

So I take offense when Kim says, "just because you and your father can't take these, all of psychiatry is wrong." If I can justifiably prove adverse mental effects and delusions (b/c I can see them with my own eyes) then wouldn't it stand to reason that the pharmaceutical companies know a lot more than me? And that's a risk they are willing to take. It's not their risk to take, it's my life and others' lives who can't take these drugs (yes a small proportion) but they don't have a right to not be held accountable when their drug malfunctions in the proportion of the population.

Karen,
and I shouldn't need to add anything judging by the length (very sorry) but while I was on that medication and delusional, (thank god my delusions were about this doctor and not killing people) I knowingly hid this information from people b/c I knew my mind was deteriorating and knew that it would mean more of the same treatment (more drugs) which clearly was not working. The only reason I knew this was abnormal is because I had 20 years previous experience with my "normal" mind. I was a relatively high functioning person despite what had been served up to me in the past.

Karen,
I know I only have negatives to share. But for the most part, I'm guessing they do help. Lexapro helped me at first, I did feel better, but then things went quickly down hill. If they do help your grandson, then I am very happy for him. People should have them, if they help. Everyone is different. Many people are fans of potato salad, I think it's vomitacious. Of course we shouldn't allow people to be in catatonic depression if we can help, or otherwise suffer. (we shouldn't be letting those stem cells go to waste either, ah, the animal sacrifice story....you can sacrifice 500 animals but don't dare mess up a stem cell...all in the name of religion..ha ha ..)

Karen,
did you really say you were "saywhat"? (from gribble)

When I think of genuine concern and progress towards mental health considerations, the words "blockbuster" and "best seller" don't really come to mind, however if you look up certain anti-depressants, like lexapro, you will find exactly that.

Looks like in about 25 years, the treament for the mentally ill has remained about the same. What's changed is that the pharmaceutical companies have turned this gruesome situation into an 80 billion dollar a year industry.

http://crime.about.com/od/serial/p/richard_chase.htm

Whats from gribble)? I thank I am getting a better idea of what you are saying. We both agree that pharmaceutical companies are basically stealing off of the pain and suffering of the public. They are making billions of dollars on other medications besides antidepressants. Some people can not take certain types of medications, not just antidepressants. Examples: My sister was taking Ambiam CR. She was sleep walking and sleep eating. My mother can not take Penicillin, she will die if she takes it. It stands to reason that some people can not tolerate antidepressants, like you and your Dad. Alyssa was put on Prozac for her suicide attempt when she was put in the hospital; In early 2007. My opinion on the story is, the grandparents had the kid since she was 7 yrs old. They had to have seen her behavior. The signs were all there, the grandparents dropped the ball with her. As a parent, it is my duty to ensure the mental and physical health of my child. In order to do that, I would have had her into her doctors on a regular bases checking her meds and have her in therapy.
The bottom line is that Alyssa was diagnosed with depression before she went into the hospital. Her violate behavior was already present towards her siblings. The grandparents saw that, they lived with her everyday. Alyssa was not a good kid one-day and out of the blue the next day she was a killer, and this took the grandparents by completely surprised their little sweetheart had a problem?
I don't know Rocki, if you are trying to say that antidepressants are some how to blame for her crime, but I am saying Alyssa was going to murder someone regardless to if she was on Prozac or not. In her case Antidepressants are not to blame here.

Karen,
I see what you are saying. Yes, she was screwed up obviously by the obsession with cutting and death. The grandmother being so far removed by age was probably clueless and easily bamboozled by Alyssa. And then the prozac in combination with a social worker as her treatment? If the parents were more like you and me, I don't think this would have happened b/c they would be more involved in her treatment and keep trying things until they worked, like addressing the cutting behavior until they got to the basis of the problem. But the whole thing was probably mostly a result of shitty parenting anyway. That's why I just think there are more responsible parties than just Alyssa. And maybe I am putting too much weight on prozac. Because I think we all know that "operator error" is usually the most likely culprit. (And by that, I mean a combination of safety nets that were not there, or failed.)

karen,
gribble-there is a comment there that says you are "saywhat" but it doesn't sound like you actually wrote it. (by the stuff I was saying to marie heck.)

No I don't know what you are talking about. There are some statements on here I didn't put on. Maria was getting a little excited. I thank I know who you are now. Sandy toned down to much. I figured out who Sandy was, I blogged something nasty to her she let me know who she was. Look at what she said to Justin or maybe Matt not sure of his user name in-regards to Trey and Matt's wife being a black designer that's our friend, and not Seth it was to him.

Karen,
oh that's too funny, I saw that comment and couldn't figure out what it meant. I thought it was people who knew each other in real life. I knew you didn't make those comments under your name, that's why I once said, Karen is no longer with us - meaning the poser was using your name. I can tell your comments and some of those just can't be you. Especially if it's "saywhat", I apologize in advance if you were them and being funny, but some of those comments were truly bizarre.

Rocki, What was going on, is that I was responding to Justin, the one Maria refers to as the new one. I do thank he's igger. Sandy was addressing Seth and igger at the same time. Then you had the posers mixing up the statements. The ideas and statements no longer made sense. I also thank people are using different user names and they are one person. Look Maria did it. I'm not completely sure but Sandy is Sandy H. I hope she doesn't get mad at me. That's what I thank anyway.

This girl needs lots of help. What she did is very wrong, sick and crazy. She needs to go to the big house and get some help...

According to an article on momlogic, there are actually numerous risk factors shown in teens who kill. There is a disorder known as oppositional defiant disorder and conduct disorder in children which will develop into anti-social personality disorder in the adult. The article sites that the American Assoc. of Adolescent Psyciatry the treatment for this is family and behavioral therapy. This is the link:
http://www.momlogic.com/2009/11/why_teens_are_killing_kids_michelle_golland_elizabeth_olten_alex_mercado.php
Interestingly enough, according to this site, the Mayo Clinic, in direct opposition to The Psychiatric community,
advises the use of drugs which are for ADHD.
http://www.bing.com/health/article/mayo-118018/Oppositional-defiant-disorder-ODD?q=oppositional+defiant+disorder&FORM=K1RE

Kim, Karen,
I ran into a very interesting thing on youtube by Psychetruth which stated that an effect of anti-depressants is to increase neuron cell growth in the hippocampus and that people with trauma and alcoholism can have reduced cell growth in that area of the brain and actually have a reduced size hippocampus. Depression and stress also lower cell growth in this area. I have seen more recent articles that anti-depressants result in permanent personality changes as well. (Maybe from the new cell growth) The actual mechanism of SSRI's is thought to be enhanced seratonin, but an actual state of chemical imbalance in seratonin has never been proven. Could it be that the same old culprits we always thought responsible for depression really are, trauma & stress? If you google things like "neurogenesis hippocampus alcoholism antidepressants" you will find articles. Just thought I's share this with you since you seemed really interested.

One last thing, it seems for unknown reasons that a huge percent of patients develop psychosis and depression (usually short term psychosis, but sometimes more lasting depression) after bypass surgery and other personaility changes.

WOW,WOW,WOW,LIFE IN PRISON IS JUST WRONG!!! If this crime was commited over here in Denmark she would get 1-6 years and probably not even that because of her circumstances and her age!

Over here we don't even have life in prison as an option for our adults, infact the maximum penalty for any crime is 16 years! We believe in second, third and fourth chances, and even in the case of murder. How do you feel about abortion and all the half-human sperm and egg cells that will never be conceived!?!? Same difference.

AN GUESS WHAT WE HAVE SOME OF THE LOWEST CRIME RATES IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD.

SERIOUSLY ABOLISH JUVENILE LIFE SENTENCING
IMMEDIATELY IT SO FREAKING ILLOGICAL IT MAKES ME SICK.

GET RID OF LIFE SENTENCING ALL TOGETHER IT IS INHUMAN. ALL COUNTRIES SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE OF HOPE COMPASSION AND FORGIVNESS IT WILL BUILD US A BETTER FUTURE

actually curious and confused...this forum is sounding more like a debate over anti-depressant drugs and there affects. My curiosity is...was not Alyssa put on anti-depressants after attempting suicide and diagnosed with severe depression, and self mitilation? That's usually why these medication are prescribed. Also I have not read or found any proof that she was actually taking the ant-depressant, just statements that she was put on this medication in 2007. Keeping to the main topic is far more interesting than reading about thoughts and oppinions of medication side effects. I rather read about updates on the investigation of the crime committed.

I don't know where you people learn to read but the statement "has been on Prozac since 2007" leads me to believe that she's been taking since then and still is. Never says she took in in 2007. That's what I was saying in the first place, she was given this drug incorrectly b/c cutting = suicide is WRONG DIAGNOSIS and she was given this drug that the makers have lied about since it's been fucking invented and it drove her nuts and is the reason she killed this girl. The thing the article actually DOES NOT state is that she was diagnosed with "severe depression" which is what the drug was invented and tested for in clinical trials which last a whopping 8 weeks.

LEARN TO READ, I think they let the tossed salad man out of jail last week, he's looking for you and Kim b/c you can't read!!!!!

The above poster from Denmark is right. Most other countries have lower crime rates and far lighter punishments especially for kids. Most don't have executions anymore b/c they realize that it is barbaric. We are very spoiled and deluded than people in other countries. We are willing to sacrifice this child to feed our own delusion that doctors can save our lives and that they know everything. If I'm in a car accident with internal damage and broken bones or have a heart attack, yes, they can save my life, with good old needle and thread and casts but when it comes to chronic disease, no one of us will ever escape death, we are all gonna die and would be better off to face that truth and make the world better for generations to come. Doctors are notorious for being really book smart and having no common sense, most of them will prescribe about 5 different drugs after speaking to a person for a total of about 20 minutes over a 4 month period of time. If I get a disease, I'd rather take my chances with a witch doctor.

She is lyke SOOO cute, that is why they should let her go.

ITT: uneducated, ignorant RETARDS and armchair psychologists.

i cant even believe the level of idiocy on this page. she needs to be in a mental facility not put to death or locked in a prison for life.

im surprised you ass backwards hicks haven't formed a lynch mob and tried to burn her at the stake. get real.

Excuses nothing, but giving SSRIs to teens often results in violent thoughts and homicidal or suicidal thoughts and/or behavior. This girl should not have been given Prozac.

The boy who lured another into the woods was Rod Matthews. He told the other boy he had fireworks. He picked the boy because he decided he'd be "least missed." When the boy was bent over lighting the fireworks Rod beat him to death with a baseball bat. It was in Canton, Massachusetts. Mid-80's.

http://www.uhuh.com/education/drugskill.htm

If some1 i loved was killed, it would be horrible but i would have no problem forgiving the killer. murder is horrible not the murderers. i don't see what not forgiving the killer is going to do. is not forgiving the killer going to bring the person back?

also, if anyone of us were in alyssa's or any killers shoes we would have ended up killing as they did. all the right circumstances coming together to the time of the kill. as much as you want to believe we really do not have free will, our mind-changing and choice making included.

this girl should go through rehabilitation and mental help, but i'm afraid so many of the people in this country are from the draconian age a decent jury is impossible.
if she gets a life prison sentence i'm going to be pissed.

the supreme court should follow the international law that children shouldn't be sentenced to death in prison.

If that's true about the prozac
she should be taken off of it.
and, yea, i don't like those medications something doesnt seem right with them and I dont want her taking it.

The possible side-effects are just as bad and worse than the problems theyre supposed to treat, and just dang toxic. if she's on it to prevent suicide, I think extensive mental help would be better. I hope she gets well.

Alyssa is so pretty, I wish I looked like her in her picture with the pink scarf : D

Be mentally sick adult with psychopathy, depression, anxiety and/or a drug that makes it worse, plan a murder days before hand, admit you basically premeditated the murder and go to jail for life and possibly get the death penalty without any sympathy from the public.

Be a 15 year old white girl with same mental issue, be charged as an adult with the risk of life in prison and the death penalty and you get loads of public sympathy.

What is the difference? Mental issues, drugs or not this person deserves to be tried as an adult. I'm 21 and when I was 15 back in the mid 2000's I was a pretty angsty teenager, had a few run ins with the law but I sure as hell recognized the punishments and effects of murdering anther human. Anyone over the age of 13 is already mature enough to know what they are doing, and what the punishments are for murdering anther person.

Maybe things are different to days youth, everyone says we are growing up a lot faster then older generations, although I think it is mostly just the older generations complaing about how it was back in the day.

she should be treated the same way she did to that poor little girl, they should kill her the same way and dont think that i am a killer but just think about the pain that poor little girl felt during the last minutes of her life and the pain her family is now living. Since she wanted to know "how it felt like to kill some one" she probably wants to know what it feels like to be killed too!!!

I just turned 16.
and I heard about this tragedy....
I have a 11 year old little sister, and when I heard about this, it made my stomach drop...
honestly if you are capable of killing a innocent child, you seriously have majoir issues.
I completly agree with her being treated as a adult with her sentence.
And I dont think it will be good enough for her...
because that 9 year olds family will NEVER be able to hold her in their arms ever again but Alyssa is going to be in jail for years?
the law isn't tough enough anymore...they've soften up,
and it's truly sad...
And to the 9 year olds family I'm very sorry for your lost...
keep loving the little angel in the sky

The term sociopath is used far too casually.

You people referring to her as a sociopath are misinformed. A child under the age of 18 cannot be diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder, due to a still developing personality and really, that along with brain development isn't complete until sometime in a person's 20's.

Furthermore, commiting murder does not mean a person is a sociopath, there is further criteria to meet.

Juveniles should not be considered the most depraved offenders or seen as commiting "adult crimes" but as commiting crimes they truly are not as culpable for.

They often, have little to no concept of the consequences of their actions and there influence on their own lives and on the outside world. They also do not have adequate decision making skills and have not developed the thought process adults have.

In the case of Christopher Simmons, who as a 17 year old commited premeditated murder, pshycologists who had evaluated him determined he was "very immature", "very impulsive", and "very suseptable to being influenced or manipulated".

Studies have also found that juveniles are more vulnerable to negative influences and outside pressures, including peer pressure. They have a lack of maturity and sense of responsibility compared to adults and they have less control, or experience with control, over their environment.

The Supreme Court reasoned:

1) Youth are more likely to display a lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility.

2) Juveniles’ susceptibility to immature and irresponsible behavior means “their irresponsible conduct is not as morally reprehensible as that of an adult.” Juveniles
are more vulnerable to peer pressure and lack control over their immediate environment. They are more susceptible to influence and psychological damage than
adults.²

3) The character of the juvenile is not as well formed as that of an adult. The personality traits of juveniles are more malleable and less fixed. The reality that juveniles still struggle to define their identity means it is less supportable to conclude that even a heinous crime committed by a juvenile is evidence of irretrievably depraved character.

"Furthermore, adult punishments are an ineffective deterrent for juveniles. The same characteristics that render juveniles less culpable than adults suggest as well that juveniles will be less susceptible to
deterrence.”

Boy, 14, Released After Killing Father: On Prozac

http://www.click2houston.com/news/18651344/detail.html

The numbers are obvious. prozac turning suicidal mentally ill teen into a killer? makes sense to me. prozac has been proven to cause psychotic effects in adolescents. There was a recent school shooting in germany and guess what the shooter was on? prozac. its clear these mind-altering antidepressants are making teens do crazy things by affecting their underdeveloped minds. whenever there's a crime like this these drugs are more than half of the time involved.

To the people speaking of your piss poor family and childhood and how normal you turned out your just being ignorant. that had a role in this crime aswell. the factors you people are leaving out are genetic, temprement, individual vulneralism, take the enviornment and a young teens mind and it could be influenced to act in this way.

I mean really put yourself in her position. I get a sick to my insides feeling. I dont get that feeling if I put myself in the position of these other stories.

To all the whackos speaking of how "evil" this "monster" is and calling for her to be burned at the stake and executed: Oh, please GET A LIFE.
get a life, a education, and learn to actually use your brain and that thing called LOGIC. I know being ignorant is much easier.
I know logic is a hard thing for many to use, it's much easier to not use your brain and just be ignorant and judgmental and generalize.

I can't speak for alyssa's situation but I had a loving grandmother, however if I had to live with her and were seperated from my parents i would feel VERY uncomfortable, the only people i felt comfy with were my parents, I would probs be thinking bout suicide as well.
People are more sensitive to their enviornment and situation than others. this on top of alyssa's background and her parents irresponsible behaviour and the influence prozac could have had on her.
life expairance and is what help makes you up at that age.
i know that i didnt think my mom was the best she's dumb, cluless, and gets mad easy but i cant say she didnt try, dads a good person but an alcholic and acted weird sometime when he was drunk. im 20 and subsequntly suffer from an abnormal personalty im very shy, withdrawn, inarticulant and try to stay away from people. now that im older and more expeiranced i understand my personality disorder and get everything much better. its difficult for me to verbalize what i want to say and hold a conversation, this i think is due to the fact i wasnt socialized with or with other kids at an early age until i started school, i was mostly just in the apartment.
so yes i can say some people are more sensitive to developing in a certain way based on these factors.
she obviously is a little off and not in the right i don't think she should be tried as an adult simply because she is not one she should get help.

I'm utterly disgusted at the disicion the ignorance and the hypocrisy to try her as an adult. It would never be possible where I'm from, I can't believe this country just goes and changes the law that way!! I certainly don't think she should be tried as an adult. She's clearly mentally ill and belongs in a juvenile facility where she can get help not in adult prison where she'll become worse.
I notice some people discrediting her because shes already been through help and are actually saying she shouldnt be reformed because of that, whether she had the mental capacity to be aware of that or not, redemtion for one tragic mistake (and yes it is at that age) is still very much possible.

Luka do you have children? My guess is no. Because if you did you would'nt be so quick to have her cast back out into society anytime soon. I certainly would'nt want her in my town around my child. Suppose the urge to 'see what it is like to kill' strikes her ass again. Who would be safe? I won't say lock her away forever but she smothered out the life of another child she need'nt get free cake and a trip to Disneyworld or a little paddle on the butt. So it's either hard time or juvie and then prison for awhile at least five years and plus plus!

NO she should never end up in prison trialing her as an adult could seriously mislead her. My suggestion is that she not be tried as an adult and go through rehab until she's 21 then to a pshychiatric hospital and let go when she's 23.

It is so dumb they are holding her in adult jail she needs to go to a place for her age, it makes no sense they trial any teen let alone a mentally ill one as an adult, she needs help

The urge of killing usually doesnt pop into 15 year old girls mind unless they are on prozac..

"The rise in gratuitous and senseless violence is a disturbing recent addition to the community landscape. Psychiatrists have tried to sell us on all the wrong reasons for this everything from a person's mental illness, poverty and broken families to genetic makeup; however, the fact missed by most is that psychiatric drugs, on an ever increasing rise in society and amongst school children, are actually creating acts of violence. The rise in senseless violence in America is date coincident with the increased use of mind-altering drugs.

How many times must history repeat itself before we start looking for the common factors present in case after case of brutal and violent acts? In the recent cases where children have become murderous, one must ask the question, even if children have access to guns or the means to make bombs, what is it that is making them pull the trigger? What twists a child so that he would kill his classmates, friends or even people that he loves? What could possibly push children over the edge to a point where their acts are unrecognizable even by those who know them?"

"On May 20, 1988, Laurie Dann walked into a Winnetka, Illinois second grade classroom carrying three pistols and began shooting innocent children, killing one and wounding five others before killing herself. Blood tests revealed that at the time of the killing, Dann was on a psychiatric drug of a class clearly shown to cause unexplained hostile and violent behavior."

"On January 17, 1989, Patrick Purdy opened fire on a school yard full of young children in Stockton, California. During his vicious and unprovoked assault, Purdy killed five school children and wounded 30 others. Purdy then killed himself. During the two years prior to the murders, Purdy had been on two psychiatric drugs of categories known to cause violence."

"On May 21, 1998 Kip Kinkel shot and killed his parents and then went a wild shooting spree at his Springfield, Oregon high school. He was reportedly prescribed psychiatric drugs."

"On November 20, 1986 Rod Mathews beat a classmate to death with a bat in the woods near his home in Canton, Mass. He had been prescribed psychiatric drugs."

"In 1995 Brian Pruitt who fatally stabbed his grandparents, had a history of psychiatric treatment and had been prescribed psychiatric drugs."

"In 1997 Sam Manzie raped and strangled another boy to death. He was also under psychiatric "care" and was being "medicated".

Just to name a few..

Now that she has kiled some one does she like rotting in jail, now is it fun and what does it feel like now that you know you are going to burn in hell!!! How would it feel if some one killed you like you killed that poor 9 year old girl... all I got to say is that I hope you feel the pain she did... you are such a bitch !!!!

Thank you so much ALL, now maybe the dumb asses that think these drugs "help" millions of people will finally shut their dumb mouths. The only bad things these drugs ever helped anyone avoid was old age.

She needs mental health help and she won't get good help in the "justice system". I have seen a documentary showing how mentally ill people simply go in and out the revolving door of the wards they are sent to. Half the time they simply give them MORE DRUGS and them set them out on the streets. This girl will likely flounder in the states care for a long time and if they do set her free she still won't be right. Its truely sad for everyone.

Rod Matthews, who was 14 when he carefully plotted the murder of Shaun Ouillette, was on the anti-depressant Ritalin. He said he murdered Ouillette because he was angry at his parents, who were then splitting up.

The board's majority held: It is not clear to this day what the underlying motivating factors that led Mr. Matthews to commit this extreme act of violence were.

I reckon peoples minds are and work differently dependingly, and can be affected differently by these drugs. The truth is that these potent drugs have been PROVEN to cause phsycotic episodes and have phsycotic side-effects in adolecence (and adults) and there are documented cases to attest to that.

According to different news stories from 2/5/2010, Glaxo will be the first pharmaceutical to stop research into new anti-depressants, citing that they want to pursue more "valuable" drugs with an actual effects that can be measured! A clear victory for future possible victims. The decade of drugging defenseless children is at it's end!!!

THREE CHEERS FOR CAPITALISM!!!
You can't hide the truth forever. In a mere 5 to 10 more years, anti-depressants will take their earned place beside the red rubber hot water bottles with corks, as obsolete and ineffective.

Why didn't she kill her self instead? Probaly because she was on prozac. This is like the umptenth time the meds have turned these depressed suicidal teens into killers?

"On November 20th, 1986, our son, Shaun Ouillette, was taken into the woods in Canton, MA and beaten to death with a baseball bat. His classmate Rod Mathews said he wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone."

:O

ALLL -- Ritalin is not an antidepressant. It's a central nervous system stimulant.

Funny how we make excuses for kids that hurt and kill others as if nothing will happen to them because they are minors. These kids know they are under 18 and they figure what the hell a few years and they are back out on the streets. It's not like that anymore under 18 or not depending on the crime more and more of these supposedly minors are being tried as adults. And they should. No excuse of abuse medications if everyone used those excuses our prison system would be empty.

dui,
Alyssa didn't choose to abuse medication. She was given Prozac per the decision of the adults responsible for her without her consent. Any minor (any person for that matter) when there is no history of murder or assault who has these medications in their system at the time they commit a crime should be given special treatment for years on the pharmaceutical companies' dollar who made the drug in a special jail/mental institution. Special 5 year long investigations should be done on all of these cases and Elizabeth Olten's family should own Prozac by now.

mcr- ah thank you for the correction i dont know much about that! they really should just get rid of all these weird medications, really i think people can learn to just suck it up. ive never needed these meds.

I think its blantly stupid to try teens as adults. there should be no jury of idiots off the streets and just "professions" making these disisions. I think judicial systems are just plain outdated.

Its not fair and just plain dumb for a teen to be judged by middle aged people. They can sentence these teens in juvenile court and they can serve it in juvie and then finish the remainder of their sentence in prison. that sounds fair doesn't?

Most countries sentence teens 1-15 years. although im aware australia and a few other countries permits adult sanctions on ocasion.

I agree that a person under 18 that doesn't take another person's life should be tried as a juvinial. When a person does what this person did to that little girl and planned it out the way she did she is responsible enough to face the consequences as an adult. Kids steal beer, cig, take a car for a ride they don't cut a person's throat. And I'm sure Proza didn't make her do it. The girl a mental history before she was put on Proza.

No, no. I think without the drug this wouldnt have happened. I believe homicide cases should be sentenced as juveniles too, I don't think its important to judge based on the nature of the crime.

Please stop blaming this girls actions on a medication that has been proven to help millions of people. I was diagnosed with clinical depression at age 14, why? Because I was depressed to the point that my mother had to beg me not to take my own life, and had to physically stop me several times before she finally could find the right people to help me.

That's what depression does; it makes a person feel so unloved, unlovable, so worthless, hopeless and unwanted that they want to hurt themselves if they can even function enough to have the energy even to make an attempt. Some days were so gruesome emotionally that I could not even leave the bed for even the most basic reasons.

I was placed in a hospital on three separate occasions, a month.. then 3 weeks and the last hospitalization being of 10 days. I was prescribed 2 other antidepressants before they finally tried me on Prozac. The first 2 made my situation worse, one even made me aggressive whereas I had not been aggressive before.

Prozac helped. It set me back on track to where I was able to function once more, to be young, to laugh rather than cry. It let me live my life again, it corrected the chemical imbalance and gave me back my hopes and dreams.

Sure, I'll admit some users do terrible things but what of the MILLIONS of us who have done no wrong? What about those of us who are don't go out killing people, who now have a chance at an actual life because this medication was exactly what we needed? Why base your opinions on the few people who want to use the medicine to excuse their wrong doings? Trust me there are only a few compared to the millions who live our lives, hurting no one.. not even ourselves thanks to Prozac.

I know this girl did a horrible thing. I also know many of you are trying to make sense out of a truly senseless tragedy and I can see why anyone would want to blame something.. anything, to explain why someone so young would do such a vicious thing. However it is not the medicines fault. She did what she did because she chose to. There is no other reason than that. She is not the first person to be born with a lack of empathy, she is not the first to kill for the sake of killing. It's a classic thing it seems for the beginnings of a lot of serial killers. Kemper, I believe it was killed when he was 15. This happened in the 1960's. I doubt they had Prozac around then, so how do you all explain his actions?

The truth is the medicine had nothing to do with what A.B. did. The medicine is just the scapegoat for people who want to do what they want without consequences. Think about it, some claim insanity, self defense, some have even claimed God or the Devil made them do it and walked away after murdering. Why wouldn't someone try to blame their medicine?

As I stated in my opening, I was 14 when I was diagnosed as clinically depressed. It took the doctors 2 years to finally try me on Prozac, at age 20 I requested to be taken off of the medicine (out of fear, I too heard the whispers of how bad Prozac was suppose to be). Within months I realized that without something to control my chemical imbalance I was landing myself right back where I began. I went back on Prozac and am now 31 years old. I have never killed anyone, never had the desire to do such thing. The only one who was ever in danger in my darkest days was myself. I am an educated woman, with a family I dearly love. I consider myself lucky that the doctors did place me on Prozac because without it, I would not be here today.

For those who are so against this medicine, ask yourself this; what if it were you that walked into your teenage daughters bedroom one night to check on her, and found her sobbing with a gun to her head. What if it were your child that felt so hopeless and worthless that she was about to pull that trigger. Wouldn't you take a chance on a medicine that could possibly help save your child's life? Wouldn't you try grasp at anything that could offer some hope for your child if they were effected by a chemical imbalance that could be helped by simply taking 1 or 2 pills a day?

I'm thankful to my mom for taking the risks on Prozac, thankful to my doctors for suggesting it as it was the only thing that corrected my depression and gave me my life back.

I once again ask all of you, don't blame a medicine that has helped and even saved millions of people solely based on the actions and poor impulses of a few who just need a scapegoat. Do not focus entirely on the negatives and risks of a medicine of this medicine but understand it does have its positive outcomes as well. Besides, what medicines doesn't have risks? You need to trust that most doctors don't make the choice to put people on any medicine spur of the moment, good doctors monitor their patients with frequent visits and blood work to be sure that medicines aren't being overdone or skipped. How do any of us even know this girl was taking her medicine the way she should have been? Just a bit of food for thought there for all of you Anti-Prozac folk.

Based on a crime and how it is committed depends on how a person will be sentenced juvenile or adult. If these two kids were shooting guns and one shot the other sure that is an accident. This crime is way off the chart for a 15 year old to spend a few years away from home and come back into society as a normal person. Sorry I just don't buy Prozac make her do it, this girl was sick and needed more medical attention then she was getting. She needed a good psychiatrist at a very early age, I don't know but from what I read and seen of her it looks like she also needed a mood-stabilizer.

They shouldnt be getting adult sentences either IMO i'd say at the max 15 years. I think juveniles should be treated as juveniles no matter what their crime or how they commited it.

Judging based on the nature of the crime is irrelevant, for the most part, IMO.

I am no authority on the law but there is relevant-ency to the nature of a crime. Shop lifting carries a different sentencing and legal structure all together as opposed to armed robbery. IMO I don't ever what to live or be around any person that committed a crime like this person did and she is released in 15 years are you kidding?

dui,
You must be a psychiatrist, drug researcher with 30 years of education or at least not able to scroll up to read ALLL's posts. If you don't buy the Prozac issue, then don't. Doesn't make it any less true just because you personally don't buy it. She needed a lot more help than she was getting. Starting with people who actually know what they are doing would have been a good place to start.

I don't want to be attacked like you have done with some of the other people here. You guys can fight between yourselves that's fine. I will debate with you on a friendly bases but your attacking attitude will not do. Medication is needed for mental illness as well as physical illnesses. This girl is a danger to society,locking her up for a few years and someone talking to her a few hours a week is not going to help her with her desire to kill. What makes you such an expert on mental illness and Medication? Are You a MD or Psychiatrist?

ALLL,
To further specify, ritalin and cocaine are grouped in the same category as psychostimulants and have very similar mechanisms. In an article dated 2/2009 link here:
http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/02/03/adhd-drug-ritalin-possibly-addictive/3898.html
numerous studies have shown the negative effects of ritalin on the developing brain can be greater than that of cocaine, it can be addictive and studies have proven that children prescribed ritalin have a greater risk of becoming drug addicts later in life. The studies site similar personality changes occur with ritalin as with cocaine.

shooting up,
Sorry for you loss. It's very sad but it may make you feel somewhat better that in the light of all that has happened, Glaxo has announced in 2010 they are abandoning all research on new antidepressants. The era of drugging up kids with psych meds is over. I just hope more comes out and the victims can get compensation. When a drug company completely abandons a type of drug b/c it is no longer profitable (the liability and risks far outweigh the profit) that says a lot. I am very happy about this and I'm sure there will be more companies getting out b/c my life was almost ruined by Lexapro and I lost my father to psych drugs when I was a kid.

dui,
I don't believe she should be "let go" It's too late for her. But Prozac and other psych meds given to kids have caused numerous of these incidents and that practice should be abandoned. Psych meds help people who are psychotic, they shouldn't be handed out as a first measure to anyone who is "sad" They cause more harm than good, as proven in this case. I have a psychology degree and extensive personal and professional experience with these drugs. I have over 2 dozen personal/professional examples where the drugs have been given and adverse behavioral and mental problems have followed right after.

dui,
There is a huge difference in Alyssa, who cut herself and tried to commit suicide than a kid who says "I hear voices telling me to do things." This murder was 100% preventable and caused by handing out psych meds to kids with little or no monitoring of the effects.

The first step in helping her with her supposed "desire to kill" would be to get her off the Prozac. The desire to kill and do violence is caused by "akathasia" or "activation" a common side effect of antidepressants.

This girl had mental problems before she was taking Prozac. You can call it what ever you want to but she knew what she was doing for God sake she dug two graves a week before she murdered that little girl. There are thousands of adults and children that take medication and they don't go out and murder other people to see what it feels like. You have no idea if this was preventable or not. Know one does, so stop saying that it was. Antidepressants does not make a person into a cold blooded killer.

dui,
I'm not really sure how people can say it was not a drug when the actual way the drugs work on the brain is still unknown. I don't think we'd be having this conversation if she was high on crack or meth when she committed the crime. Here is the most recent information on anti-depressants. Until now it was thought that the mechanism by which they work was an increased level of serotonin. (they thought a decreased level was responsible for depression, but could not really prove it because there is no "generally accepted level" of serotonin, they don't know enough about it and don't measure it for accepted levels like they do HCL, red blood cells, etc.) Recent studies have shown that the lifting of depression symptoms is more related to the effect of SSRI's in causing neurogenesis (new cell growth)in the hypocampus of the brain. The hypocampus has shown to be shrunken in people with depression (a lot of times caused by a trauma, PSTD) and also with alcoholism which is a know CNS depressant and also leads to depression. Serotonin Symdrome is where the body is on high activation, high heart rate, high BP, can eventually lead to hallucinations, psychosis and then death. The "akathasia" and "activiation" (mania) reported with anti-depressants is a state similar to serotonin syndrome although never getting to the full-blown crisis of serotonin syndrome. This mania is what causes all these behavioral problems with the drugs. They will eventually get on the right track and have a drug that increases neurogenesis without these side effects that they can couple with therapy (because new pathways in the brain allowing new thought patterns can lead a person to make the best use of therapy.) But this would require commitment to a long term cure (about 1-2 years) whereas we all want the "quick fix" and get on with our life. That's why anti-depressants have been so widely accepted. Because they make you physically "feel better" very quickly. But people like Alyssa and Elizabeth Olten's family should never pay the price for the mistakes or ignorance of a company who puts out a product that malfunctions frequently. They and all other victims should receive compensation. I would imagine there is a sticker somewhere on the dash of an airplane stating "should only be operated by a trained pilot." Even though every idiot should know that, the manufacturer has to cover their ass. These drugs should only ever have been given out by psychiatrists in an inpatient setting.

"All Truth passes through Three Stages:
First, it is Ridiculed...
Second, it is Violently Opposed...
Third, it is Accepted as being Self-Evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer (1778-1860)

Apparently Glaxo is way ahead of us in accepting reality. And the reason they are getting out of the anti-depressant field is not b/c of generics (which have been around for 30+ years, b/c a new drug keeps it patent for 10 years only and then it is up for grabs by any and all who want to make a generice verison.) It is b/c of all the bad publicity and lawsuits with seroxat.

I believe in austrailia, one case there was a teen murderer sentenced as an adult but he was up for parole after 12 years.

and dui what I mean about judging by the nature of the crime for example, is like how youre putting emphasis on her digging graves a week before, in deciding whether a teen be charged as an adult or not.

so I really dont get why they do it. "eye for eye" cases are everywhere but seem to be mostly in the US and austrailia. we should seek JUSTICE not revenge.

rehabilitation works much better than retribution on young people, and habitual criminals. retribution seems to make them angrier people who act out cause of it. I believe forgivness will be more progressive than revenge.

cox,
OMG there is an intelligent person somewhere out there! Are you actually in the U.S. or in another country? I am in shock that someone actually knows what they are talking about.

I sure your professional diagnoses on this girl is appreciated in determining this kids mental stability to stand trial but the board of phycaritrist and the MD'S that evaluated her disagree with your diagnoses. I and the rest of the country am putting our faith in the hands of the medical and legal system. If you want to thank that for some crazy reason that Prozac made this sicko murdered the brutal way she did, You go right ahead and do that. There is a reason why minors that murder like this are tried as adults. You can't lock them up for 15 years and then let them back into society. Taking her off Prozac will not stop her from killing other people. Your theory is ridiculous and is sending the wrong message to people. I am sure that know one will take you seriously

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. It doesn't look like you read any other news than this site or you would have seen all the crimes committed by people on these drugs and the pharma companies getting nabbed every few weeks for law suits and criminal misconduct fines and the FDA being investigated, all in reference to these drugs. I can see why you don't understand. She should not be evaluated by and M.D., that's just a regular physical doctor. She is/was evaluated by psychiatrists. I did not offer a diagnosis on her since I am not a psychiatrist, I simply stated the well-known side effects and information readily available to all people from news sources on anti-depressants. Go ahead and put your faith in the medical system and pray to God you don't ever need them because they don't have clue one. Don't believe it if you don't want to but it's stone cold truth.

To say that Prozac did not cause this crime is like saying there is no reason to get meth and crack and heroin off the streets because they don't influence behavior.

All medications cause side affects! The MD'S examined her to see if there was something medically that maybe causing her violencant behavior? We are all aware that Antidepressants have side affects we also know that the benefits out way the side effects. Again your Therapy that Prozac caused this murder is ludacris. Glaxo had to stop the production of antidepressants because of the cost involved in the production they no longer an investment the company in short was losing their shirts. They moved on and so should you.

@ rocki: Prozac doesn't make somebody dig two graves and then wait for a moment to kill any unsuspecting person she has an opportunity to. If SSRI's were that dangerous, they'd be listed on the Controlled Substances Act, and they're not. So there's really no comparison to meth or crack or heroin and their effect on your mood/thought process.

How are they not a controlled substance? Can you buy them at CVS without a prescription?

dui:
Glaxo stopped R & D into all anti-depressants because of production costs? I think you need meds. They stopped b/c they are losing their shirts on seroxat with all the lawsuits and with so many other anti-depressants available (because they were over-developed b/c it's so cheap to copy cat them)no doctors are prescribing it. A jury in Phila. Just awarded the parents of Lyam Kilker 2.5 million dollars from Glaxo for seroxat birth defects. Bottom line, you are sticking up for these drugs and denying the obvious for some reason other than what is on this post. Either you are on them or work for them. I'm not going to bother getting into it with you b/c I've been down that road before and there is not point in arguing with a biased person.

wtf:
meth, crack, heroin, psych meds, alcohol, all the same = mind-altering substances. (they just differ in the degree and mechanism of altering the mind.)

Hey, don't argue with me about it. They're not listed on the U.S. Controlled Substances Act; that's a fact, not an opinion. Many prescription drugs aren't listed on there. That doesn't mean they don't pose adverse effects, but it does mean that they're not a danger to people in the way that heroin, crack and/or meth are, which you so callously compared to SSRI's. They're not even close to the same thing. If their potential for causing dangerous behavior was as great as you say, the FDA and DEA would likely place them on there, but they would still only be a schedule IV or V. That's a pretty big difference from the schedule I and II drugs.

@ rocki: it's pretty obvious that you're the biased one here. Lots of medications can cause birth defects, such as Thalomid and Accutane, neither of which are antidepressants. And how do you think they found out those drugs cause birth defects? By someone taking them while pregnant and giving birth to a deformed baby maybe? Psychiatric medications are not mind-altering in even close to the same way that hard drugs and alcohol are. To even say that proves you have no clue what you're talking about. SSRI's effect the seratonin levels in your brain. They don't tend to effect your thought process unless you're experiencing an adverse effect; something less than 10% of people who take these medications experience.

If Prozac is at all to blame here, I'd say it's for not preventing her from doing this, not causing her to.

I'm not going to argue with you about the controlled substance deal, I know nothing about that, but they are mind-altering substances just the same and since you mention how I "callously" put them in the same category and state that the FDA (the FDA is a joke at best, totally corrupt at worst) would do something about this to protect the public, here's a little history of the government and corporate decisions and attitudes on asbestos (copied from wikipedia)

In 1942, an internal Owens-Corning corporate memo referred to "medical literature on asbestosis.... scores of publications in which the lung and skin hazards of asbestos are discussed."[40] Either in 1942 or 1943, the president of Johns-Manville, Lewis H. Brown, said that the managers of another asbestos company were "a bunch of fools for notifying employees who had asbestosis." When one of the managers asked, "do you mean to tell me you would let them work until they dropped dead?" the response is reported to have been, "Yes. We save a lot of money that way." In 1944, a Metropolitan Life Insurance Company report found 42 cases of asbestosis among 195 asbestos miners.

In 1951, asbestos companies removed all references to cancer before allowing publication of research they sponsored.[43] In 1952, Dr. Kenneth Smith, Johns-Manville medical director, recommended (unsuccessfully) that warning labels be attached to products containing asbestos. Later, Smith testified: "It was a business decision as far as I could understand...the corporation is in business to provide jobs for people and make money for stockholders and they had to take into consideration the effects of everything they did and if the application of a caution label identifying a product as hazardous would cut into sales, there would be serious financial implications."[44] In 1953, National Gypsum's safety director wrote to the Indiana Division of Industrial Hygiene, recommending that acoustic plaster mixers wear respirators "because of the asbestos used in the product." Another company official noted that the letter was "full of dynamite" and urged that it be retrieved before reaching its destination. A memo in the files noted that the company "succeeded in stopping" the letter, which "will be modified." Through the 1970s, asbestos was used to fireproof roofing and flooring, for heat insulation, and for a variety of other purposes.

It wasn't until 1989 that the EPA issued a ban on the use of asbestos. 50 YEARS LATER! There is still asbestos insulation and lead in the water in DC Schools.

I'm sorry...I really don't care enough to read some essay you took the time to copy and paste. I'm out.

Of course you don't b/c the proof is right above.

Nah, it's more like I genuinely am not interested in this debate/argument whatever you wanna call it. I know all about asbestos. That has nothing to do with antidepressants and i'm not interested in arguing about the integrity of the FDA.

Just for the record Glaxo sales went from 14% to 2.3% last year they can not compete with the other companies that supply the generic antidepressants. They will not longer be investing into the study of antidepressant's like Paxil. They are by no means stopping their business. They are all over the world. The UK is producing antidepressants at a much cheaper price. You keep saying your not going to fight with anyone anymore that's all you do. Antidepressants are not a narcotic! They are not the same as meth and the other stimulates you are suggesting.WTF is right ONLY 10% of all people experiance side effects from these drugs.

It's weird; after reading this story again, the first person to pop into my head was Edmund Kemper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Kemper (for the record, he was not on antidepressants when he decided he "wanted to know what it felt like to kill grandma.")

There's no way this girl should ever get out. She'll just kill again.

I don't like to be rude but there are a lot of people on some of these stories that are crazy. Not naming names but the 5th one up is a little out to lunch. I agree with both you and WTF this girl will be behind bars for the rest of her life.

I think rocki is a scientologist.

I'm not going to comment on rocki, but I definitely think this girl is a sociopath, and there's really no helping a sociopath. Maybe she had a fucked up life, but that's no excuse to plot and carry out the murder of a completely innocent human being. I think there's a big difference between a temporary lapse in sanity and a person actually plotting to kill, digging graves, etc. And who knows who could have been next?

Agree

dui,
I'm not fighting with anyone or attacking them personally, as you all are attacking me saying I am out to lunch, etc.

First of all, I didn't say that "mental illness" was an "excuse" to kill anyone and that Alyssa should ever be let out on mental institution/prison. At this point she is a considerable unknown and has already proved that she is not responsible to be around others. The factors involved in this crime are many and it is highly unlikely that 1.) the pharmaceutical company, or 2.) the doctors and social worker treating Alyssa prior to this event will take any responsibility for any causal actions that may have contributed.

I said that Prozac was the cause of this behavior, which is the most likely scenario based on what we know about mind altering substances. I said mind-altering substances are all just that "mind-altering substances" they differ in mechanism and dosage between illegal, legal drugs and alcohol but they all produce effects on behavior. If you disagree with that, then why do we care about drugs in the first place? If they don't have an effect on behavior, there should be not problem.

The FDA? That one speaks for itself, I'm not even going to address that stupidity. If something is approved by the FDA, it should be regarded with a high amount of suspicion at this time.

Glaxo. You have incorrect information. They are stopping "research into new anti-depressants" not stopping production of the old ones. Two entirely different things.

As for Kemper,
He was a text book serial killer, first killing abusive relatives, tormenting animals and interested in necrophilia. He started his serial killing spree in his mid-twenties. (Years after being let out) The doctors were complete idiots to let him out of the mental institution. He is basically a Jeffrey Dahmer. Alyssa is not comparable to these people (mostly be the fact that she is female.) Although there have been female serial killers, they never start out like the males. Female serial killers usually kill their own children or men for money. Two entirely different types of killers.

As far as giving psychotropics to children:
We all know the term "fetal alcohol syndrome" We would think it's the most horrific form of child abuse to give a child 3-4 alcoholic drinks per day staring at age 11, right? We would have basic medical proof that it would cause harm. Yet, all the SSRI's are implicated in birth defects as is alcohol but we think it's OK to give them to children with undeveloped hearts and lungs and brains for long term use? Because a doctor prescribed it? There are NO studies about the effects of long term use of anti-depressants on adults OR children. The doctor knows know more than the patient about the safety of that.

The FDA? Ha. What a total joke.
The FDA requires a certain number of studies conducted under certain required circumstances be submitted showing a required result but the pharmaceuticals get to pick which ones. They could have 10 studies showing positive results and 70 terminated for adverse events and negative results and submit the 10 positive studies, no questions asked.

That's like if banks required you to submit 25 documents regarding your financial status (but you get to choose which ones) and there is no such thing as a credit check or employment verification. Everyone would get a loan, at least for awhile.

If this girl knew the Lord she would never have entertained these evil thoughts.How scary is it that we live in such a place where people think about killing their neighbor (or neighbors child)and actually go through with it just for kicks.The sad spiritual state we are in is so horrible.Back to basics people,think about it did you hear of such things in the 40's & 50's?Love is the key LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Amy Archer-Gilligan
Elizabeth Báthory
Gwendolyn Graham and Catherine Wood
Judith Neelley

All female serial killers who were not considered "black windows," and did not display signs of Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy.

From the Encyclopedia of Serial Killers:

26% of serial killers kill for the first time while in their teens. Serial killers are recidivists by definition, and the tiny number of successful paroles in such cases--four of 1,500-plus offenders released to date without (apparently) killing again--is a telling argument against the view that "anyone can be reformed."

There is also nothing to say that Kemper's grandparents, his first victims, were abusive. So, no, he didn't start with abusive family members.

And I didn't include any "black widows," but they almost never kill for the money. They just have more opportunities to kill men, like Vera Renczi.

And I've told you more than once that I don't think antidepressants should be given to children either, however, I don't think that when a child is on them and does something stupid or violent that the medication is necessarily to blame. Just because something COULD happen, doesn't mean it will or does. And the psychs who evaluated her, if they said it was the medication, that would be ALL over the media. There have been stories of kids killing their parents because they were on Paxil and they got a lighter sentence or let off. The entire field of psychiatry knows the risks, and that's why children and even adults who are prescribed SSRI's are very closely monitored. You need to get a grip on reality and stop blaming everything on antidepressants. We told you weeks ago that it's old, and I'm still not seeing anyone here agree with you, but you still keep yip-yappin' away.

Kiki -- All this stuff has been happening forever, including the 40' and the 50's.

Here's just one story from the 1920's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Franks

We can argue this topic until the cows come home. You may not like it Rocky but children can and are depressed, some kids are even clinically depressed. These kids need help. When all else fails antidepressants have to be called in to give it a try they may or may not work. You have said that doctors are giving this stuff out like candy. The doctors you go to but none that I have ever gone to do that. Lets just say that the medical foundation that I know of the adult garden of their child tries everything else before Doctor will consider putting the child on antidepressants. That is not just here at this Foundation that is the way that the Foundations that I know of work. Bottom Line is that Alysia was going to murder someone anyone regardless to what Medications she was taking or was not taking.

dui,mcr,
Yes. You are correct. We can argue until the cows come home, but in the end, a mind-altering substance, Prozac, caused this. End of story.

I have been to several different stories and comments. What is with this rocki character using this as a forum to excuse people from killing? Someone that deep into a topic usually has a personal reason. What is it? Did you commit some kind of crime while taking antidepressants? Hmmm? Murder the hubby perhaps and used Prozac as your defense? I mean come on person, you can't sincerely believe that every crime commited is somehow relation to antidepresants? Oh btw you gave yourself away when You posted as 'smokes massive crack' ,you got THAT right!

I totally agree with the prozac cause. the studies, documented cases, testomonies and crimes. im convinced that played the part in this crime. i don't think alyssa should get life, i say til she's 26 or 27. other youth murderers have been sentenced as juveniles and have gone on to live normal lives.
rehab, councelling, and kindness is the way to turn around potential serial killers and it can especially be done at this young age. we should also focus on, better education (curriculum is horrible), health and phsycological education, planned parenthood, free college education, social services, this will all help prevent crime.

illusionS Rocki is still chasing the cows. I feel sorry for her.

This is rocki's reason for not liking antidepressants. I'm pretty sure about 95% of what's written here never happened because it doesn't make sense that 6 or 7 health care providers would simultaneously prescribe her drugs, or even in succession like that really. But just play along...

"The reason I am against these is b/c I was given many drugs and almost ruined my life and was told I would need to be on them permanently. Unfortunately, I told each health-care provider (about 6 or 7 in total) the same story and all they did was give me medication. What was the real culprit is how I became depressed was from incorrect thinking patterns. I backed myself into a corner and could no longer function. When I was 13, my father killed himself after I had an argument with him. I then developed anorexia and after that bulimia. Then I was a heavy drinker. I lived for 20 years without incident. My depression started, when, 20 years later, my mother-in-law died. I would wake up like I had been shocked with electricity and think "she's dead." Like PSTD. Then my dog I had for 15 years died. Then my grandmother died. Then my father-in-law died. The truth of the matter is that I perceived that I had caused my father's death and when these other people started dying, I felt that was my punishment for whatever I was doing wrong. So of course I tried to figure out what I was doing wrong (but since that didn't exist, I was never going to find it.) So my thinking patterns broke down and I was totally confused, depressed and anxious. All the drugs they gave me caused full blown mania for over six months because my depression had nothing to do with chemical imbalance, as they would like to believe. Not one of these so-called professionals ever questioned the drugs, even though the only problems in my behavior had occurred while on the drugs."

Oh and emi isn't a real person. That's rocki trying to make it seem like someone agrees with her. She has to resort to that since no one in their right mind think she's right.

some people on here are morons, this girl is not a "sociopath" she was drugged and experienced very negative side-effects obviously. and so what if she was, they can be rehabilitated and live normal lives.

emo -- I don't need two people who have no clue what they're talking about arguing with me. That is assuming you're not rocki with another one of her names, but I find it interesting that out of nowhere, someone agrees with rocki just happened to show up. So...the jig is up, rocki. Knock it off. Grow up.

I meant "emi" btw, but then had a flashback to the lameness of emo's in high school and subconsciously hit "o."

@ mcr So I will confess that I know alllll about rocki cause I am Eastern Shore Girlie. I have been experimenting with different names so if ole rocki wants to clone this one she can have it. I am resourceful and creative enouph to create a new one long as I still get to keep reading and posting on this site I won't let rocki steal my sunshine. Furthermore I just wanted to point out on SEVERAL of these threads she has 3 and 4 characters all "agreeing" with her. Aside from stealing my other name she makes up whole dialogue's is INSANE. And thanks for telling me what her beef is with the pill issue though I still think she gave vague reasoning she is obviously manic in ALOT of ways! I don't think they have found the right medication for her yet, but she is really wayyyy out there.

She's actually getting kind of scary at this point. I'm not even saying that to be mean, rocki...I'm really not. The multiple names; the attacking on every page; the constant obsession with antidepressants...it's just really creepy at this point. Like she's going to be the next Joe Stack flying a plane into a Pfizer building or something.

I also agree with wtf on their speculation that maybe rocki is a Scientologist.

@ mcr I have wanted to say that several times. For one she sounds to much like Tom cruise tripping on Matt LAuer that I want so badly to believe this is someone putting on. Then I pick up other posts defending hers or adding to them with three and four other names. Yet very distinct typing traits. All the same ranting and raving as if she has actually disguised herself. I would like to be ES girlie soon but can't really cause it makes me an easy target for her. BElieve me at this point the last thing I want is rocki speaking for ME while posting with my name!

iLLusionS -- Yeah, it's always the ones who need the medication the most who fight it so hard.

Rocki sounds just about right to me and no I am not that person but w/e. Literally? There are millions of people out there.

Pete Kotz said:

C'mon, ladies. We love having you here, but let's not start getting personal in the fighting again. There's room enough for everyone to have their say.

I think rocki should be banned. She only comes here to start trouble while the rest of us are giving honest opinions relative to the stories. She's a pest.

Pete Kotz said:

Naah, we don't want to ban Rocki. She's been around for a long time. You just gotta ignore stuff you don't like, but there's room for everyone here.

Okay while you guys sort that out I ask you pete why you baned my post on Andrew wirth on another topic, please reply.

You know full well what it meant, rocki. It's called a typographical error. Everyone makes them and I didn't catch it. Sometimes that happens when I have a giant book sitting across my keyboard (Encyclopedia of Serial Killers). You probably wouldn't know, though, since you've likely never opened a book.

anon: Successful troll is successful. Also, props to the newfag that used the word "trolling" while getting trolled. Epic.

Recent brain research scientifically affirms that the brains of adolescents are less developed and physiologically different from adults, with adolescents reacting more in their impulse area to stress and adults reacting more in their cognitive area. The brains of teenagers lack in cognitive ability and development in critical areas related to reasoning, decision making, judgment, and empathy. They use much less of their pre-frontal cortex relying more on the lower part of the brain associated with emotions, impulses, and gut responses, whereas adults use more of the cognitive and reasoning area. Teenagers also have a weaker future orientation and focus on the immediate and may have deficits in their temperance, limiting impulsive behavior and evaluating cause/effect relationships and consequences before acting.

Despite a global and scientific consensus that juveniles cannot be held to the same standards of responsibility and that they are entitled to special treatment, the United States allows them to be treated and punished as adults. The Unitied States has not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and other treaties which put an emphasis on rehabilitation. Do you people realize it should not be accessible for a minor to be tried as an adult and this girl would be free within 12 years no ifs, ands or buts about it. The judicial system is just an archaic version based on vengeance and emotion.

The evidence from scientific, legal, and psychological communities shows that treating teens as adults makes no sense.

Canada's Conservative Leader Stephen Harper's "get tough doomed-to-failure American Republican-style of justice" as dismissed by the Bloc Quebe-cois, has received plenty of criticism with criminologists warning it could create more violent crime. Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe also decried the plan. "This is the Republican way of the United States, more people in prison, more arms in circulation, I don't want to live in that society." Of the developed countries the US has the highest percentage of its population imprisoned. Yet the crime rate in the US is much higher than most other developed countries.

Slapping young people with harsher sentences does not reduce crime just as it has failed to in the U.S. "It's the wrong approach," Stéphane Dion said and strategies of Liberal governments will bring crime rates lower. When it comes to creating a safe society, the youth justice system has a relatively small role to play. The truth is imprisonment is criminogenic, incarcerating juvenile offenders with adult criminals has been shown to be counterproductive in the manner they have a tendancy to evolve into criminals and reoffend when released. This is because they are transferred into a system that precludes a rehabilitative response. Desicions made pertaining to young people can still influence the course of development to the extent malleability.

The frontal lobe is responsible for cognitive processes like judgment, reasoning, planning and simply is not completely matured in adolescents nor is the ability to preceive the many and long-term outcomes of particular choices. The U.S justice system needs to refine and neglect the practice of expending and convicting underage offenders as adults. We should EDUCATE and REFORM.

Let's take a look at how these select few countries do it when it comes to homicide..

In the Netherlands, most prisoners receive sentences of around 12 to 16 years. The sentence is rarely longer than 16 years.
In Norway, the maximum penalty is 21 years imprisonment, but only a small percentage of prisoners serve more than 14 years. Prisoners will typically get parole for weekends etc. after serving two thirds of their sentence (a maximum of 7 years) they can receive early release after serving that.
In Italy, after 10 years (8 in case of good behavior) the prisoner may be given permission to work outside the prison and spend up to 45 days a year at home, and after 26 (or 21 in case of good behavior) years, they may be paroled.

In most cases, many countries do not sentence life for adult criminals and the U.S does this to CHILDREN? They can ATLEAST give them a possible parole after 15-25 years?

Let's see how some of them do it for children..

In Swedan, offenders under the age of 21 can be sentenced to a maximum of 14 years, and 8 years under 18.
In Switzerland, the maximum sentence is 4 years for an offender under 18.
In Germany, the maximum length is 10 years (under age of 18)
In Finland, the penalty for an offender under 18 is 7-15 years.

The U.N. Committee has confirmed that the United States is violating its legal obligations whenever a juvenile offender is given life without parole.

cox,

That's very interesting. How do we make US citizens aware of that fact that we are violating the UN Treaty? How many letters do we need to write to the newspapers? How man volunteers do we need?

Wow, cox,
OK, you are smarter than anyone on this site (and I'm going to blasted for this by mcr) but where did you find that information? Please post it. As pathetically politically correct as we are, we are doomed to victory on this one. Seriously, how do we inform US Citizens we are in violation of the UN Treaty with that one?

Rocki,

As long as you're not going after me or anyone else, I don't care what you say.

Thorough education, health, welfare, social services and programs are what get you a safe society, not the criminal justice system. Wouldnt the former be best for everyone? Would it be more expensive than incarcerating all these criminals? I dont know.

What I do know is that I have doubts about 'mcr''s information. What I found is that, despite generally held views, murder accounts for the lowest recidivism rates, and reviews of what shes supposedly getting this crap from reveals several flaws.

The United States Department of Justice tracked former inmates after their release from prisons in 15 states in 1994. Findings include: 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had commited murder were arrested for murder.

A random sample of 336 of four type of homicide offenders in the US who were released between the years 1990 and 2000 were identified and tracked for a minimum of 5 years to determine if incarcerated homicide offenders who had no criminal histories prior to their homicide conviction recidivated less, and which specific variables correlated with recidivism. In conclusion, none of the 336 homicide offenders committed another murder.

Not to say recidivism doesnt happen, and there are those who probably shouldnt be paroled, but its also a risk a civil society must take. I suggest we work toward lowering recidivism rates by reforming and help re-integration by supporting and rehabilitating and teaching them social skills. The New York City jail system has made efforts to reduce recidivism rates for various offenses and it is shown that inmates who go through rehab programs have significantly lower rates of recidivism. The US justice systems focus is punishment, deterrence and responsibility, while the European's is education and rehabilitation and it's lower recidivism rate is attribited to that.

Notably, Arnfinn Nesset who was accused of murdering 27 people in europe, was released after serving 21 years in prison and is now living a new life.

Also, check this dude out.. the '07 school shooter from Finland he had also been taking SSRIs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen#The_perpetrator

I use to dig holes in the woods behind my house all the time, does that make me a serial killer?

If you're putting bodies in those holes, then yeah, it does. And I was talking about serial killers. Not all people convicted of murder. If you want to live in a country where sociopaths are allowed to walk the streets, no one's stopping you. I gave my source. Look it up.

Did you even read this sentence: "Serial killers are recidivists by definition"??? Because they are. That's what makes them serial killers.

Mrc, forget it! This is another of, "I said so, just because I can type long drawn out sentences repeating the same old stuff.” The brain is developed by the age of adolescence; However the average age of maturity of development is 25 years of age. That's the Bottom line. Lets just take a few cases recently. #1 10 children and young men rapping and beating a 15 year old girl on school grounds in public in front of 100's of people walking by. #2 Alyssa we know her crime. #3 The 16 year old , A student walking home from school pushed into a crowd of punks and beating in broad day-light to death. The poor boy didn't even know what hit him. #4 Here where I live 3 punks saw 2 boys 14, 15 years old walking home from the store at 5:20 pm the 3 punks jumped out of the car and stabbed both kids in the back one died the other kid is in a wheel-chair for the rest of his life. And you people are telling the rest of us they are children? These kids need help for a little while so that they can live and get back into society. Put these miss guided children in with other children until they are 21-25 years old? Who takes care of the other innocent children where these (miss understood kids are being locked up at) kids will all be locked up together at? Will you people volunteer to be their correctional officers and protect the other children? When their released are you people going to protect the public from them? I don't want these animals living next to me or my family members. If you love and care for them so much you can write to the judges hearing their cases and ask the judges to move these miss guided children next door to you people so you can look after these poor PROZAC taking children. All these kids murdered other people because Doctor's proscribed them PROZAC …........

I also like how rocki aka jane wilder mentioned up there that there are no examples of child murderers not taking antidepressants because that's never happened or something...lol...wow. She certainly erased a lot of notorious murders committed by children in the past, and even now, where there were absolutely no psychiatric drugs involved whatsoever.

You have more a chance of being murdered in america than in most countries that "allow sociopaths walk the streets". America has a higher homicide rate and creates more street walking sociopaths than most of these countries that allow them to.(though the uk is pretty up there) What can I say, go LIBERALISM?

Sandy, you raise some interesting points there. All I can say is that America isnt a mature enough society to handle these things properly. All I can say is that America needs to get its shit together and ban putting children on trial.

Emi,
I love America and I have said it more than once I am liberal; But some of this crap in this country has got to come to an end. In my Opinion we have to stop being so soft on criminals. Regardless to age let the punishment fit the crime. We need to use the death penalty more in this country. Don't wait 20 years to put someone to death for their crime, tax payers don't need the bill. Setting on death row for 20 years is ridiculous. One trial, One appeal that's it.
Mcr, This crap about children and Prozac causing murders is just stupid. Look up children killers the history goes back to the 1700's horrible crimes. Were these Miss understood children on PROZAC to? Two girls in 1920's wanted to see what it felt like to kill someone " who does that sound like?" grabbed a 2 year old little boy and throw him off a water tower. I can't remember the date 1700-1800's a serial killer kid dismembered his victims. Was he depressed? He didn't come from a bad home, he was royalty and I know he wasn't on PROZAC.

PLANNED PARENTHOOD EDUCATION will also reduce crime.. WHY take a child from less-than-fit parents and put them in the care of the people who messed the parents up in the first place! I am sorry but a Young adolescent is entirely dependent on the enviornment and if They commit a serious crime, they are a victim of Circumstances. If a child has family problems or has been neglected, abused, or molested they will more easily Commit a crime. You have some conditions where a Childs temperament or irritability does not fit well with it. Either way a Young persons mind is still gaining and changing and developing new mental processes, The difference between an adolescents and an adults mind is greatened in children who has these problems. We should look at neurobiological research that shows parts of the brain are still Immature and this also gives them more room for change and rehabilitation. Some people are damaged beyound repair this should be decided by mental Health professionals but many people even with a scarred psyche can change. There is no excuse but where is all the hate coming from toward these young adolescents who are not even old enough to know who they are and what this world is about or even have firm senses of right and wrong or of ther actions? It is ther upbringing, and life, or lack of, experience that is influential and responsible at this age.

Sandy, you're preaching to the choir. I would never blame everything a kid does on antidepressants. I have common sense. :)

Mcr, I didn't mean that towards you, I'm agreeing with you. Talking back and forth showing examples of kids that were murderers before all the antidepressant grabage. Sorry I should have explained it better to you. Blame the parents, environment, schools, Prozac, the weather, the toys kids played with as babies, etc....Everything but the problem these kids are killing people.

Brain researchers firmly believe that violence is clearly the product of chemical interactions in the brain, and that physiology and the environment are interconnected. Each factor modifies the other processing a situation or a particular type of stimulation or overload in the brain toward the end of a violent resolution. In the words of Debra Niehof, a neuroscientist, "The biggest lesson we have learned from brain research is that violence is the result of a developmental process, an interaction between the brain and the environment." Both enviornmental and genetic factors are thought to get a share of the blame, the brain however is flexible and can relearn new patterns.

Many people on anti-depressants complain of negatice side-effects, suicidal and homicidal thoughts, intruding thoughts of violence, detachment, loss of control over thought process, maybe this what alyssa expeirances? If we take this a little further, maybe these meds can create the same chemical imbalence of kids who've killed expeiranced or that of a dysfunctional childhood can cause?

Everyone's brain works differently and no one is raised exactly or has the same life experiences. For many adolescents is an awkward and confusing time and as many have pointed out the brain is developing which can further blur things. The source of alyssa's depression sounds like it was her family, she probably shouldn't have been taking a chemical because it probably contributed to an imbalence and this crime. Not excusing, just raising a point.

For those who don't buy that psychiatric drugs can alter thoughts and behaviour and cause violence here is a site that has examples: http://www.uhuh.com/education/drugskill.htm

From the site
"Psychotic episodes and violent behavior are associated with chronic Ritalin abuse. Ritalin is the amphetamine-like drug widely prescribed to children for the contrived mental disease, "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder" (ADHD). Even Ritalin's manufacturer warns that "frank psychotic episodes can occur" with abusive use. And even the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders lists the major complication of Ritalin withdrawal is suicide.

Between 1988 and 1992, in just four years, there were reports of over 90 children and adolescents who had suffered suicidal or violent self-destructive behavior while on the newer antidepressant, Prozac, an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor.) The Food and Drug Administration's own Adverse Drug Reaction reports reveal that a 12-year-old suffered hostility, confusion, was violent and became "glassy-eyed" on the drug; an 18-year-old was hospitalized after being on the drug for 270 days and had reportedly sexually assaulted and stabbed a store clerk; one 16-year-old who had been on Prozac for 50 days, reported hostility, psychotic depression and hallucinations when there had been no prior psychiatric history.

Since the 1960s, the use of these drugs has been on a massive increase, especially since the introduction of Community Mental Health Centers (CMHCs). The following are just a small sample of studies showing the violence-inducing nature of these powerful mind-altering drugs:

The New York Post reported on January 31, 1999, that they had obtained documents (through Freedom of Information Law) that the New York Psychiatric Institute was testing Prozac on 6-year-olds. The documents obtained by the Post showed that under these drug trials the psychiatric researchers own documents noted that "Some patients have been reported to have an increase in suicidal thoughts and/or violent behavior." Another side effect--wild manic episodes--was also acknowledged in the researchers' records.

A 1995 Nordic conference reported that the new antidepressant drugs, in particular, have a stimulating amphetamine-like effect and consumers of these drugs can become "aggressive" or "suffer hallucinations and/or suicidal thoughts."

1998 British report said that at least five percent of patients taking SSRI's (an antidepressant) suffered "commonly recognized" side effects which includes agitation, anxiety and nervousness. Other regularly reported effects include confusion, abnormal dreaming and nightmares. Around five percent of the reports also indicate aggression, hallucinations, malaise and depersonalization. SSRIs "can cause a broad spectrum of psychiatric and neurological side effects, resulting in over-stimulation in some cases and sedation in others," the report stated.

In 1995, nine Australian psychiatrists urged SSRIs be sold with a warning after patients had slashed themselves or became preoccupied with violence when taking them. "I didn't want to die, I just felt like tearing my flesh to pieces," one patient told them. Another said, "I got my cane cutters' knife in my right hand and wanted to cut my left hand off at the wrist." The self destructive harm started after the treatment began or doses increased and eased, or ceased when the drugs were stopped.

In 1970 a textbook on the side effects of psychiatric drugs pointed out the potential for violence from these drugs stating, "Indeed, even acts of violence such as murder and suicide have been attributed to the rage reactions induced by chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and diazepam (Valium)."

And a 1985 investigation into Xanax, reported in the American Journal of Psychiatry, claimed that more than half (58 percent) of the treated patients experienced serious "dyscontrol", i.e. violence and loss of control compared with only eight percent who were given a placebo.

Another, who had been given these drugs for five days experienced "an upsurge in hallucinations, screaming, even more bizarre thinking, aggressive and also self- destructive outbursts, and agitated pacing or dancing." While still another stated that while on the drug she felt hostile and hated everybody and heard voices taunting her.

In 1986, a study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry found that patients taking the drug Elavil, an antidepressant, "... appeared progressively more hostile, irritable, and behaviorally impulsive.... The increase in demanding behavior and assaultive acts was statistically significant."

A 1988 study documented the tendency of the major tranquilizer Haldol to increase hostile and violent behavior. According to the study, many persons who had no history of violence prior to being placed on the drug "were significantly more violent on haloperidol (Haldol)". In this study, the researchers attributedthe marked increase in violence to akathisia.

A report published in The Journal of the American Medical Association exemplified the agitation which can accompany akathisia. Describing a man who had started taking Haldol four days previously, the researcher noted that the man "...became uncontrollably agitated, could not sit still, and paced for several hours."

After complaining of violent urges to assault anyone near him, the man assaulted and tried to kill his dog.

Another article published in the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry in 1985 described five cases of "extreme acts of physical violence" due to akathisia caused by Haldol. These cases included acts of extreme, senseless, bizarre and brutal violence.

A teenager who was prescribed minor tranquilizers and antidepressants said that while withdrawing from these drugs, she had violent thoughts and had to restrain her aggressiveness, including wanting to stab anyone who withheld the decreasing drug dosage from her: "I had absolutely no history of violence. These new feelings were not part of the so-called 'mental illness' I was suppose to have; I had never been aggressive before being prescribed the drugs.

In 1995, medical study reported the following withdrawal symptoms from psychotropic drug dependence: "Emotional changes: Fear, terror, panic, fear of insanity, failing self-confidence, restlessness, irritability, aggression, an urge to destroy and, in the worst cases, an urge to kill.

But even more startling, is that normal children are becoming murderers, with the aide of psychiatric drugs, treatments and programs.

Psychiatric drugs can cause violence; they can kill. These are facts that psychiatrists and the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) are not comfortable with. Psychiatrists for obvious reasons-- they could and should be held liable for a crime committed by their drugged out patients -- and NAMI because it "is awash in money from drug companies" -- $3.2 million per year from nine such companies -- that manufacturer these often crippling drugs.

Every time a child commits an act of senseless violence, kills or commits a violent act, the first question that must be asked is what psychiatric mind-altering drugs was the child on? Who was the psychiatrist treating the child? If the child was not on psychiatric drugs at the time of the killing, when was he last on psychiatric drugs?"

Sandy,
you already admitted to being CC and followers of mcr (known to be high on anti-depressants) do don't fill up this site with BS, I must go, b/c I think your kind has already infiltrated my house, someone has put a sticker on my dog, I may need to institute some rubber hoses, still thinking, what do you think, jadensmokes and Bill Mancock?

Yes, SSRIs have a known side-effect of homicidal ideation. And actually, paroled murderers have a very low recivism rate. It's no suprise to me that America is the only country that sentences youth so harshly and treats them as adults. If she'd have been in Italy she's be under the care of adults and would be freed in her 20's.
Oh, and in the case of kemper he obviously should'nt have been with his abusive, mentally ill mother seems like it fuled his madness. Totally different story.

In America we leave them in the cold hands of grown-up court who only see snapshot. Surely, a human, any human, even one who's commited murder, is worth more than a time of day? If we disagree what type of example would we be setting, except for one through the oxymoron of hypocrisy? We do not qualify as animals.
I find it amusing people taking her stated hobbie so seriously just because she just happened to kill a girl. some joke of the like, it's supposed to be funny i guess.

Jane, I am not my daughter you can think as you wish. Do not tell me what to do regardless to who you think you are. As to Mcr I think she is a smart girl. You have your opinion about antidepressants and I have mine as others have their opinions. That's to bad that we all don't agree. Bill Mancock? This asshole has got to be Seth or Justin or maybe just another sicko. jadensmokes not sure about this lady she has never responded to my comments. I take antidepressants and they saved my life. I HAVE worked with kids up to 18 years old. In my early 20's I worked with youth offenders at Y..a county Probation Dept. many of these kids worked with psychiatrist and counselors and put on medications. I never had a case were one of my kids went out and murdered someone. Fight, pull a knife, hit someone over the head with a bottle, never murder. These kids came from shit that you only read about kinda like on this website, but I saw it I went to their homes and if they were in school I went there. Girls raped by brothers, uncles, fathers, pimped out by family members to bring in money for drugs. I could go on and on. Abuse and excuses does not give a person of any age a free ticket to excuse the ONE BIG MISTAKE THEY MAKE IN THEIR LIFE. It doesn't work that way. Hope your dog is Okay.

The elephant in the room that some of you miss is that people can clearly experience different and strange side-effects from taking psychiatric drugs. If alyssa's depression subsided while on them, what affect could they have on a her mind? How they could have effected her mind over the long period of time she was on them? Everyone's brain is differently and can be affected differently.

I don't think anyone is excusing what happened, but she is still just a kid and not of sound judgment.

Well thank you you rocki, honestly. Juvenile life without parole is banned by a U.N treaty the US has signed. There are over 2,500 youth offenders serving life without parole on Earth right now and all of them are in the United States.

I think the courts should acknowledge that a young person is different from an adult and should be treated as so. Its clear from research and mri scans that its not til the 20s the grey matter is finished developing and so its not just to treat them as fully formed adults.

I tend not to believe everyone over the internet. but just to raise the obvious about conditions, some are to a degree that they hinder and others are just right as a set flame. and also some are more susceptible than others. figure that one out yourself.

It saddens me how everyone is an expert on children and antidepressants, yet these alleged experts have never worked with children or antidepressants. You can try and figure that one out for yourself if you want to. I Rather dought it considering you have never worked with troubled kids or the medication. No Doctor just gave Alyssa antidepressants and said, " THERE YOU GO, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN." In order to get the refills on her medication she would have to see the doctor on a regular basis that's a fact!!!!
There is no cookbook technique for the treatment of depression in children. Treatment must be tailored to the needs and schedule of the child and his family. With mild to moderate depression, first psychotherapy and then adds antidepressant if the therapy is not enough improvement. If it is a severe depression, or there is serious acting out, medication is started at the beginning of the treatment.
It is important that parents find a child psychiatrist to evaluate and treat their depressed child. This is done with the Parents,the Child and the recommendation of the treating medical provider.

Now that this young woman is being tried as an adult she can do something with her life. Get an education and get help for herself. Society won't have to worry about her hurting anymore of our little children. With some time and soul searching someday she could reach out to kids that are going down the same path as she was and education those children as to where they will end up. At a dead end road.

Of course youths should be held accountable but they should be differently than adults. Course there needs to be consequences but those should be paid in a rehabilitation center our methods probably need improvment. There will be those who wont rehabilitate, but those should'nt be held against the many that will be able to appreciate it.

Yes emi, I agree there are those youths that can not be rehabilitated and they are the one's that commit the crimes that are tried as adults. A person under the age of 18 and their crime does not meet the 10 definitions of 42 states criteria for a person under the age of 18 to be tried as and adult should go to juvenile hall and rehabilitated. The comment just above mine quotes “2500 youth in prison without possibility of parole.” The problem is, They did not mention that 2/3 of the youths in prison are in for 1st degree murder and the remaining 1/4 helped carry out the 1st degree murders.

Periods of psychiatric treatment and long stays in mental hospitals are suspected to actually predispose more craziness in some people. I don't know, they need to modify the techniques. rehab in general seems to me it would be more successful. Most places in Europe have had low crime, though currently some places are seeing a rise hopefully a yob that'll decline.

Intentional homicide rates per 100,000 population in 2004

North America: 6.5
West and Central Europe: 1.5

Intentional homicide rate as of most recent: (from wiki)
Norway: 0.71; Denmark: 0.88; Germany: 0.88; Swedan: 0.89; Neatherlands: 0.91; Poland: 1.2 France: 1.59; Canada: 1.83; UK: 2.03; United States: 5.4

I really should give the U.S some credit though because that piddly 5.4 is in no comparison to Russia's 14.9! What is going on there?

have never heard a mental hospitals causing a person to((("actually predispose more craziness in some people.?")))) There is voluntary hospitalization and involuntary hospitalization. When a person volunteers to be admitted to a hospital they can check themselves out any time them wish. Involuntary hospitalization 51/50 a patient is evaluated for 72 hours by a psychiatrist and than a team of psychiatrist and the next of kin. All the parties get together and decide what the next step will be for the patient. These Hospital that you are referring to treat the brain; Just like if a person was sick or injured, the patient goes to the hospital to be treated and cured. You are suggesting that a psychiatric Hospital is a place were once the door is closed and the patients are locked away from the public, (wild horrible things take place, the doctors are performing unthinkable experiments on the patients . You're truly MISINFORMORED these hospitals are treating the mind, just as others treat the sick and injured.

@ Sandi S. You are so knowledgeable. You have a hammer in your toolbox so all you think of using is a hammer (psychotherapy and antidepressant).

@Cox. Quit threatening us with what other countries think. It is not a good argument. Oh the weak-kneed, whitebread countries don't try malicious teenagers as adults? They don't do a lot of things like defend themselves, work for living (significant minority; Sweden), create jobs (20% unemployment in many countries), maintain civil order (We have Mardi gras; they have car burning season & not because of the environment) or balance a budget (Greece) or even procreate (Italy; the special interests want the sweet life (la vida dolce) sooo much the strangle their grandchildren with high taxes.
You also cherry pick your countries. Are you euro-centric? Why not mention Singapore, China Malaysia, Nigeria, South Africa or Indonesia?

I hammer in morning, I hammer in the evening, I hammer all over the world. lol

Im pretty sure mcr didn't kill herself. She is too smart of a girl for that. She did however give her reason for leaving in the comments thread of this past story.

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/03/jessie_canfield_had_baby_at_pa.php

I wish she'd come back. But that is up to her.

There was a news program 03/09/2010 that was talking about teen suicide. Pick on in schools, preparing for college and other issues kids are up against. Anyway Suicide is responsible for killing 1/3 our children under the age of 18(their not taking any Medication)experts are saying because of the pressure their under. They discussed Alyssa's case briefly, her grandparents had garden ship of her sense she was 3, Alyssa was put into therapy as a little girl due to her behavior issues. At the age of 8 she was in extensive therapy first and than shortly there after her psychiatrist put her on Prozac because of her severe depression and suicide attempts. She had been hospitalized for a suicide attempt that she almost succeeded at. This girl needs a lot of mental help, she is one sick person Alyssa could have had a lot to offer this world she is a gifted person she's very intelligent.

That's very interesting Sandy S., but the reason for the focus on teenage suicide at this time is unknown. According to an article in LA Times. Suicide rates dropped from 1986 to 1999 for people aged 10 years old to 29 years old and over the age of 65, mainly due to community prevention focus. The rates for these age groups have remained unchanged since then. The actual increase in suicides is driven by a 36% increase in the suicide rate for age groups 40 - 65 (includes black/white, males/females in that age group.) The writer of this story attributes it to Oxycotin and other prescription med. abuse. Sounds like there is something missing from that story.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/21/science/sci-suicide21

A police investigation into the death of Montana Lance, a nine-year old who hung himself in the nurses office in a Colony TX school now reveals that he had been on mood stabilizers for two years and the parents had sought treatment for ADHD for him. Teenage, and any other suicide is very complex and there would be many factors, but common sense should tell you that it is a very bad idea to put children and teens on drugs other than DimeTap and Tylenol. And the above statistics apparently tell us that it is a 36% percent worse idea to put adults on the drugs.

Every 90 minutes, a teenager or young adult dies by suicide.

Your numbers and % are interesting but are outdated. As of 2009-2010 1/3 of our teenagers are taking their own lives. If fact Dr. Phil had a topic on teenage suicide Friday. These teenagers are depressed and are not taking any Medication. Rocki you need to update your information.
Teenagers today are more stressed than ever before — from the pressure to get into college to helping with family finances — and many find themselves at the breaking point. The alarming rise in the number of teens taking their own lives is leaving parents desperate for answers

BTBIG(ROCKI) who ever you really need to get you information correct before posting B/S!!!!!
Every 100 minutes another teenager will commit suicide.

Suicide is the second leading cause of death among people between the ages of 14 and 25 in the United States.

The following statistics were taken from a recent survey of college and high school students by the CDC:

Twenty-seven percent of high school students said they had "thought seriously" about killing themselves during the past year. Eight percent said they had actually tried to kill themselves.

Ten percent of U.S. college students admitted serious thoughts about suicide. Seven percent had a suicide plan.

More than 30,000 Americans commit suicide each year, and 5,000 of these people are teenagers.

If someone you know is planning to take his or her life, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1 (800) 273-TALK (8255).
http://drphil.com/shows/show/1428/

If you're quoting Dr. Phil's show, you seem to have missed this one on ADD medications,

http://drphil.com/articles/article/153/

Here's an excerpt from that page:
Unfortunately some physicians typically do not stop medicating when psychotic symptoms appear. Instead, they may slap on another diagnosis, of depression or antisocial personality, and then treat this diagnosis by adding antidepressants, mood stabilizers, or neuroleptics (commonly used for epilepsy) to the treatment mix. It is not unusual for children to be taking as many as five different medications, all based on adult prescriptions. Meds upon meds is madness upon madness ...

So interesting.

Sandy,
Here are your posts:

As of 2009-2010 1/3 of our teenagers are taking their own lives.

More than 30,000 Americans commit suicide each year, and 5,000 of these people are teenagers.

How do you not get 1/3 = 5,000 out of that?

No Rocki,The National Suicide Prevention is not talking about Medication before or after Suicide attemps and deaths. So stop trying to twist it into your antidepressant WAR.

My statement did not address meds before or after suicide. I was addressing your math (hype) which is obviously off by millions, which you appear to want to side-step and brush under the carpet so don't bother posting to me again. It's you who need correcting, not me. I don't deal with liars.

You can put your statement any way you want to, it is not going to change what National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1 (800) 273-TALK (8255)states and has studied. You can also keep telling yourself this is my math all you want. You stated that you did not say anything about MEDS. That makes you the Liar doesn't it?
Oh and this is worldwide now start dividing.
Over one million people commit suicide every year, making it the tenth-leading cause of death worldwide
www:livestrong.com

Throughout the world, about 2000 people kill themselves each day. That's about 80 per hour, three quarters of a million a year. In the U.S., there are more than 80 deaths from suicide every day, 30,000 every year. This is the equivalent of a fully loaded jumbo jet crash every fifth day. From another perspective, you are more likely to kill yourself than be killed by someone else.

Another estimated 300,000 (or more) Americans a year survive a suicide attempt. A majority have injuries minor enough to need no more than emergency room treatment. However, about 116,000 are hospitalized, of whom 110,000 are eventually discharged alive. Their average hospital stay is 10 days; the average cost is $15,000.

"...without knowledge of proper dosages and methods, suicide attempts are often bungled, leaving the victim worse off than before. Many intended suicides by gunshot leave the person alive but brain-damaged; drug overdoses that are not fatal may have the same effect. One eighty-three-year-old woman obtained an insufficient number of pills and lost consciousness but did not die; her daughter ended up smothering her with a plastic bag."

Seventeen percent, some 19,000, of these people are permanently disabled, restricted in their ability to work, each year, at a cost of $127,000 per person. Such injury is tragic, either if someone were trying to kill herself and failed, or, perhaps even sadder, if the suicide attempt was intended as a "cry for help".

About 1.4% of Americans end their lives by suicide. This is the eighth leading cause of death in the U.S., and ranks fourth in years of lost life. The largest increase in the last 30 years has been among people between 15-24 years old, but the highest rates are still among the elderly. Men kill themselves at about four times the rate for women (19.8/100,000 vs 4.5/100,000 in 1994). Around 3% of adults make one or more suicide attempts.

There are more suicides than the official numbers show, but there is no general agreement as to how many more. Estimates of under-reporting range from around 1% to 300%. Reasons for under-reporting include:

(1) families or family physicians may hide evidence due to the stigma of suicide. For example, "Physicians and surviving relatives have told me in confidence of many deaths which were suicides, but which had been certified as natural or accidental deaths by a physician, either through error, misinformation, or deliberate falsehood....My own estimate is that there were an additional 10,000 deaths yearly [in the U.S.] which would have been certified as suicides if there had been complete and impartial investigations

BTBig said:
This is your article and website address, I copied it for you to read.Looks a little different from what you were saying? Thank You!

Los Angeles Times
YOU ARE HERE: LAT Home→Collections→Suicides

Suicide rate in U.S. is up
It's climbed steadily since 1999. The most alarming increase is among middle-age adults: nearly 16%.
NATION
October 21, 2008|Denise Gellene and Gellene is a Times staff writer.
After falling for more than a decade, the U.S. suicide rate has climbed steadily since 1999, driven by an alarming increase among middle-age adults, researchers said Monday.
A new six-year analysis in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine found that the U.S. suicide rate rose to 11 per 100,000 people in 2005, from 10.5 per 100,000 in 1999, an increase of just under 5%.
Untreated depression is the leading cause of suicide, he said.

"The bottom line is while we can't infer a lot of things about what is causing the trend, I think it cries out for better depression screening and treatment," he said.

Suicide rates declined 18% from 1986 to 1999, helped in part by a focus on prevention among teenagers and the elderly
That was back in 1986-1999 New studies are higher 1/3 2009
In the current study, researchers found little or no change in the suicide rates for three other age groups: 10 to 19, 20 to 29, and over 65.

Nope,
That's basically what I said, teens-rate pretty much unchanged in a decade, dramatic increase for middle aged people since 1999.

"After falling for more than a decade, the U.S. suicide rate has climbed steadily since 1999, driven by an alarming increase among middle-age adults, researchers said Monday."

BTBig, Yes, from 2000-2009 suicide has increase through out the US for all groups.Yes this is YOUR information I copied what you posted.Your information proves the point that suicide in the US has increased and it has nothing to do with MED.s. My last post is from YOUR E-Mail address that's the article you got Your informaion from Los Angeles Times.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/21/science/sci-suicide21
Heres Your information go ahead and re-check it for yourself?
If you want accurate information on teen suicide just google young people committing suicide in the US 2009. All the most recent information is there. "Have a Great Day!"

Sandy S.
Thank you. I will have a great day becuaseI make it a point never to take direction from the semantically challenged. I think you need to look it up and read it again and again until you come to the conclusion that there are a few more than 15,000 teens living in the US.

Bt Big,
Sweetheart, if you think your insult proves a point, you are not a very intelligent opponent. That is not the way to carry on an intelligent debate; Therefore for you to believe that sarcasm needs to be used, only proves how uninformed you really are. When you have some real information and can debate like an adult let me know. Have a Great day!

Sandy S.
I'm not "your opponent" You were actually the first to inject sarcasm into your comments byt telling me to have a nice day. There is no rule book on facts that says, just because Sandy S. does not agree with me, I must be wrong. The facts regarding ages and suicide numbers and medication side effects support my statements, not yours. Move on.

If you think my information is too old, then here is some printed w/in the last 24 hours in the New York Times

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E6D6103AF93BA25751C0A9639C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

The studies cited here either point to 1.) Suicide attempts 2X greater in those on SSRI's or 2.) No difference.

In NONE of the studies, did the result show a DECREASE in suicidal behavior for those ON SSRI's.

BTBig,
I'm still trying to figure out what your point is? All of the Studies Facts, NOT your articles, show that in less than 1% some people, some people, will experience side affects from(SSRI's)okay everyone knows that. You responded to my post, I did not respond to anything you had to say. Back On the Topic Alyssa is being tried as an adult because of the way she carried out her crime. The argument here seems to be antidepressants caused her to act out and kill the little girl. Some people are posting she should be tried as a juvenile and be free after serving a few years. It doesn't matter to me you can reply back if you wish to or not, she's going to be tried as an adult and Antidepressants did not make her murder this child. Have a Great Day! I really do mean it.

Sandy S.,
You are obviousely not as knowledable or as bright as you think. You are confusing 2 issues. 1.) Should Alyssa be tried as an adult or juvenile? I never said she shouldn't be tried as an adult. The state basically has no choice unless they want her to serve only 6 years for this horrible crime. She'd be released when she's 21 and then her records sealed. She needs way more treatment than she would get this way. 2.) The fact that SSRI's, which she was taking, is implicated in numerous homicidal and suicidal results, especially in the young. Even though she is being tried as an adult, this fact should be taken into consideration. Prozac is a partial cause of this homicide.

Just because something is accepted (or in the case of SSRI's, partially accepted) today doesn't mean that it will always be that way. Both PCP and LSD were once used as prescription drugs by the medical and psychiatric industry. LSD was even given to alcoholics BY Alcoholics Anonymous for drinker who could not stop drinking. Now that is rich. Both of these drugs were around for about 30 years and then became illegal. I wonder if there was ever a person who commited a crime while under the influence of these drugs when they were legal?

You have a vested personal interest in sticking up for antidepressants, not an objective point of view.

Sandy S.,
I also looked back at some of the posts and to actually consider the death penalty in any case where mind altering prescriptions are involved, adult or child, is completely absurd and illogical even by your admitted agreement that although a small percentage of people experience these side effects (maybe 1% - 5%), the side effects do actually exist.

And as for you dealing with problem kids. You are getting to them AFTER the system has intervened and prescribed drugs. You cannot tell if they would be able to improve with therapy alone if they are getting both drugs and therapy. Any violent behavior, fighting, stabbing, needs to be addressed and may have multiple causes, both mental and drug. You say the medication is voluntary but do these kids have a right to refuse? Are they made aware of this?

And as far as telling cox that he is wrong in stating that stays in psyhciatric facilities promote worsening, well, that is totally wrong.

Check out Universal Health Services facilities for teens and the homicide conviction rate for staff for killing it's teen patients. I can't imagine a worse outcome than death from mental health treatment.

Bt Big,
The answer to your question is No, kids do not have a say after the appropriate psychiatric evaluation has been done. Children under the age of 18 can not stop taking their medication. Back to the topic and the issue at hand. First children 1/3 of our children are committing suicide because of depression. 1-5% of antidepressants DO CAUSE side affects in some people. People under the age of 25 1-5% are more likely to have side effects. I know that some Medications that are proscribed for just about everything can cause side effects that is the sad facts of ALL medications. If people like you and some of the other views are so against antidepressants and drugs that cause side effects, don't take them that's up to YOU.
Alyssa regardless to her taking Prozac at the time of the murder, she already had a history of violence and mental disturbance. She tried to take her own life and was put in the hospital, that was before she was put on PROZAC. I never said she would get the death penalty, but she will spend the rest or most of her life in prison. Experts study sociopaths these people have no conscious of what they do, they just don't care regardless of their age. No drug, therapy, or prison is going to help them
"Hope you had a nice St. Patty's Day" I mean that too

Sandy S.,
Who has determined that Alyssa is a sociopath? Where is that documented? I assume that "the appropriate psychiatric evaluation" is always 100% correct and foolproof? How long does it take? 2 hours? To beyond the shadow of a doubt pinpoint the cause of a problem that took 10 to 15 years to manifest itself in a complete stranger? To not be able to refuse psych meds and be held accountable for their actions-that's a serious human rights issue right there (and I have confirmed that with a PHD Clinical psychologist who specializes in forensic psychology.)

When you say 1/3 of our children are killing themselves because of depression, do you mean that 1/3 of suicides are because of depression or that 1/3 of teens in the US are killing themselves? That means, that in my general little neighborhood, I can think of maybe 20 teens I see walking around, 7 of them will be dead from suicide each year?

And if you say that 1/3 of suicides in teens are caused by depression, what the hell are the other 2/3 caused by?

BT BIG,
What the hell do you think they do? Hope most of them grow old. I this could go on forever! I have given you the information time after time go read all the post. You're probably Rocki and if you're not I really don't know what else I can say to you, you have become a pest. If you want to be the winner okay you're the winner! If you want to be the person that has the last word, Okay you got it!You go right ahead and have at it. You are not the type of person that can be reasoned with. If Jesus Christ himself were standing right in front of you;You would pick a fight with him. You need to move on, you gave me a headache.

BTBig,
For God Sakes READ it this time and educate yourself!!!!
PHD Clinical psychologist who specializes in forensic psychology.)B/S
Just for the record, this is the Law!
The legal concept of "parental responsibility" is key to understanding who is able to give consent for a child to have a physical or psychological medical examination. This can be a complex issue. The child’s mother will, almost always, have parental responsibility, as will the child’s father if married to the mother. Biological fathers whose names appear on the birth certificate will automatically have parental responsibility. Other unmarried fathers may acquire parental responsibility through a formal process. Grandparents and step-parents would not normally have parental responsibility (although under some circumstances they can acquire it).
Guidelines
A child should only be examined by a medical professional with the valid consent of at least one parent or with the consent of the child if aged 16 or 17 years and competent.
You're second dumb example if there are 1 out of 100 babies born with web feet, Yeah! you go ahead and count 100 babies and I gaurantee 1 will have web feet!!!!!
http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/teen_suicide
Suicides among young people continue to be a serious problem. Each year in the U.S., thousands of teenagers commit suicide. Suicide is the third leading cause of death for 15-to-24-year-olds, and the sixth leading cause of death for 5-to-14-year-olds.

Sandy S.,
Can you provide the statute number for that "law"? Thanks for calling me dumb and saying I was talking about web feet statistics. It's not a law, it's a regulation that applies to facilities licensed by the state to provide mental health, substance abuse, and intellectual disability services. I thought you worked in this field?!?!?

If so, then you would realize that there is a new human rights regulation, implemented in 2008 which requires informed consent specifically for psychotropic drugs and ECT. All treatment plans must be updated yearly. If Alyssa was seen by a state social worker, then in 2009, informed consent would have had to be obtained to continue the Prozac. Her age being 14 or 15 at the time, the consent was probably provided by the mother, not her.

This seems to be a situation where the regulations of a government licensed facitlity are in direct conflict with the laws of the state. If the person who is receiving the treatment but not signing the consent form is the person who has the potential to suffer the legal consequences for the side effects of the treatment by criminal law, then this is a conflict. This is a huge human rights issue.

And I'm not really sure how you can say that anti-depressants have a positive behavioral effect only and not in Alyssa's case. You say they help millions but what Alyssa did has nothing to do with Prozac? If you accept that they have an effect on behavior and the brain, ie., I take this and I can function much better I feel happy. Well I guess it's this wonder drug! But you do not accept the fact that it could be the other way around? I take this, I feel scared, I feel shaky, I feel angry and I like to do bad things? It must be me.

That's like saying that if a wonder drug to cure obesity was invented and everyone who took it magically lost 20 pounds per month but in 1% - 5% percent of people who took, they developed terminal cancer within 8 months but no one knew who would get it, it was a gamble but it helped "millions" of people. Then they start using this drug on obese children with the parents' consent. And it helps millions of children, except the small percentage who develop terminal cancer. Would you visit these bald children in the hospital and tell them that there is something wrong with their bodies and that is why they are dying. Because their defective bodies reacted in an incorrect way to this wonder drug?

Rocky,BT Big, you're the winner, give it a rest. You know what, you can fight all you wish too. Nothing will change the out come. Alyssa murdered a 9 year old child and now she will pay for for the rest of her life. End of story.

No, actually Sandy, you are the big winner, and the most enormous sell-out I have ever met.

Well, off to Rome & Sorrento, things I'm sure you cannot afford. Sucks to be you!

Sandy S.,
Alyssa's story will live forever in infamy of SSRI's. I'm still waiting for your statutes. And you expect us to beieve that the 6th leading cause of death among KINDERGARTENERS is suicide? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh Please, you are pulling this out of your 600 lb. ass. Ha Ha.

rocki I thought u were leaving for Rome? had time to post a second post huh?

Rocki, Have a great time in Rome. I hope to God 5 year old babies are not committing suicide maybe the babies you know, but none that I'm familiar with. My Ass part of your post is pretty childish don't you think? My kids haven't said Ha,Ha, sense they were 3-4 years old. I'm 5'8" around 125-128lb.s. How could I ever ride my horses weighing that much? lol. If you are going on a vacation have fun.

inconclusive,
Yes, I am leaving for Rome & Sorrento in a couple of weeks, but I guess you and your enormous obese mother & daughter have to sit on this website and argue with everything in reality. Seriously, you expect people (who are literate-by normal standards, not Elizabeth Schatz standards)that suicide is the 6th leading cause of death in Kindergarteners? You are on a lot more than anti-depressants if you think that, dummy on drugs.

OMG Please show the link where suicide is the 6th leading cause of death in Kindergarteners. You have an incredible mind for fiction!

Otherwise, good bye losers! And rocki is right!!!

Oh you win, Sandy says "Suicide is the 6th leading cause of death in Kindergarteners"

That's my new name buffalo butt.

Sandy S.,
You may want to have your daughter correct your spelling, I hear she's very good at it, although not as thourough as Elizabeth Schatz, it's "since" not "sence." Illegal alien much?

Seriously rocki u have to realize that even if you are right about ANY of the things you say you are manic. And if you are'nt leaving for ROME today WHY EVEN MENTION IT IN A POSTING? You are like a first grader all the time, posting "I am better than you are." Or "I am smarter than you are" Or "I am right" Glad you validate yourself CONSTANTLY but who is it your trying to convince us or YOU?

Rocki, "Otherwise, good bye losers! And rocki is right!!!" Come on you are not serious with a statement like this? What is wrong with you? I am not trying to be mean or put you down, but you are getting scary. No one at your age says all the time or even once" Rocki is right!!! or Ha,Ha," what's that all about?
Rocki, I just got off the phone a few hours ago with mental health in my city. The leading cause of death for young people in the USA is Suicide. Out of those deaths in the USA 1/3 are from Suicide. There has never been any experiments done on children under the age of 18 to see what the side effects were on children under 18, it is against the law. Also in some states children 16-17 and older can decide if they do not want to take antidepressant meds. In other states the age is 13 and up.

Sandy S.,

My goodness. I stand corrected. I just saw a report on the news and fully 1/6 of kindergarteners (that's 4 in an average class of 24) had seriously contemplated suicide sometime during the school year. Reasons sited were horrifying persistent memories of peeing their pants in K-Mart, being forced to eat peas, and succumbing to major depressive disorder over that last year as a result of watching "Old Yellar." I've often thought that movie was too sad for little kids. We should get them on medication as soon as possible!
Ha, you got me once bimbo. you won't get me again.

Rocki, Rocki, Rocki, Poor sick little Rocki. You're going to be Okay.

Here is some more current information on suicide and anti-depressants.
Taken from 3/4/2010 article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/health/2010/03/04/2010-03-04_suicides_of_mcqueen_koenig_and_osmond_son_michael_blosil_raise_questions_on_anti.html

Sheena Hankin, Ph.D., a Manhattan psychotherapist, estimates that 60% of her patients who try antidepressants don’t get relief. “There really is no hard science that says they work,” she explains. “It’s very much up in the air right now. And in some people they actually cause anger.”

“These studies don’t take people with severe depression or those who are acutely suicidal,” Duke University Medical Center psychiatry Prof. Dr.Murali Doraiswamy told ABC News. “Since FDA trials involve half the group taking placebos, it is unlikely we will ever conduct a definitive trial of an antidepressant in acutely suicidal people.”
Put another way, because it would not be ethical to offer a placebo to someone at risk for suicide, doctors have a difficult time proving that antidepressants are harmful or helpful.

Do you understand what that is saying? They don't know and can't ever test whether or not anti-depressants prevent suicide. It's not allowed. They have never known and never will.

basically i want put something clearly,this girl is not serial killer and not a monster too!!! her just have mental problem.Her need help not the jail.Couples months agos i feel same way her,big problem control my anger and depression scrap my mind!!im ready do everything you have too much problem control this after.the poeple talk about monster wtf you know nothing about this girl how hard its her life!!!i remember want kill someone just for know what felt like when you do this!!!!i remember i dont care about ages girl or boy!!!For me i control that but for some poeple he cant and im anti-social boy LoL yeah i thave good relationship with my mother i have couple friends but i cant broke this easely!!!by the way i hope the judge go help her not put her in a box for 40 years!!!its a little girl (kid) need help its what i want said free alyssa

Uh yannick uh, u should seek out help for that dude.

BT Big, these are the type of people you are talking about, yannick Lefebvre proves your point.

Keep using my name. You don't write my words and everyone knows.

Is this really rocki? Are you having one of your manic episodes? No one has fed into your rants and taunts and pure craziness in the last couple days.Poor rocki.Poor poor attention starved rocki.

And what's wrong with Victoria's Secret? What's the matter, rock? They don't make your size?

@mcr I know you have more integrity,
@Rocki
and both of you...
stop stop STOP! This Article is not the place. Just not here---

Tonight is the first time I've commented on this thread in weeks. Don't badger me. I do have integrity, I also know that rocki is out of her mind. In scanning through the comments above, I noticed that rocki has brought up Sandy's daughter more than once, obviously thinking that I am her. Guess she didn't read the other threads where I told Sandy I think she's kind of dumb and annoying. No one on here is as bad as rocki, though. Not even close. Even Bill Mancock was easier to take. Rocki needs meds. If it's that obvious through an internet comment board, then you know it's bad.

iLLusionS, You are pretty funny! I don't know if this is Jane(rocki) or not. Jane didn't seem like this 4 months ago. She was funny, intelligent and not at all childish.
Mcr, I have an idea as to why you are pissed at me, but that is something you need to deal with. You are not the brightest light on the block and as far as annoying, you are a down right Pest!. Talk about me, Billy-boy and this nut Rocki, you make us look like amateurs. Clean your own back yard before you tell us how clean ours.

Adolescents do not have enough brain development to always understand right from wrong or have full understandings of the concept of death. A different area of the brain is used in the decision-making process making them more likely to think irrationally, and leaving them less likely to think out actions and about consequences, especially when they're mentally ill.

As far as brain research goes, scientists have found that the brain changes quite dramatically during adolescence, developments in the thought process and connections among regions are still being made.

The amygdala, the part of the brain responsible for impulse and emotion, controls decision-making into early adulthood.
The prefrontal cortex is the more advanced part of the brain responsible for decision-making and is last to develope and continues to until an individuals 20s. This part of the brain also allows humans to plan, anticipate consequences, control impulses, prioritize thoughts, think in the abstract, moderate correct social behavior, differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, and expectation based on actions.

Research has shown that youth is also a condition of life when a person may be most susceptible to influence and to psychological damage. Juveniles who've been subjected to envornmental problems may suffer from cognitive underdevelopment, and susceptibility to outside influences greater than those suffered by normal teenagers. But because an adolescents character is not yet fully formed, they have an inherant capacity for change and an ability to reform.

This crime was the side-effect of Prozac and she would not have been homicidal if she wasn't taking it. Point Blank. I think Alyssa has learned her lesson, she should be freed in her 20s and that should be the end of it. I think they should just get it done right in the first place PLEASE & THANK YOU.

younger people have not developed the thought process and cognitive skills that adults have and are still gaining knowledge and experience to be assesed by the brain. They do not have adequate desicion making skills and moral reasoning can still be developing.

IT'S A PERSON'S ENVIORNMENT THAT HAS INFLUENCED THEIR CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR.

I don't understand life without parole at all isn't the point of prison to rehabilitate? To put away people for life before they even understand consequences or the nature of their actions doesn't seem just.

MCR- These countries do not let *sociopaths roam the streets* they rehabilitate these people and it works just fine. Imprisonment there is not punishment or a revenge, it is for rehabilitating and reintergrating people. Their systems work because it treats and respects the offenders as humans able to redeem themselves.

Eric Harris had been taking antidepressants when he planned the columbine school shooting, he had written of his hatred of society and his desire to kill those who annoyed him.

Rod Mathews a 14-year-old who had been placed on methylphenidate, had wrote: “My problem is I like to do crazy things. I’ve been lighting fires all over the place. Lately, I’ve been wanting to kill people I hate, and I’ve been wanting to light houses on fire. What should I do?” Shortly after, Rod lured a fellow student into a forested area and beat him to death with a baseball bat. After he was arrested and taken off methylphenidate, his violent thoughts stopped.

http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=283

When a juvenile commits a crime like Alyssa did, she is a danger to society. It doesn't matter what our opinions are in regards to her being tried as a juvenile or adult. Taking Prozac or not taking Prozac! Alyssa is being tried as an Adult. We can have our opinions on what we think she should or should not have but in reality it doesn't change anything.
How the Human Brain Developed and How the Human Mind Works
by Manfred Davidmann

15 - 30 Beta Associated with being alert, with normal thinking, with processing information.
“If the sentencing options available to us are not sufficient enough to protect society then we’ll transfer it to adult court,” said Attorney Fran Carino, the supervisory assistant state’s attorney.

The general theory of confidentiality in juvenile court is that kids are kids and they do stupid things,” Carino said. “The idea in juvenile is to rehabilitate kids. If he does something stupid as a kid then we’re not going to penalize him for the rest of his life.”
“It really gives you a chance to make a mistake

Look Mcr, you are doing exactly the same thing that you're telling me that I'm doing. Has it ever accrued to you that you are a nasty person. I don't back down on what I believe as far as right and wrong. But who in the Hell do you think you're talking to? It's not just me you do this to, it's everyone. No rocki Jane who ever she is has no right saying the things she does, but I have realized she has a problem. What I am saying about Alyssa was not even addressed to Rocki and certainly not you. You do realized you stuck your nose in someone elses business. As far as who is intelligent and who is not. I have no idea who has a degree and who doesn't on here. I do know that you are only 24-25 so you may have an AA. What difference does that make. Because on can spell better or has a better vocabulary, a higher degree? I don't think so. You're 24 years old it's fine to stand up and fight for what you believe in and God knows I do because the topics I defend is what I believe in. But for you to turn on people like a snake and bit them in the ass is getting old. You are constantly telling all of us Fuck you, we are retards, stupid; You know what that makes you a very, very insecure little girl.

Oh how funny you kids R. Men should answer for the wicked things they've done. You have to draw a hard line. Saint Pete will know what I'm talking about but you never will. Like tadpoles eating their young. Justice will always prevail whether you agree with it or not.

Reece: Where is the unemployment rate 20% ? not in europe.. Of all the countries I checked out they are all under 10% ... Denmark: 1.9%, Norway: 2.5%, Swedan: 6.1%, italy: 6.2%, United States: 10%

and For the euro countries, I don't know I just felt like sticking to it but let's see how some of the other countries sentence juveniles...

The maximum sentence for a person under 18 in Russia is 10 years.
Japan depends but usually until around adulthood.
Korea 10-20 years.

Japan is also about 90% atheist/irreligious and has very low crime rates so I guess there goes the argument that religious belief is moral necessity.

Oh sorry in japan they are shintos and buddhists but claim to be atheist, about 65% are irreligious and atheist according to statistics.. but still.

and about them "not defending themselves".. it's called being a pacifist. Jesus, Gandhi and Einstien were all pacifits. Look it up if you dont know what it is.

As Ghandi had said "An eye for an eye leaves the whole World blind"

also i take back the 1 15 years I read something that made me think that, I meant to say up to 15.

PETE GET RID OF THE OLD BAG!!! I BEG OF YOU, SHE SUCKS THE LIFE AND FUN OUT OF THIS SITE!!! HOPE MCR REALLY DOES START HER OWN SITE, JUST LIKE SANDY'S- TRUE HORSE RAPING REPORT- SANDY IS OLD , NEVER UNDERSTANDS OTHER POSTS, FORGETS WHAT SHE HAS TYPED AND IS CONSTANTLY BERATING TO OTHER POSTERS!! AND SHE CAN ONLY SPELL FILTHY WORDS CORRECTLY, ITS A SHAME AN OLD WOMAN HAS THE MENTALITY OF A LITTLE BOY. TELL HER TO STOP PETE AND WE CAN GO BACK TO ENJOYING YOU AWSOME WRITING SKILLS. THANKS AND FU SANDY MAN

Maybe the second grave was for herself?

Here is another wonderful story of kids on these much needed meds:

"Riley's daughter Rebecca died in 2006, ruled to be a toxic overdose of an prescribed drug used to treat ADHD.
Prosecutor Frank Middleton said Riley kept her drugged up to ensure she would be docile and stay out of his hair. He accused Riley of ordering his wife to give the girl more drugs to make her sleep when she came into their bedroom and complained of being sick.
"He took no action to kill his child, and it is not a case of failing to take some action that would have saved her," defense attorney John Darrell said. "What would have saved her was to have Dr. Kifuji stay in Japan."
Both the defense and prosecution railed against the Boston psychiatrist who diagnosed Rebecca with ADHD at the age of two. Prosecutors say the Rileys concocted the symptoms of menal illness to get Social Security disability payments.
Middleton called the psychiatrist "a quack" who continually gave the Rileys pills, despite a lack of interaction with Rebecca. Dr. Kayoko Kifuji is still practicing at Tufts Medical Center.
Carolyn Riley has already been convicted of second-degree murder. She is spending life in prison."

Pyche drugs profits are blood money up one side and down the other and all involved know this. Just not you Sandy and mcr.

Sadly, the doctor was cleared by a grand jury even though she prescribed Rebecca 3 powerful psychotropic drugs since the age of 2. She still faces a wrongful death lawsuit from Rebecca's estate.

On the above story, one thing to add. The reason the doctor was cleared by the grand jury was that she was granted immunity to testify against the parents. She had also prescribed the same or similar drugs to Rebecca's siblings (2 other children) The prosecutor is not very bright or would have done it the other way around, got the parents to testify against the doctor and they could have gotten at least 3 convictions on the doctor (one for each child) but instead only got one conviction on each of the parents.

Rocki Jane what ever you are going by now, did I tell you my horses name is Rocky. With y not an I. You poor, poor sweet Rocki, Yes sweetheart you won!

I'm not sure how "I win" except that you gave up. That's not something I like to see.

I would be the last person to condone defeat of good against evil. You are a pussy and you need to get up off your lazy antidepressant addicted ass and tell me what is wrong with me.

Why/how do people have long-time obsessions and hold grudges for so long? Rocki you need to read this!

Lack of purpose. What I mean is, if you don't really have life goals, if you really don't know what you want out of life, if you're just floating along....you'll tend to latch on to the latest fad or obsess about things that end up being pointless.

As for holding grudges, same thing, BUT also, major insecurity. If you don't like yourself and you are miserable as to where you are, you're going to be negative and think negative and anyone that makes you mad, you're going to over-react and hold a grudge....I mean, what else have you got to do with your time if you've got no real purpose and if you don't like yourself = you're going to hold on to your own pointless anger longer than you should

You know, a lot of people are saying "oh this is exactly what black people do" but nowhere in this article did it say specifically that these girls were black. Yes, it might be expected because they live in Trenton, NJ, an area with a high African-American population, but if any city was a completely black city then this would be Africa, not America. So people shouldn't jump to conclusions. :/

Eden, wtf are you talking about?

@MCR:
Sorry I posted that to the wrong topic. I had both pages open.

Thank You Pete.......Hug

It is this Prozac again, nom du marché for fluoxetine, a side effect of which is Akathisia, inner restlessnes, being much more pronounced in persons under 25.

A valid question is would Alyssa Bustamante have come remotely close to beating up let alone killing anybody without fluoxetine.

If justice includes elements of vengeance, expiation,for the sake of prevention, also cause analysis, getting to the bottom of all this, is needed.

I like the idea of rehabilitation rather than punishment, the penalty is the sentence, the loss of freedom, friends, and family. My swedish friend's brother had to go to prison, and he got his own room and bathroom, cable tv, game systems, and even earned money there.

I guess this is the philosophy that says it's better to have people learn something rather than to repress them and keep them criminal. And yes prison is to rehabilitate, treating them as animals isn't the way to do that. So, life without parole makes no sense, it should be abolished or atleast be the exception and not the rule. Of course people can continue to be contained for life if they're considered to be unpredictable or determined to be untreatable.

People seem to think you get detterence from punishment, and use themselves as examples by saying that is why they don't commit a crime. If that is the reason you don't, and I doubt it is, because I'd believe there'd be something very wrong with you either way. I would not kill someone whether punishment was in place or not, so that leaves me with the idea that people do not choose their crimes as we would, but that their envornment on their person has predisposed their criminal behaviour or proness. It's the enviornement that inhibits the part of the brain for criminal behaviour, this area is not developed in people under 20.

Think about, could you plan the murder of someone or carry one out??? Is this normal for a person is this the normal behaviour of a child? This is what mental illness can do to people. We evolved from social animals we help eachother to survive, which means we have evolved with an instinct not to kill one another, but also with an ability too if precieved, but this part of the brain can be misapplied in people who've developed a mental condition.

Some people don't understand the mental and emotional burden a broken and complicated family can have on youths. I know that for some people coping with a new family member and new siblings is an enormous adjustment nearly impossible to cope with.

Sandy do you understand that youths who would have got life without parole here, have gotten much shorter sentences in other countries?? Aleksandr Rubel was an Estonian youth serial killer who killed six people, he served the maximum sentence of 8 years and was rehabilitated without being a problem sense. Mathew Bently, a 14 year old from Michigan, was sentenced to life without parole for a murder he had commited in 97. He had been on Zoloft for depression and Dexedrine for hyperactivity. Father: In jail for sexually abusing a relative. Mother: Alcoholic.

Dear Pete,
I hope you read this, I wasn't sure what Topic to post it on? Thank You for having a great Website and the Freedom to express ourselves. We all get carried away at times, but most of us enjoy TCR.
Thank You,
Sandy H.
Happy Easter to You and Your Family.

Do you people who assert "do an adult crime, do the adult time" consider that youth aren't afforded the same rights as adults because they aren't considered to have the capacity to handle adult responsibilities?

People seem to fear and have lote to discredit about socialism but it seems to do society good. Norway for example is governed by the socialist party and it is not exactly failing under it. I mean being the wealtheist country in the world, ranked #1 for quality of life and in human development, lowest crime and unemployment rates

The prison director explains that the presumption that criminals should be punished is a mistake, and taking that line makes people bad. "The big closed prisons are criminal schools. If you treat people badly, they will behave badly. Anyone can be a citizen if we treat them well, respect them, and give them challenges and demands." With such a fine social system though, most of the only people commiting crimes there are foreigners or just mental health patients

The conservatives identify more with the "lock 'em up and throw away the key", while prevention and rehabilitation appeals more to the leftist.

The amont the brain changes into adulthood may account for some of the crazy, impulsive, irrational behaviour sometime seen in teenagers. Some teens are more unstable, emotionally imbalenced and have different levels of maturity than others. Been there and done that, the difference between me now is that I've developed values, ethics and new senses which as a youth I was oblivious to, had no concept of or lacked the experience of learning from it.

I remember some of the completely *retarded* choices I made between the ages of 13 to 17...let's see,there was the time screwing around with strike anywhere matches, catching part of a tree branch that had broken off and fallen into the back yard on fire only for my dad to come outside to ask me a question - so since I didn't know what else to do I threw the burning branch over the fence into my neighbor's very dry backyard, which I of course used the hose so that the whole place didn't go up in flames (once my dad went back inside, but he did ask why he smelled smoke...)...or going to knotts with a friend after telling my mom that my rehearsal was cancelled - I just didn't feel like going that day - and was thoroughly embarassed when she tracked me down over the p.a. system after the director had called to find out where the heck I was instead of at the rehearsal. Oooh, there was the night I tried to convince my parents that the reason I wasn't home by midnight and finally arrived after 4am was because the person who was driving got really lost and it wasn't safe to pull over and ask for directions - if the homeless people who were the only ones out on the street tbat late would be able to help us anyway ;)

Now THOSE incidents are perfect examples of a normal teenage girl...well, ok, a normal teenager in the 90's minus the pot and sex experimentation - I didn't get around to those things until I was 18, just figured that I'd respect the parents feelings about such things until I was an adult and could tell them to f-off because it was my life to lead at that point. I have yet to kill anyone, though there are times I consider throwing my stapler at people at work who don't get that the rules weren't made by me and want to get their crap right then and there which isn't going to work for the other people who followed procedure and submitted the proper documentation - I do the work of 4 people faster and better myself, have the luxury of being left to the task in relative solitude most of the time, and the job I do is one valued by my bosses. I'd go on about all of the things that make my life *bitchen*, but I don't want people to start getting jealous of me, so I'll just get to the point.

Wait...what was that....dammit, I'll be back when I remember.

Yeah, me to at 13-15 years old, I did crazy kid things to. They were just mistakes. You know? Kids being kids. My brain was not completely developed yet! I did what Alyssa did, I killed a little child. But so what, I was just a kid and I was taking Prozac. I'm over it now! Kids will be Kids. Other Countries for give Kids.

Perhaps, instead of treating juveniles as adults because of the type of crime they commit, we should look at the SOURCE of why a child is capable of commiting it.

'They knew right from wrong', 'U knew better at that age', regardless what does this have against the fact that their JUVENILE acts do not turn them into adults?! If a juvenile commits a crime it is a JUVENILE crime.

Juveniles have yet to develope morals and value of life, they do not have the experience and perspectives of older people to be judged. Give these juveniles a chance to do so before you judge them and overlook 'abuse/neglect/mental illness/bad influences/etc.' which could have lead to it and just sentence them for these crimes.

I don't know about seperate systems but sorry juveniles should be tried as the juveniles that they are. Juveniles convicted of grave crimes shouldn't necessarily be put in with those who've commited petty ones, but they don't belong in adult prison either cause they are not equipped to handle juveniles clearly, a proper prison system needs to be developed where rehabilitation can be the course of action.

If given life it should be with parole or have a max. set like 25yrs, life w/o parole is an uncivilized sentence of juveniles and the US should end this now.

t.ia,
You're just trying to be funny right? Her crime was determined as an adult crime. Juveniles don't cut a little girls throats and stab them to death. This crime was not stealing a candy bar from the corner market. She cut that child's throat from EAR TO EAR, just to see what it felt like. Alyssa had a good childhood with her grandparents and counseling on a regular basses. She did not have contact with her mother or father. So you're nonsense is just that nonsense! JUVINILE CRIME, LOL. And guess what Alyssa is being Charged as an ADULT. So it doesn't matter what anyone's OPINION is, Alyssa carried out a cold blooded murder and because of her adult decision she is being tried as an ADULT........
PS That's to bad if you don't like the US legal system, go back to your Country!

No, Sandy, I am serious but I figure you're too much of a dope to realize that! There are no adult crimes, a crime is a crime and in the form of the age(juvenile, adult) of the person who committed it.

t.ia, I don't know you and I don't care to. You are not the brightest light on the block? A crime is determined how it was committed. There are 10 criteria guide lines that a juvenile crimes is based on in order for the juvenile crime to stay in juvenile courts vs adult court. The Crime has everything to do with the way the Crime will be Heard for the defense. What is Your point Alyssa is being tried as an adult because of the way the crime was committed. CNN released the update information on Alyssa case Tuesday.

you must be the one that thinks antidepressants are to blame for the worlds problems

Indeed on the topic of other countries, in most european countries life (max sentencing) is usually ineffective, and prisoners have chance of parole after serving an amount of time (after 10 years in Belgium (16 years for an repeat offender), after 10-15 years in Switzerland, after 12 years in Finland, after 15-18 years in Germany, after 18-22 years in France for example) Personally my favorite justice system model is Germany's.

SOme south American countries (Colombia, Ecudor, Venezuala, Brazil) have maximum prison sentences of 30 years.

In some countries people under 21 and in most under 18 are sentenced differently than adults and have maximum sentences allowed under law. Some were mentioned , but what do we have here... offenders under 21 can be sentenced to a maximum of 10 years in Germany, a maximum of 15 years usually, 10-15 years in Finland, 20 years in Austria, and no life sentence for people under 21 in England, in the Neatherlands the penalty for an offender under 16 is 1 year imprisonment and 2 years under 18, To 20 years in France (under 16, parole after 10 years).

I don't like life in prison sentences they should rid of it, instead I like maximum sentences (ie.18-21-25) with parole also, that doesnt mean everyone has to be released, if the term is up and the prisoner is unfit for release then they can continue to be held. And (8-10-12) for youth offenders, I think they should be held atleast till an adult (19-20).
Definatly our justice system is important to society, in order to be civil and keep our communities peaceful at the same time. Taxe dollars spent on making people worse and letting them out in the communities does not benifet anyone. Say someone commits a robbery and they are released and commit a murder when it could have been avoided by rehabilitating them? Hard punishment is what seems logical but it's not what does the job best. Mild approaches are more successful in preventing new crimes instead of the cycle of victimazation. Some people can change on there own, some people don't need rehabilitation but some people need it. Repeat offenders don't choose to be that way they have a mental disorder and need help for it change.

I don't have a problem with taxes, they help improve our communities and soceity as a whole. And yes, the type of economic and social issues that can cause violence don't occur as often when you have socialism and liberalism.
And I don't get adult crime either, i have never heard of such a thing in my life if a youth commits the crimes then its a youth version. If a child steals should he be tried as an adult and sentenced as a theif? It does not follow.

I found a finnish study here: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/7504/1364
(I also found that a alot of the crimes commited there are by mental patients who are being prescribed with pills also.)

It found that youth crime is linked to phsychatric morbidity, depression, psychosis, personality disorder, and substance dependence. The number of inmates who had at least one hospitalization/mental treatment is significantly higher than those who had not.

The study concluded: "Our findings reflect the failure of healthcare systems and emphasise the necessity for early screening of mental disorders in delinquents."

(Morbidity means a diseased state, disability, or poor health if you don't know I had to look it up.)

What purpose is served by determining the initial cause behind it all in cases where a juvenile offender is charged with a violent felony or a felony sex offense? Is it so that people can say they know where it all began? Will it change the events that led to the arrest? Is it going to help anyone sleep better at night?

I doubt it.

There's not a whole lot of sense in the lot of us going back and forth about the whys and whats with a system that has already started its standard procedure and is unlikely to do anything otherwise in regards to this case. Ms. Bustamante chose to kill the neighbor girl and has more or less sealed her fate with the early admission that she did it because she wanted to see what it felt like to kill another human being. We shouldn't try to fool ourselves into thinking that knowing what broke in this particular defendant will change how the jury decides this case is to end its journey through the legal system.

concepcionimmaculada, Well said, I completely agree with you. There is nothing anyone can do that will change what happened to Elisabeth. Alyssa will never get the chance to see what it feels like to kill another human being ever again. Alyssa more or less did sealed her fate. Unfortunately she sealed Elizabeth's fate as well.

Only God knows what was going in this child's home.

Yes I feel sympathy for the little girl who lost her life, but this child deserves empathy from the rest of us too. No one has the right to judge her unless they know what it's like to be a mental person.

greta, I have been keeping up with this story, I didn't hear that Alyssa was diagnosed with any mental illness other than depression. I was wondering were you found the information that Alyssa was diagnosed as a Mental Person? The Judge that pleaded not guilty for her decided that when her evaluation came back that Alyssa was mentally stable and sane to stand trial as an adult. Depression isn't a defense for murder. Greta can you let us know where you read that Alyssa was a mental person?

I am not defending her but it is obvious there is something mentally wrong here. Someone does not kill just to see how it feels. One in a normal state of mind should be able to understand the consequences of something so horrible.

Sandy,
dear Sick Sandy,
Please look up "mental person" in the DSM IV or legal doc's and get back to me. This greta is really a 400 pound anchor baby in disguise. What is the diagnosis for "mental person" Please let me know............. I would imagine that "greta" told you about "mental people" and she is really smart. Just like frosted flakes. (and she would be the most frostiest flakes of them all!!!!!) They're GREEEEEEAT. No English spelling errors here so I guess I'll live for one more night where I won't be beaten with rubber tubes.!?!??!?!

TROLL just so you know and I am sure you do, it's me Sandy.
Correction it is (spit.)

@To: Rocki
:0 ... why? no need to insult

What a messed up family. Shes just a kid, its not like she had a full concept of what she did.

I think the prozac made her do it.

I don't think most people who kill for "no reason" just choose to out of the blue, they develope that way, the factors of a person and their life that are in account of responsibility leaves the person less so. In my opinion you have normal offenders, youth violence, and the abnormal offenders, compulsive and partially responsible.

Family and mental issues, abuse, easy access to guns, peer influence, kids who kill almost always have these factors in common. Ever heard of feral children? If a child is not exposed to language from an early age they will not learn it. 65% of orphan graduates end up in prison, childhood abuses have the potential to erode areas of the frontal lobe leaving antisocial behaviour come more naturally.

There's something coercive about a person's enviornmental, genetic and neuorbiological factors that shapes people this way.

Really pradaa that's exactly what murderers do, they kill for no reason. Are you telling us that there are murders committed by murderers that are for good reasons? Serial Killers start Young, Just like Alyssa did.

Prozac, and ridiculous excuses have no weight is Alyssa's fate. Alyssa is being tried as an ADULT. END OF STORY.

Mental Person? Rocki (greta) you're an idiot. You are not very smart are you? Read between the lines Ding Bat! That's why I asked you where you got the information? Like everyone doesn't know that all this crap that is Posted on here is YOU.

From your Comments it doesn't look like you're Lobotomy has helped you MUCH........Rocki just ask the nurse for more Crayons, I am pretty sure you can't hurt yourself in your rubber room.

Findings from the study I cited above also include: Prisoners are more likely to have serious mental disorders than the general population.
The number of inmates with at least one hospital treatment increased significantly compared with the general population.
The most alarming finding is the increase of psychoses in young prisoners who had inpatient treatments.

I found Dominic Culpepper here ]

http://www.eji.org/eji/files/20071017cruelandunusual.pdf

The Mexican Supreme Court ruled that life in prison without the possibility of parole is unconstitutinal because it is cruel and unusual punishment. I also found some info on these places that have not been mentioned: In austrailia a life sentence is usually a 25 year term and under 18 must have a minimum term set. In greece the maximum sentence is 25 years with parole after 16 years (20 years in some cases). And it is right some countries have maximum sentences for people under 21, in belgium it is 10 years, in belarus it is 15 years, in denmark it is 15 and 8 years under 18, in estonia it is 20 years and 8 years under 18.
In Finland life in prison is 10-12 years and over, unconditional sentences are halved often and young offenders serve one third of it. The crime policy has not resulted in an increase in crime infact it has even declined. Finnish justice officials think the "tough on crime" policies in the United States is folly, if you go further in the American direction, "you get the American problems, too."
I also found a US study which found that prisoners who had college education are much less likely to end up back in prison than those who had not(and I already mentioned homicide and sexual related offences are far unlikely to reoffend)

I think that the second poster of greta is a poser and that the poser is a poser of rocki? I think "sandy the dildo polisher" is righhht, she doesn't seem to understand other posts well I understand the one by prada but she clearly doesn't.

Let's see some factors killers have in common: 1) They tend to come from unstable families 2) As children they are typically abandoned by their fathers and raised by domineering mothers 3) Their families often have criminal, psychiatric and alcoholic histories 4) They have high rates of suicide attempts 5) Emotional, physical or sexual abuse 6) More than 60 percent wet their beds beyond the age of 12

Further studies have suggested that such events as parental neglect, cruelty or trauma in a person's childhood can result in "homicidal proneness".

emi, Not sure why you keep posting about other Countries? No one Cares! Other Countries and their laws don't mean a thing the USA. Who cares about other Countries, we live in the US. The US LAW has found that Alyssa is being tried as an ADULT; Due to the way the crime was committed therefor our Country, the one you live in USA says Alyssa is now is being Sentenced as an ADULT. I don't know why you are wasting your time on trying to prove something that doesn't have anything to do with the USA? Like I said no one Cares.

Rocki it's over move on. End of story for Alyssa.

Yes, I believe anti-depressants had a major role in this crime. The point of getting to the bottom of it all is to learn what we can do to limit or Prevent that and how we can improve with problems coming from mental health, the enviornment they grew up in and whatever. @Sandy Missouri has a dual jurisdiction which means that she could end up being sentenced as a juvenile and by no reason, she means without motive.

According to Robin Karr-Morse the roots of violence develope early on in our lives, no one biological or sociological factor by itself predisposes violent behavior. The research underscores that it is the interaction of multiple factors which may set the stage. In other words, it may not be due to negative experiences, a brain disorder, mistakes in parenting, or genetics alone, but the result of a cumulative effect of a combination of factors.

Kip Kinkel was on Ritalin and Prozac when he fatally shot his parents and went on shooting spree at his school.

Columbine High School shooter Eric Harris had been on the anti-depressent Zoloft and was on Luvox at the time of the shooting. It is said that side-effects of these drugs include increased aggression, loss of remorse, depersonalization and mania.

Flemming Nielsen was on Prozac when he shot 4 students before killing himself. In his suicide note he had wrote about "how he couldn't handle life anymore, and that he wanted to kill some people before ending his own life."

Jokela High School shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking anti-depressents, on his Youtube profile he listed one of his interests as "hatred for humanity".

Winnenden school shooter Tim Kretschmer was on anti-depressents, before the shooting he had met with his therapist and talked of his growing anger and violent urges.

http://ssristories.com/index.php

t.ia, No Alyssa is being tried as an adult. The Court has already ruled that. That's the answer to that question, in regards to Alyssa being an adult offender. You should read what I posted in my earlier post, the criteria is explained. A juvenile's crime has to meet 10 criteria in order to stay in the Court System as a juvenile crime, Alyssa failed all 10. Who are WE in regards to mental health? Alyssa has been evaluated as Sane... Alyssa's crime was premeditated and she was found to be quite Sane at the time of her crime.
emi, Know one really cares. Alyssa doesn't have a brain disorder?....Your opinion is sweet.

Columbine High School shooter Eric Harris had been on the anti-depressent Zoloft and was on Luvox at the time of the shooting. It is said that side-effects of these drugs include increased aggression, loss of remorse, depersonalization and mania.
Flemming Nielsen was on Prozac when he shot 4 students before killing himself. In his suicide note he had wrote about "how he couldn't handle life anymore, and that he wanted to kill some people before ending his own life."
Jokela High School shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking anti-depressents, on his Youtube profile he listed one of his interests as "hatred for humanity".
Winnenden school shooter Tim Kretschmer was on anti-depressents, before the shooting he had met with his therapist and talked of his growing anger and violent urges.

and many more incidents connceted to anti-depressants at the link above.

What's your point? A Few people took antidepressants and were violent. What does that have to do with Alyssa? Nothing. Who are you trying to convince and of what? I don't care. Alyssa going to prison. That's all she wrote!

“However, friends of Eric's told reporters that he had stopped taking the drug shortly before the rampage.”
Klebold was not taking antidepressants? So what do you think made him kill with Eric?

The autopsy revealed that he had taken Fontex before the incident, Flemming was not prescribed any antidepressants, he took any drug he could get.

Pekka-Eric Auvinen
had irregularly taken SSRI-antidepressants one year PRIOR to his death. Reason for the massacre Pekka was brutally bullied in school.

Igor Wolf later reported that, when asked why 17-year-old Tim Kretschmer,did this, the gunman replied "For fun, because it is fun."

He was said to have been mobbed by fellow pupils and teachers, suffered fits of depression, had few friends and had visited a psychiatric clinic at least five times to receive treatment.
Eight of his victims were teenage girls; three were women teachers. Unconfirmed reports suggested that Kretschmer had developed a phobia about women after being repeatedly called a failure by a woman teacher, who allegedly told him that he would "end up as a dustman" if his performance at school did not improve. There was never anything concluive that Kretschmer was on antidepressants, he was however treated for depression 5 times.

Just to make this clear, my previous post "the roots of violence develope early on in our lives, no one biological or sociological factor by itself predisposes violent behavior. The research underscores that it is the interaction of multiple factors which may set the stage. In other words, it may not be due to negative experiences, a brain disorder, mistakes in parenting, or genetics, but the result of a cumulative effect of a combination of factors." is according to Robin Karr-Morse, not my opinion.

Sandy it doesn't look I care does it, not my problem. 'Serial Killers start Young' uhhhh no.

FYI: At the time of Eric Harris's death he had Luvox in his system. He had been switched to the anti-depressant Luvox from Zoloft after he complained of side-effects to his psychiatrist.
"Kretschmer had been suffering from depression, even attending a clinic and receiving medication for the condition."
Auvinen had irregularly taken anti-depressants before the shooting.
Fontex is SSRI you can't get that without a prescription can you. medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fontex

Cleveland, Ohio - October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazadone.

Red Lake Indian Reservation, Minnesota - March 21, 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, reportedly under the influence of the antidepressant Prozac, went on a shooting rampage at home and at his school, killing nine people and wounding five before committing suicide.

Greenbush, New York - February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Romano had been taking "medication for depression."

Springfield, Oregon - May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his own parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students. He had been on Prozac and Ritalin.

El Cajon, California - March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman was on two antidepressants, Effexor and Celexa, when he opened fire at his California high school wounding five.

Omaha, Nebraska - December 5, 2007: 19-year-old Robert Hawkins killed eight people and wounded five before committing suicide in an Omaha mall. He was under the influence of the drug Valium.

theeffexoractivist.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2487

emi, Your stories are fun, however the information that I have posted is the fact in regards to the 4 examples you have. emi What does any of this have to do with Alyssa? Again Noyhing....Alyssa has been found SANE and is being tried as an Adult. Why don't you try and tell the Court that Alyssa is a child and she won't murder anymore children again. You can explain to the Judge that Prozac made Alyssa cut a littl girls throat from ear to ear. LOL

“However, friends of Eric's told reporters that he had stopped taking the drug shortly before the rampage.”
Klebold was not taking antidepressants? So what do you think made him kill with Eric?

The autopsy revealed that he had taken Fontex before the incident, Flemming was not prescribed any antidepressants, he took any drug he could get.

Pekka-Eric Auvinen
had irregularly taken SSRI-antidepressants one year PRIOR to his death. Reason for the massacre Pekka was brutally bullied in school.

Igor Wolf later reported that, when asked why 17-year-old Tim Kretschmer,did this, the gunman replied "For fun, because it is fun."

He was said to have been mobbed by fellow pupils and teachers, suffered fits of depression, had few friends and had visited a psychiatric clinic at least five times to receive treatment.
Eight of his victims were teenage girls; three were women teachers. Unconfirmed reports suggested that Kretschmer had developed a phobia about women after being repeatedly called a failure by a woman teacher, who allegedly told him that he would "end up as a dustman" if his performance at school did not improve. There was never anything concluive that Kretschmer was on antidepressants, he was however treated for depression 5 times

Sandy & mcr,
I know your stories R funny but I have used my real name and hid behind the Truth and you never have. Sucks to B U.

Love,

Rockireindeer, forever in evolution and I guess U R not strong enough to B there with me.........Oh well, I will shed, maybe One tear.........maybe not.......waste of space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you can see, I am the 666 comment on this story. I think maybe you should educate yourself regarding these drugs.

Michael Harvey, 16, killed 2 and then him self "Harvey was taking anti-depressants, receiving counseling and seemed to be doing well. There never were indications of violent behavior."

16-year-old Jeffrey Weise had "a good relationship" with the grandfather he shot and killed, according to relatives who are struggling to understand what might have pushed the teenager to mass murder and suicide. Weise's relatives "knew he had a problem with depression, and they took him to treatment,". "He was getting counseling." His medication dosage had been increased a week earlier.

Ben Garris, a 16-year-old in Baltimore had been taking anti-depressants when had stabbed his counselor to death.

A 16-year-old battered a man to death; "anti-depressant drug caused a mental abnormality." "The youth killed 59-year-old Gary Belben and attempted to kill his wife at their home in Lucas Road, Colchester, a month after being prescribed Prozac."

In Canada, a 14-year-old girl on anti-depressants killed a three year old boy.

In 2000, T.J. Solomon, 15, opened fire at Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga., while on antidepressants.

10-year-old Tommy Becton in 1996 grabbed his 3-year-old niece as a shield and aimed a shotgun at a deputy. He'd been put on Prozac.

A daughter attempted to hire someone to kill her mother (and after being withdrawn from the drugs reports that even as she was doing it, she didn’t know why).

For every person who seems to benefit from medication for depression or adhd, Dr. Tracy believes there sits a time bomb waiting for the right trigger to explode.

http://naturalmedicine.suite101.com/article.cfm/add_adhd_and_antidepressant_drugs

2004-08-31 Texas: 10 Year Old Kills His Father; On Prozac
2009-12-10 Georgia: 12 Year Old Boy Murders Infant; On Zoloft
2006-08-11 Arkansas: 12 Year Old Kills 11 Year Old Sister; On Zoloft
2001-11-28 South Carolina: 12 Year Old Kills His Grandparents, Sets House on Fire; On Zoloft
2007-04-24 Tennessee: 12 Year Old Boy Threatens to Shoot Others at School; On Wellbutrin
2006-03-24 Washington: 13 Year Old Kills Grandmother; On Prozac
2002-10-07 Texas: 13 Year Old Kills Self at School With a Gun; On Celexa
1999 Colorado: 13 Year Old Kills Mother & Grandmother; On Antidepressants
1995-03-11 Illinois: 14 Year Old Kills his Mother; On Paxil
1994-10-23 Iowa: 14 Year Old Girl Stabs and Kills Her Aunt; On Prozac
1999-09-29 Florida: 14 Year Old Girl Attempts to Kill Mother; On Zoloft
2004-05-03 Montana: 14 Year Old Murders His Mother & 10 Year Old Brother; On Zoloft
2001-03-10 Pennsylvania: 14 Year Old Girl Shoots Classmate at Catholic School; On Paxil
2006-09-14 Oregon: 14 Year Old Girl Kills Friend; On Antidepressants
2010-02-10 Alabama: 14 Year Old Shoots & Kills Another Boy at School; On Antidepressants
2009-03-04 California: 14 Year Old Boy Shoots Into Crowd; Antidepressant WITHDRAWL
1997-05-22 New York: 15 Year Old Commits Murder at Park; On Zoloft
2008-05-26 Texas: 15 Year Old Girl Kills Grandmother; On Paxil
2000-04-18 Tennessee: 15 Year Old Kills His Father; On Paxil
2006-06-29 Virginia: 15 Year Old Kills Store Clerk; On Effexor
2003-01-19 Florida: 15 Year Old Murders His Uncle; On Zoloft
2002-11-14 Texas: 15 Year Old Girl Kills 6 Year Old Brother; On Paxil
2000-03-06 California: 15 Year Old Stabs his Grandmother; On Paxil
1997-10-31 New Jersey: 15 Year Old Kills 11 Year Old Boy; On Paxil
2006-02-15 Tennessee: 15 Year Old Attacks Teacher at School; On Zoloft
2000-11-30 North Carolina: 15 Year Old Girl Shoots Grandfather; On Prozac
2004-09-12 Florida: 15 Year Old Girl Plans to Kill Mother, Brother & Self; On Paxil
1995-10-12 South Carolina: 15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers Then Kills Himself; On Zoloft
1999-04-16 Idaho: 15 Year Old Shoots Fellow Classmate; On Antidepressants
1999-08-25 Illinois: 15 Year Old Boy Kills Father: Injures Mother; On Antidepressants
2005-05-16 Nebraska: 15 Year Old Attempts to Kill Father, Kills Self; Antidepressant WITHDRAWL
1999-10-19 Florida: 16 Year Old Threatens Classmates With Knife; On Prozac
2005-03-06 Idaho: 16 Year Old Girl Kills her Parents; On Zoloft
2006-11-26 Maryland: 16 Year Old PATIENT Kills Nurse; On Prozac
2004-05-28 Arkansas: 16 Year Old Girl Kills her Father; On Prozac
2005-03-02 California: 16 Year Old Kills his 17 Year Old Brother; On Paxil
2004-01-31 Iowa: 16 Year Old Kills the Housesitter, His Counselor & Himself; On Wellbutrin
2000-03-11 Massachusetts: 16 Year Old Girl Kills her Mother, a Psychiatrist; On Wellbutrin
2006-12-06 Indiana: 16 Year Old Attacks Fellow Student With Knife; On Antidepressants
1994-09-09 Kansas: 16 Year Old Kills his Mother & Sister; On Antidepressants
2000-06-20 Louisiana: 16 Year Old Kills his Neighbor; On Antidepressants
2004-09-30 Pennsylvania: 16 Year Old Kills his Mother; On Antidepressants
2004-09-29 California: 16 Year Old Kills Neighbor & Himself; On Antidepressants
2007-09-05 Virginia: 16 Year Old Kills Sister, Attacks Niece; On Antidepressants
2004-03-17 Tennessee: 16 Year Old Boy Kills Deputy Sheriff & Himself; On Antidepressants
2004-01-12 Michigan: 17 Year Old Kills His Two Sisters & His Mother; On Prozac
2007-03-18 Nevada: 17 Year Old Girl Shoots Step-Mother; On Prozac
1999-07-27 Michigan: 17 Year Old Murders Driver of Van; On Prozac
2002-03-28 Texas: 17 Year Old Murders His Friend; On Paxil
2002 Nebraska: 17 Year Old Strangles Other Teen; On Zoloft
1997-03-16 Alabama: 17 Year Old Commits Murder; On Zoloft
2010-03-26 North Carolina: 17 Year Old Attacks Police With a Knife; On Zoloft
1996-05-11 Texas: 17 Year Old Girl Murders Her Father; On Antidepressants
2008-02-29 Texas: 17 Year Old Girl Stabs Friend & Principal at High School; On Antidepressants
2003-02-03 Colorado: 17 Year Old Stabs 91 Year Old Man; On Antidepressants
2010-01-23 Illinois: 17 Year Old Brutally Attacks Woman With Hammer; On Antidepressants
2005-02-16 Colorado: 17 Year Old Kills Father, Had Plotted to Kill Parents; Wellbutrin WITHDRAWL
2005-07-02 Washington: 17 Year Old Murders School Tennis Coach; Antidepressant WITHDRAWL
2009-03-10 North Carolina: 17 Year Old Girl Kills her Mother; Antidepressant WITHDRAWL
2009-03-08 Pennsylvania: 18 Year Old Murderd His Father; On Prozac
1998-01-06 Texas: 18 Year Old Girl Kills Boyfriend & Self; On Prozac
2000-10-04 Alabama: 18 Year Old Kills Parents, Injures 3 Siblings; On Prozac
2004-01-25 Florida: 18 Year Old Kills Research Analyst; On Prozac
2007-09-13 Alabama: 18 Year Old Girl Attempts Murder; On Prozac
2007-02-08 Illinois: 18 Year Old Murders His Father; On Wellbutrin
1998-12-02 Michigan: 18 Year Old Kills 5 Family Members; On Wellbutrin
2003-01-07 Maryland: 18 Year Old Murders His Best Friend; On Effexor
2009-07-31 Louisiana: 18 Year Old Shoots Deputy; On Prozac and Zoloft
2006-07-18 Ohio: 18 Year Old Kills Girlfriend, Then Self; On Antidepressants
2006-08-23 California: 18 Year Old Kills Mother & Self; Antidepressant WITHDRAWL
2006-08-30 North Carolina: 19 Year Old Shoots Two Students, Kills his Father; On Celexa
2000-01-22 California: 19 Year Old Murders Friend's Parents; On Prozac
1993-04-02 Oklahoma: 19 Year Old Student Kills his Piano Teacher; On Prozac and Paxil
2009-04-11 California: 19 Year Old Kills Two Neighbors; On Effexor & Celexa
1996-02-17 Iowa: 19 Year Old Girl Kills her Former Boyfriend; On Antidepressants
2006-09-19 Washington DC: 19 Year Old Kills his Psychiatrist; Antidepressant WITHDRAWL

www.ssristories.com/ The site includes 51 cases of school shootings/incidents, and over 700 homicides (that have made it to the media.)

Rocki your number says that you are working with Satin.
emi, Who Cares about a couple of people that you are trying to connect with antidepressants and violence. There are 100's of 1000's of people that have murdered and are serial killers without taking antidepressants that are just Nuts. Alyssa, she's just NUTS..... Alyssa is going to Prison, because she murdered a little girl and she's NUTS.
Dr. Prusad a Psychiatrist has done studies with children and adults for the last 36 years in regards to the benefits and side effects on his patients on antidepressants.
The success of the medications far out numbered the minimal side effects of the medication. Study shows side effects, but not proven from medication 0.01%

mental drugs are not a cure it's just a short solution. I live in a small country and most of uhh.. mental doctors have committed suicide, dunno how it's like in america. i would like to know if somebody has made study of this in other countries. We have no idea how the brain works, and don't be surprised by of all the crime children have made on mental drugs. It's like drinking and driving.. People get so drunk they dont realise they driving!! Parents stop putting children on drugs, they will become addicted, the solution is called endorfin.. look it up

Svana Kristín, uh yes there has and are studies done on the human brain. It is not called mental drugs, mental doctors. If the doctors that are treating the mentally ill in your country are committing suicide than their nuts. Brain research can pin point where the diseased part of the brain is. What would you suggest for schizophrenia? Schizophrenia can't be cured, the illness has to be treated with medication for the patient life time. In many mental illnesses the brain has a chemical imbalance. Just like you would treat a person that is insulin dependent, a mentally ill person is treated the same (medication). With the exception of therapy. So the bottom line Rocky is to use your user name....

Depressive disorders often co-occur with anxiety disorders and substance abuse.5
Major Depressive Disorder
Major Depressive Disorder is the leading cause of disability in the U.S. for ages 15-44.3
Major depressive disorder affects approximately 14.8 million American adults, or about 6.7 percent of the U.S. population age 18 and older in a given year.1
While major depressive disorder can develop at any age, the median age at onset is 32.5
Major depressive disorder is more prevalent in women than in men.6
Dysthymic Disorder
Symptoms of dysthymic disorder (chronic, mild depression) must persist for at least two years in adults (one year in children) to meet criteria for the diagnosis. Dysthymic disorder affects approximately 1.5 percent of the U.S. population age 18 and older in a given year.1 This figure translates to about 3.3 million American adults.2
The median age of onset of dysthymic disorder is 31.1

There is no magic bullet; evidence indicates that the available antidepressants are equally effective. All of the drugs get 70 percent of people better within six to ten weeks, according to David Dunner, M.D., director of the Center for Anxiety and Depression at the University of Washington. However, "better" does not necessarily mean symptom-free. "There isn't any difference among the drugs regarding that."

Where the drugs do differ, however, is in the side effects they create, especially in the long haul. Side effects have become a central consideration in the new approach to depression treatment.

Long-term treatment is also critical. Data indicate that individuals should be treated for at least nine months following their first acute episode. If they have chronic depression—an episode lasting two years or more—they need to be treated for two years after remission. "And if they have recurrent depression marked by multiple episodes, perhaps forever," notes Dunner.

However, the average duration of a prescription is about 100 days. "It's a serious problem," Dunner points out. "We're not treating people nearly long enough."

Nor is treatment aggressive enough, according to Alpert: "Really pushing for remission may mean using two antidepressants at once or pushing the dose up higher than one would normally use."
Evidence indicates that all of the available antidepressants on the market have a high efficacy rate. The only area where the drugs do differ, is in the side effects they create. Side effects have become a central consideration in the new approach to depression treatment.

By Hara Estroff Marano, published on March 01, 2003 - last reviewed on July 16, 2009
Years ago, Prozac launched a revolution. It rendered depression a disorder that was finally safely treatable. The torrent of prose hailing Prozac and its chemical kin eventually made the mental illness dinner-party discourse. Today, a much quieter revolution in treatment is taking place. It, too, has its origins in Prozac and its siblings, the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.

Fifteen years of experience with reasonably safe treatments has given the mental health world a new understanding of the disorder and its true course: It's no longer enough to merely treat depression; it's necessary to banish it.

Increasingly, the aim of treatment is not to make patients better but to make them completely well. In the absence of full remission from an episode of depression, the disorder tends to recur. What's more, studies now show that the longer patients remain sick, the harder it is for them to recover completely.

"It became very clear over the past several years that people who don't achieve full remission are at high risk for relapse and for doing poorly," says Jonathan Alpert, M.D., Ph.D., associate director of the depression research program at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. "Even if they don't have a full relapse, they don't do well in social and occupational function

i knew who alyssa was, she had been dating my bestfriend, eddie. but then eddie was put away for his own suicidal attempt, it has been over a year since he has been obtained. maybe this was a motive, not sure. i know she loved eddie n i still have notes that she wrote to him. she lost the love of her life, not knowing when she was going to see him again,n she was angry... when i found out about this i was shocked... its just not something she would do...

Rocki you don't spell Lexi with two x's

Sandy, no one cares if you don't know what you're talking about or if you can't read or process anything, or that you're retarded. Emi is not talking to you, no one cares about you caring about other comments or not. It took about a minuit to find that toxicology reports had confirmed Culumbine shooter Eric Harris had "theroputic levels of Luvux in his system". Analysts, such as psychiatrist Peter Breggin, have argued that the medication may have contributed to Harris's actions.

Sandy must have a 'selective ear.' Just ignore her.

Prozac is listed in the Physician’s Desk Reference Family Guide with “violent behaviour” as a side effect. The Physicians Desk Reference states that antidepressants can cause mania, psychosis, abnormal thinking, confusion, paranoia, hostility, agitation, aggression, delusions, akathisia, hallucinations, abnormal dreams and a host of other adverse neuropsychiatric effects. Withdrawal also has side effects. Preda and Bowers reported that thousands of people a year in the U.S. enter a hospital with antidepressant-associated mania and/or psychosis.

TIA, You need to go to another Website...Like Sesame Street, you could really out smart the toddlers there. You're about as intelligent as your spelling i.e..... (MINUIT)and that's not saying much. LOL
“However, friends of Eric's told reporters that he had stopped taking the drug shortly before the rampage.”
Klebold was not taking antidepressants? So what do you think made him kill with Eric?
Oh TIA(ROCKI) You Brain Surgeon you, Columbine shooter Eric Harris there was no evidence directly supporting antidepressants in Eric blood stream. You're a LIAR!!!!!

Now for you EMI, You're just a Liar....Here is what the Physicians Desk Reference says about PROZAC.

What is Prozac?
Prozac belongs to a class of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). It is used in adults for the treatment of major depressive disorder, panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and bulimia. In children and adolescents, Prozac is used to treat major depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Prozac Weekly is approved for treating major depression.

What is the most important information I should know about Prozac?
Antidepressant medicines MAY increase suicidal thoughts in some children, teenagers, and young adults within the first FEW months of treatment.

Individuals being treated with Prozac and their caregivers should watch for any change in symptoms or any new symptoms that appear suddenly—especially agitation, anxiety, hostility, panic, restlessness, extreme hyperactivity, and suicidal thinking or behavior—and report them to the doctor immediately. Be especially observant at the beginning of treatment or whenever there is a change in dose.

If you get a rash or hives while taking Prozac, call your doctor right away because this can be a sign of a serious medical condition.

What should I avoid while taking Prozac?
Return to top

Prozac may cause you to become drowsy or less alert and may affect your judgment. Therefore, driving or operating dangerous machinery or participating in any hazardous activity that requires full mental alertness is not recommended.
Do not drink alcohol while taking Prozac.

What are possible food and drug interactions associated with Prozac?
Return to top
If Prozac is taken with certain other drugs, the effects of either could be increased, decreased, or altered. It is especially important to check with your doctor before combining Prozac with the following: alcohol, alprazolam, other antidepressants, antipsychotics, carbamazepine, clozapine, desipramine, diazepam, digitoxin, drugs that affect the central nervous system, flecainide, haloperidol, imipramine, linezolid, lithium, narcotic painkillers, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (such as aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, and ketoprofen), phenytoin, pimozide, propafenone, sleep aids, St. John's wort, sumatriptan, terfenadine, tryptophan, tramadol, vinblastine, and warfarin.

Sandy,
Yes, I think it's very informative that we are arguing about anti-depressants and my comment is "666." I would say that this very topic is in league with the devil himself, but I'm sure you are quite aquainted with him. So Bien noche's, sianarya suckers. I don't remember asking you what you thought......must be my mistake..

Everyone must be a liar because the FACTS aren't what Sandy wants to hear.. how cutteee. Sandy go ahead pick out what supports your view, it's clear you haven't researched past the first page on your search engine or you may have known Emi's information was pretty much copy and pasted from credible sources.

Rocki must be workin' with Satin.. huh the most Evil kind of sheets of them all.

mcr, Sandy & the rest of you dumbasses,
I'm going to take a break from the "truth" and get a year long mani-pedi in France (I'm going back to Europe, I really liked it.) and I will check up on you on 2011 to see if you've gotten any smarter. I don't plan on holding my breath. (PS, Rocki is my little bad dog's name...........so in essence, you have all been arguing with a dog.......what if a dog knew all the answers but couldn't speak?............)

People can we behave as adults and discuss the topic without getting on a personal and childish level, it's more annoying than just ignoring. Personally, I just like to say what I want without posting to others but in response to Sandy:

The coroner confirmed that theroputic levels of Luvox was in Harris's system at the time of his autopsy; withdrawl also has side-effects so either way it could have contributed to his actions. So there is no point in trying to deny it and resorting to calling people liars, if you look it up you can see that's not the case.

Exhibit A: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Physicians+Desk+Reference+Prozac+violent+behaviour+mania%2C+psychosis&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Eric Harris's autopsy stated he had low therapeutic levels of Luvox in his system. If he had stopped taking Luvox it wasn't long enough for it to have washed out. (about 14 days for a 60mg/day prescription) Sorry to burst your bubble Sandy I may mistake but I am honest :)

Paul Marsh, 17, was on Paxil when he brutally murdered his 14-year-old friend.

Jeff Franklin, 17, was on Prozac when he axed three of his siblings and both of his parents to death.

Brian Storey, 17, was prescribed with Zoloft, 5 days later he murdered a women. A neurologist testified Brian had a manic reaction and that he had told him "it was like being in a dream."

http://ssristories.com/show.php?item=977

That is really intersting... look at how dialated Alyssa's pupils are in the pictures... that is what pupils look like when people are on psychedelic drugs..

It is right there is something not right here... this 15 year old commits this crime...when Prozac can cause the kind of things the Physicians Desk Reference lists then it she must have had some sort of reaction to this drug..

It even states that Luvox and Effexor.. Prozac's siblings... can cause homicidal ideations.... many of the antidepressants have black box warnings which is next up from a out right ban.... for suicidal behaviour... There are hundreds of cases of antidepressant induced violence..

All of you still ranting about antidepressants.. how do you explain the MILLIONS of people who are on these medicines and have NEVER broken a law? NEVER killed a person? Do you not consider the positives from these medicine while your scurrying to find a way to blame the medicine on why evil people to evil things?

These medicines have saved millions of us from an illness that leaves us without hope. Can you imagine being crippled with depression to where you can't leave your bed? Can't feed or bathe yourself? Can you imagine laying there just waiting for yourself to die already? Then along comes a medicine, a medicine that gives you back your life.. that frees you from the grips of depression. Following that first gleam of hope, come the doubters.. the people that haven't had to deal with depression. The people who want to take your life away by banning the very medicine that helps you and why?

Because somewhere, some lawyer decided that in order to get their client off of some murder charge they'd blame the very medicine that helps you and countless others.

I think people need to take a step back and see the big picture. How many has the medicines helped compared to those who use it as an excuse to murder?

For that matter, how do ANY of you know that AB had been taking her medicines correctly? You know, not skipping them, taking them every day on time in order for the medicine to help her as it was meant to? None of ya know.

Its not the medicine,

There are many of us that know that these drugs help more than they harm. But they don't care. They want an excuse as to why a 15 year would kill a 9 year old. They want to rationalize it. They want to understand it. I get that. But, what they really need to get is that some people are just born evil. Alyssa is one of them. And yes, most of us also realize that just because she was prescribed Prozac, doesn't mean she was taking them or taking them right. Just because it says she was "on" them, doesn't necessaryily make it a fact. And there are side effects with every medicine. One of my new asthma inhalers said I could become depressed. Not gonna stop cause just like my meds for bipolar, I need my asthma meds to live.

And yes, there are millions of us that know what it is like to not be able to function. But, some people just don't care. They want to be right no matter what.

Also, agreeing with rockki or whatever she wants to g by, is a sure sign you should probably seek help. Who in their right mind is happy to be comment 666?!?!?! Oh that's right, rocking is. And its pretty obvious she isn't in her right mind.

So, its not the medicine, ignore rocking and her multiple personalities. She needs help and fast. As does Alyssa. Hopefully she will get the help and meds that she needs in prison, cause that's where she is going.

You might want to lay off the sauce for a day or two and sober up long enough to remember what your kids look like B-4 you leave planet earth, it's Rockki, not "rocking." I can tell you are soused. Please have mcr correct from her Medicaid funded wheelchair for 600 lb. anchor babies, but not sure I have a lot of spelling errors tonight. Please don't whip me with plumbing pipe, spelling NAZI's. (you will never live that one down, mcr, king of like poetic justice, more ironic than irony itself, please report me for harrassing you for spelling errors after you told me to kill myself!!!!)

marie heck,
It is the medication (drugs) please educate yourself. There are 7 fold more people in prison than in 1970, before SSRI's were invented and America sold out to the drug cartel for cheap labor. If you studied economics rather than Little Debbie's and Fashion Bug, you would know that society is not meant to have all people employed. A certain number have to be non-functional. But what happens when that number is greater than the functional people? If you ever felt like you had to face a crisis in your life, what about when all these people with these diagnosed mental illnesses couple up with the aging population of the baby boomers couple up with the for profit healthcare system of the United States? Not really sure if I can make it to work today.....feeling a little bi-polar...but wait...you and mcr don't work....you don't keep our world moving....you have nothing inside of yourself to give. God forbid the evil Rockki is allowed to walk the earth with her terrible ideas........hahaha...this little piggy is laughing all the way home!!!!

Rockki,

Not like I care, but I'm not on the "sauce", unlike you. And if your not, maybe you should be. I have no clue what is wrong with you other than you really need help. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe there is something else to blame for the spike in crimes than SSRI's? Why do you keep insisting that its the drugs fault? Maybe you should really think about seeking help. Don't know if its possible to help someone as far gone as you, but I would still look into it if I was you. And I work. I work just as hard as the next person. Just because I'm a stay at home mom doesn't mean I don't work. Tell that to the thousands of stay at home moms and dads and see what happens. All you have in you is filth, hate, and stupidity. You are no better than I am so stop pretending and thinking you are.

And your right, a certain number of people do have to be non-functional, and your one of them. Also, I do not eat little Debbie snacks nor is there a fashion bug close to where I live. I have faced many crisis's (sure that's not how you spell it, but oh well) aand I have overcome all of them, on and off of my meds. But at no time have I ever killed anyone or wanted to kill anyone to see what it felt like. I was on prozac from the time I was 12 til just after I turned 14 and it never did anything like this to me. And I have known several others who have taken it with and without other meds, but they have never killed anyone. So, I do not believe it is ALL the medications fault. Yes, true they can have an adverse affect in some, but they don't in all. And once again, where is the proof she was even taking them?!?!?!??.?

But think what you want. Its obvious your delusional from your comments. You say your 43 and such a wonderful role model for your daughter *huge eye roll* but yet you insist on fighting with mcr, who isn't even commenting anymore. You really should tell the voices in your head to stop fighting. But then again, you wouldn't have anyone to talk to if they stopped fighting so maybe ya'll should keep it up.

Now, go back to your room or they aren't gonna let you enjoy arts and crafts tomorrow. And don't forget to stay away from the glue, no one likes the glue eaters.

PS my husbands Droid must know your nuts cause it keeps wanting to put rocking instead of rockki. You are way off you rocker, that's for sure. Go back to "Rome" and leave the comments to the saner ones.

Yikes,
Guess I hit the nail on the head, really hate when I'm right. Wasn't expecting all that but Oh well. C'est la vie. Can't stop progress. Sorry, honey, I'm not on any sauce and I don't ever see or hear things that are not there, unlike you.

There is a mass of evidence that show antidepressents can have bizarre effects on the mind. Prozac influenced this crime whether you can comprehend that or not, cleary the reactions it has on the brain can induce a number of effects.

Some think violence can be traced back all the way to the womb, with factors such as harmful substances ingested by the mother and maternal stress during pregnancy, early maternal rejection, lack of connection with caregivers, lack of consistency among caregivers in early life, inneffective dicipline, severe neglect, certain temperament with a chaotic environment. With factors in certain combinations and with certain dispositions, there can be problems later.

And of course, not all children who come from bad situations develope into sociopaths but here is one theory of mine: the wiring of the brain is distorted and the defense mechnism considers the outside world a threat to aid in survival but of course this is all subconscious brain function, and then survival of the fittest might why they develope.

but ehh, that's just one thought.

"Guess I hit the nail on the head, really hate when I'm right." More like you should hit yourself in the head. Your not right about anything, but keep telling yourself that you are if it makes you feel better. Once again I say to you. Seek. Help. Immediately. If not for you and the others in this world, then for your daughter.

And that's just scary if your not on drugs or drinking and your still so delusional. Help, seek it fast.

2005 Virginia: 14-Year-Old stabs cashier to death a little over a month after being put on antidepressants. ssristories.com/show.php?item=792

2002 Michigan: 15-Year-Old sets fire to high school; 2 weeks after being put on Paxil. ssristories.com/show.php?item=2625

2002 Nevada: 17-Year-Old beats two men with a baseball bat while on antidepressants; Psychiatrist says the medication can be dangerous, causing delusions to flare up". ssristories.com/show.php?item=182

15-Year-Old girl had history of fire starting while on Paxil; cut her little brothers throat and burried him in a shallow grave she had dug in 2002. ssristories.com/show.php?item=228

16-Year-Old Walter Smith raped and killd 22 year old sister and beats 2 year old with a sledge hammer in 2007- had no memory of the incident; Mother says her son had no history of violence but said he was on medication for depression.

marie heck,
Well I guess you are right. I'm delusional. I don't really live here with my daughter and husband. My father didn't really walk in front of a train when I was 13 years old. I don't get up everyday.

What would you suggest I do with my delusional problems, as they do not exist?

Please let me know. You said I should seek help immediately. What kind of help shoud I seek? Can you refer me to someone? (It would be very helpful is they specialize in the delusional.)

Wow, what reality like marie heck?

*huge eye roll* OK rockki you win. I am so beyond tired trying to argue with you. I really do believe you have a problem. Look back to some of your posts from a few months ago. You were no where near this psychotic. And bam! Your crazy! You insist on attacking people (even though some of them are no longer posting on here) and you go on and on like a mad woman about meds. So yes, I do believe your delusional. But you win. You can have this story all to yourself and your multiple personalities. It is of no great loss to me. Alyssa is going to prison, as she should, and hopefully there she will get the help she so desperately needs.

So,
marie heck, 20 years old and addicted to anti-deppressants, you confirm that Alyssa is going to prison, 3 months before her court date? You must be the prosecuting attorney. Please send me your Crystal Ball so that I can prepare for tomorrow. She should never go to prison. As I was raised by parents given 50+ psyche med's during the 80's and I have never decapitated anyone or wished to do so, because I am female. So get on it all you want....SSRI's are pot and not much else. Come to my house for Halloween!?!?!??

I guess no comment.

Rockki,

Just to clarify a few things for your delusional mind. I am not 20, I am 25. I am not, nor have I ever been addicted to anti-depressants. I am not even on anything for my bipolar nor have I been since September. Where do you think she is going, to Disneyland? She admitted to killing a girl " just to see what it felt like". Meds or no meds, she is going to prison. As for the rest of your little tirade, I have no effing clue what your talking about. Who gives a crap about what meds your parents were or weren't on. Your an idiot and your posts prove it. They make absolutely no sense! "As I was raised by parents who were given 50+ psych meds in the 80's and have never decapitated anyone or ever wished to do so, because I am female." Wtf are you even talking about?!?!?!? Wait, don't answer that. Your response is sure to be just as stupid as all the rest of your comments.

So, once again. I'm done. If your gonna insult me from now on, at least get it right. 25 not 20. Not on any meds. Not delusional or psychotic like you. You and all your personalities can have this story. Its like trying to argue with a revolving door. Your an idiot and you seriously should seek some very good professional help for your delusions.

Oh and I'm sorry, with all your personalities, you should have Halloween covered. Your like all the scariest and most idiotic things ever thought of rolled into one big psycho package.

Good bye. Wished I could say it was nice knowing you, but then that would be lying and lying isn't very nice.

There was also Christopher Pittmen who was on zoloft when he set his grandparents house on fire, Joe Seislag who killed his mom and younger sisters with a knife while on prozac, Randall Robbins who strangled his girlfriend while on zoloft, Elizabeth Bush who was on antidepressants when she shot at other students, and police reports confirmed that the most recent school shooter Matti Saari had been on SSRIs. And then there was 7 year old Gabreil Myers, had threatend to kill others before he killed himself while on anti-depressants.. and many others.

There is no doubt that the reactions psych meds have on the brain can have distorted and violent effects. The drugs can cause serotonin build-up and brain abnormality.
It's known that people on antidepressants have to be monitored to see how the drug effects them. Its not common but in some people the happiness derived from the drugs is in a form of mania and a high like being on speed, it happens after a while being on the drug and is not common. The other effects they can cause are..

Manic Reaction (Mania, Kleptomania, Pyromania, Dipsomania), Hypomania (poor judgment, impulsivity, etc.), Abnormal Thinking, Hallucinations, Personality Disorder, Amnesia, Agitation, Psychosis, Abnormal Dreams, Emotional Lability (Or Instability), Hostility, Confusion, Delusions, Sleep Disorders... http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/KipKinkel.htm

Most people with a healthy brain chemistry aren't going to turn violent, this is due to various brain chemistry deficiencies and/or disorders.
Bad people are born to bad parents, or they have some other cause for there psychosis.

These drugs have been linked to countless irrational, bizarre, violent behaviour, phsycosis and personality changes. Senseless crimes, many times with no motive.

Take a look at the sites that have been posted here to get a small sample.

Taken from the link from the post above: "When the percentage of these killers that are on Prozac is compared to the percentage of the general public on Prozac, a very disturbing pattern emerges. Though Prozac does indeed help many people suffering from depression, it appears that it does indeed also drive many into homicidal rages."

I wonder how the chemical reactions SSRIs have on the brain are in common with people who expeirance psychotic effects naturally? It seems they can have different effects and reactions on ppls brains, so why because of the brain difference, chemistry and function? These meds can cause changes in people. Maybe the meds that are suppose to help is really what makes some people crazier.

It's Joe Siesling, 17-year-old on prozac who stabbed his mom and sisters to death and beat them with a baseball bat. He had attenended counselling and therapy before the murders and he had told friends about how he wanted to kill family members. Tests of Siesling's blood taken after his arrest found no alcohol, but that he had Prozac in his system.
Cody Posey, 14, was on Paxil when he killed his parents and 13 year old sister.
Daniel Carter, 15, was on Zoloft and Ritilan when he stabbed his uncle to death.
Dustin Lynch, 15, was on Paxil when he beat a 17 year old girl in the head with a bedpost and stabbed her with a kitchen knife.
Lenny Gall, 16, was on Paxil when he killed his mother and a teacher with an axe. His father said Lenny never had a shread of violence in him.
Neil Richardson, 16, was on Paxil when he stabbed and killed his brother.
Sarah Johnson, 16, was on Zoloft when she killed her family.
Jarred Viktor, 16, was on Paxil when he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
Valerie Hall, 16, was on antidepressants when she pushed her mother down a flight of stairs.
Luke Woodham, 16, stabbed and beat his mother to death and then went to highschool and shot 9 people. He had been on Prozac.
Victor Brancaccio, 16, killed an 81 year old women and covered her in spray paint about two months into taking Zoloft.
teenscreentruth.com/psychiatry_drugs_suicide.html

Yes,
Halloween is my favorite holiday (and my husband's-I have kept the same one for 15 years-I accept him and he accepts me) which is probably what you and mcr need to learn. Don't go putting out fires that you didn't start.

These drugs can cause Akathisia, mental agitation that can spark violent thoughts and behavior and induce dissociative reactions.

"I warn you about the dangers of these selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and detail a few of the scores of murders, suicides, and other acts of violence committed by people taking Prozac-like drugs.

...guns and movies don't cause these tragically frequent episodes of inexplicable violence. The real reason is written out on a prescription pad by psychiatrists and doctors all over the country--these monstrous acts were done not by criminals, but ordinary people high on prescription drugs."

— Dr. Julian Whitaker, M.D.

OH MY GOD YOU PEOPLE ARE PATHETIC... Mrs. "???" said she's 14 and knows right from wrong?!? REALLY? So umm WHY do men go to JAIL for RAPE when a 14 or 15 yr old CONSENTS to sex to like a 18 yr old? hmm? YOU PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRATES!! ONLY CHARGE people HOWEVER you FEEL like it! THANK GOD YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT JUDGES! One guy said Alyssa was hot? Well, SHE IS!! Just bc she murdered someone doesn't make her body look different LOL geez stupid people with ideotic comments!! Also there are plenty of people who think being strangled is hot lol not that it has to do with anything but just saying lol. They should reform the juvenile system and USE THIS case for THAT purpose! THAT is the solution; she should be punished for what she did by a system MADE for younger offenders. Another woman on here was SOOO SOO sad like as if every time she watches the news she cries geez. Also, WHY did one person call Elizabeth a HERO??!?? WHAT THE F*&% DID SHE DO?? Die? Wow she is such a good person for dying!! lmao. I mean she could have grown up to be a BAD MOTHER or a killer HERSELF!! WHO THE HECK KNOWS! Why does everyone ASSUME everything!!?! Humans are SOOO damn opinionated!

Now my own spiritual belief says she IS a hero because her soul decided to go through with dying so that it could bring so many people together and change things or wake ppl up or whatever the purpose was for her to go through it. But I just don't like people calling someone something without any logical reason lol; THAT leads to ignorance and ASSUMING and POINTING FINGERS and BAD WRONG THINGS. Just as flawed as religions that are written and regulated by flawed humans that we put blind faith in. If any Christian has a problem Christ said we should aspire to be like him and FORGIVE and would also say to forgive Alyssa bc God the Father will give punishment and people with get what comes to them by lowering their vibrations by not caring about the pain of another but Christ would say NEVER to kill someone even in defense and to let yourself be killed and you would receive everlasting life for being so holy that you cast away physical needs to take in sustainace of the spirit and to not harm another even for a good reason. We humans like to MANIPULATE teachings and ANYTHING to whatever WE WANT it to be which is WRONG! If we all aspired to be Christ-like then the world would be so much better!! and I'm not even Christian in the church's eyes lol. I wonder if the human race even deserves to be saved from annihilation... We are all such selfish beings by nature and blame others and try to force our opinion on others with such force its so disgraceful... It's amazing how any alien race thought the human race is worth sending so many volunteer souls to earth to help raise earth's vibrations as a whole; taking in so much negetivity from all of you... Too bad we all get our memories blocked when we are born so we can experience "this" life to its fullest, or all of you could "see"...

Edward Belben, 15 years old, hit his father 30 times and then stabbed him in the head with a knife, he then attacked his mother with a crowbar and stabbed her in the face. He was on Prozac and had complained to his psychiatrist he felt stuck in a "dream-like state" and that he "didn't feel real."

Kurt Danysh, 17 years old, to police: "I was on Prozac...it's supposed to calm me down and like level me out, but since I got on it, when something bothers me, it bothers me to [the] extreme...I just act differently. I don't have the energy or personality I used to. I spend half the time in a trance. I didn't even realize I did it, until after it was done, and then I realized it. This might sound weird, but it felt like something else, like I had no control [over] what I was doing; like I was left there just holding a gun. It felt like someone else shot him."

September 2009, Massachusetts: 16-year-old John Odgren killed a 15 year old boy in high school bathroom. He was on medication for depression and ADHD.

April 2001, Washington State: 16-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and took 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. According to another student, “Cory was yelling and then he just stopped, looked down at the gun in his hand and woke up.” Cory had been taking Effexor and had no memory of the incident.

March 2006, Seattle, Washington: 13-year-old boy stabbed his grandmother to death after plotting the crime. He was taking Prozac and seeing a counselor.

June 1999: Hugh Blowers, 17 years old, Pearl City, Hawaii; hanged himself in his bedroom after a week on Prozac. His friends described a marked change in character after he had taken only seven Prozac tablets.

June 2000: Orem, Utah; Kevin Neil Rider, 14, committed suicide while on Prozac. His mother writes: "Three months into his Prozac therapy I took my son back in to see if there was something else we could try. My son didn't want to be on this drug. He claimed it made him feel 'weird'... It was determined that what my son needed was a higher dose, and promptly doubled it to 20 mg. per day." A few days later Kevin took his father's gun, walked into a nearby orchard and shot himself in the head. "I wish I had known all that I do now about these drugs. Do you think I would have agreed to this drug if I had all of the information? Of course not..." She has since become a strong anti-drugging advocate.

jadensmokes - You obviously know very little about the different drugs out there. If she would happen to suffer from some type of psychosis, PROZAC would NOT have helped!! She needs some type of antipsychotic med (Abilify, Risperadal, Seroquel, etc) to even accurately assess if treatment would help. Chances are if she gets life, she will be on parole way down the road ... they better be treating her effectively before that happens.

EXACTLY alli!!!!

marie heck and it's not the medicine - yep, it doesn't affect some people in a negative way. Tell me, though, why do some people break out in hives after taking a medication and others don't?? Why do some sedatives used for surgery make some people cry for hours and others don't? Why can one diabetic take insulin and be fine and another have to take other meds just for the body to use the insulin right?? Food - lady was almost 70, ate chicken all her life and one night 911 is called because she had an allergic reaction, probably to the feed the chicken ate - now she can't eat it ever again ... why?? Some people on Lisinopril (blood pressure like med), works for years and all of a sudden, even with supplements, Potassium becomes deadly low ... why???

All the "whys" I ask - does that mean these people who get negative reactions are evil since other people can take whatever all their lives okay???? I would love to hear your reasoning for these other things ... drugs are drugs whether for physical or mental illnesses ... they are all man made things that are purposely made to change something in a person whether the change ends up being the same or different ... MENTAL ILLNESS DRUGS are NO different. Physical or mental, WHY are there different drugs for the same purpose?????????? Why are there short acting or long acting insulins?? Why are there different beta blockers or simple fever reducers????

A suicide attempt.

Yep, another damn case where she's going to claim insanity because for some reason, people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Pretty soon, psyche centers are going to get more overcrowded than our own damn prison systems.

Might I add that antidepressants affect people differently. Just because it turns out bad for one case, doesn't mean that it will turn out bad for all.

Abilify seems to be a great drug for me. Unfortunately, my health coverage doesn't pay for it, and the damn things cost $400+ dollars a bottle. That's most of my rent in one little damn container! On this medication my head is clear, I'm able to complete tasks and such, and I'm not as depressed. My brother was prescribed the same medication, and he had some serious physical problems while taking it. Physical problems that he could not deal with.

So while you point out the many crimes committed involving these drugs, also know that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people who actually do well on them.

Deborah Jean,
You have a keen sence of logic. There is no question that in some people young and old antidepressants can cause side effects. 1% of the people that have been studied have had suicidal thoughts. There are risks with all drugs. Over the counter drugs have warning labels. Lets not for get the millions of people that these drugs have helped and saved lives. Alli your reasoning about drugs is so minimal compared to the benefits, your statement and some others mean nothing. If you take Juvenile detention, Jail and Prison there are hundreds of thousands of people that committed crimes just like Alyssa did and most of them committed their crimes because the are Criminals

CJGraduate,

I'm not entirely sure what your asking me. Are you asking why does one drug work for one, but not another? My guess is because every person in this world is different. Prozac never made me suicidal or homicidal, but I know it does in some. Lortab works great for my migraines, but makes my mom sick to the point that she vomits. Why? I don't know. I had surgery on my foot about a year ago and I was given vicoprofin. It works for my aunt who has had 2 major back surgeries, but it did nothing for my pain. Why? Again, I do not know. But for some people to sit there and say that all these anti-depressants and SSRI's should never been given to people and they are all bad, I do not agree with that at all. Every medicine is different for everyone. The same medicines that work for me may not work for the next person. And of course we are going to hear all these horrible stories about what people do on anti-depressants and SSRI's. What we dont hear about is the millions of others that they help. And once again, it doesn't say that Alyssa was even still on prozac. It says she was on it, but was and is are two different stories. Can anyone, on any kind of medication, say they have taken it like they were supposed to? Antibiotics are a good example. Your usually supposed to take them for 10 days, but I know a lot of people who don't. They only take them til they feel better, much the same as people in anti-depressants and SSRI's. We think we feel better, so we stop taking them. I have never met anyone with any kind of mental illness who stays on their meds. And, I highly doubt that Alyssa took hers as was ordered by the doctor. And, I might add that not everyone who has killed someone have been on anti-depressants or SSRI's. Some people are just evil.

Deborah Jean,

While I completely agree with your thinking of people needing to take responsibility for their own actions, you will find there are some people who have commented on this story that want to blame her life, her meds (or lack thereof), her age, and her maturity. They think because she is only 15, she didn't know what she was doing. They think that because she was "on" prozac, she didn't know what she was doing. They think that because she had a shitty life, she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions. But, it is funny how there are millions of people who have had her life (absent/jailed parents, mental illness, just down right shitty life) and even worse, yet they go on to become law abiding citizens.

And I feel for you on the cost of your meds. Without insurance, they are not cheap.One reason I'm not on anything right now. I have insurance, but still can't afford to see someone at the mental health center and get the meds. I hope you find a way to get the meds.

I do not feel sorry for this girl. No, I feel for the life she took away. A young, beautiful little girl who had her whole life ahead of her and it was destroyed because of Alyssa. I feel sorry for Elizabeth and the others who have to deal with all of this every day.

this is very sad to hear about but this is not the only teen that has killed just because they wanted to know what it feels like she has a serious mental illness n rele needs to be helped she should be in a mental hospital for as long as it takes for her to be better as u see she had a bad childhood without both parents its hard on a child i kno her grandmother was there for her but there was also lots of other little kids around so she probley felt left out n alone thats probley y she cut herself like she did n wanted to die i kno that her killing the little grl is very wrong n she should be punished but in a prison?? i dnt think that is where she nds to be she should be in a mental hospital getting the care she needs at this point she is sick n she needs help locking her in prison will make her commit suicide someone that feels alone u cant keep them alone

blessings go out to elizabeth family and alyssa family

12 Year Old Girl Plots to Kill her Mother; On Prozac & Paxil
10 & 11 Year Old Brother & Sister Plan Arson & Murder; On Antidepressants
ssristories.com/show.php?item=1881
1996-02-28 California: 11 Year Old Goes On Robbery & Shooting Spree; On Paxil
2007-04-24 Tennessee: 12 Year Old Boy Threatens to Shoot Others at School; On Wellbutrin
2005-07-12 New York: 13 Year Old Girl Attacks Police; On Antidepressants
1996-12-15 Indiana: 14 Year Old Girl Burns Down Her House: Mother & Sister Die; On Antidepressants
2008-02-07 Massachusetts: 14 Year Old Boy Stabs Police Officer in Chest; On Antidepressants
2004-12-04 Ohio: 14 Year Old Girl Sets Fires in Middle School; On Antidepressants
2008-08-04 Tennessee: 14 Year Old Stabs his Parents; On Antidepressants
2005-01-25 New York: 15 Year Old Boy Attacks Neighbor; On Zoloft
2004-09-12 Colorado: 15 Year Old Girl Attacks Mother With Knife; On Zoloft
2008-03-06 Texas: 16 Year Old Burns Down High School; On Paxil
http://ssristories.com/index.php

As for other countries...

On January 1, 2005 the British Medical Journal quoted the original FDA reviewer of Prozac as stating, "I do agree now that those stimulatory side effects, especially in regard to suicidal ideation and homicidal ideation are worse than I thought at the time that I reviewed the drug."

The Japanese media alerted the public that people on antidepressants have an elevated risk for violence. The media reported that among antidepressant users, some develop increased feelings of hostility or anxiety, and have even committed sudden acts of violence against others.

In Germany, a 15 year old shot and killed his foster father after years of psychiatric treatment and was taking medication.

The European Medicines Agency banned Prozac and other antidepressants for under aged 18 use.

So far as I know, only other developed countries which youths aren' given different sentence/life sentences" are canada, isreal, south africa, china and austrailia which must have minium term set. Even 3rd worldish countries like Nigeria don't even have a life sentence for under 18.

Canada has a non-parole period of 7 to a maximum of 25 years, life without parole is only used for repeat offenders who have a likelyhood of reoffending. Isreal has a non-parole period of 13-30 years. Austrailia and South Africa 10 to 25 years, hearing mandatory after 25 years.

Recent case, a youth from Germany stabbed his teacher to death he got a 7 and a half year sentence.

Like I said yesterday EMI “you're stupid!” We are in the USA, "you know" where Alyssa is being tried as an adult for Murder. Alyssa is not in another Country, she's right here in the good old USA.
In China if a person steals, their hand is cut off.......Alyssa should have murdered in China, don't you think emi?

Sandy,
I guess all this has not made any of you any smarter. They do not have agendas in the US for juveniles. In other coutries, they make room for the younger generation. But all we care about here is money. Sandy, get a life. You are arguing with a very sick mcr.

rockki, I see you're still as Asinine ever. Yes the US does have Juvenile Hall for Juvenile Offenders. However when an individual commits a crime that is an adult crime the individual that is under the age of 18 is tried and sentences as an adult. Again, We are in the USA not other Countries. How ridiculous for a US citizen to argue about how other countries sentence juveniles....Stupid stupid stupid.
Rockki, I see you are still insanely jealous of MCR.

Wow...seriously still bringing me up after I haven't left one comment in 2 months? Get yourself some help, rock.

If you don't think Prozac can lead to something like this then you don't know much about what can happen to the minds of people taking SSRI drugs, how badly they can warp the mind till all prospective of reality is lost.

It is not unusual for Prozac or other SSRI drugs to be linked to acts of extreme violence, including the murdering of close friends and relatives.

http://www.truebooks.com/prozac.html

If you don't think Prozac can lead to something that helps mentally ill people like this then you don't know much about what can happen to the minds of people that are not taking SSRI drugs and need them. How badly they can help the mind to have a clear prospective of reality.
It is not unusual for Prozac or other SSRI drugs to be linked to helping and in extreme violent and including preventing murder of close friends and relatives

There are hundreds of thousands of reports of antidepressants inducing bizarre and erratic behaviour and causing people to go bezerk, insanity, homicide, suicide.

There are so many murders being commited by people on antidepressants because they have violent and inducing nature. These medications can drastically imbalance brain chemistry, causing users to feel distanced from reality or as they are in a dream.

When people are drunk or high they act how they normally wouldn't, similarily how we think is all chemistry and these powerful drugs clearly have the power to distort the mind in many ways.

There are hundreds of thousands of reports of people taking antidepressants that have helped people from doing bizarre and erratic behavior that other wise might have caused them to go berserk, insane, homicide, suicidal.

There are so many murders that have been prevented because people were taking their antidepressants that stopped their other wise violent induced nature. These medications can drastically benefit the brain chemistry, the user of antidepressants feel a complete well being with reality. Going off their antidepressants they feel a dream-like state of mind.

When people are drunk or high they act how they normally wouldn't? The same way a chemically imbalanced person acts when they are not on their Antidepressant medications.

Very sad and tragic two families destroyed by one selfish and spoiled young women !

" Prozac helping people live said:
There are hundreds of thousands of reports of people taking antidepressants that have helped people from doing bizarre and erratic behavior that other wise might have caused them to go berserk, insane, homicide, suicidal."

Now, that's a scary thought !

I'm sorry to say that once a person tries suicide they need to be watched carefully forever, meds or no meds !
They will always be a constant danger to themselves and the public! Did Alyssa's neighbors know of her suicide attempt or that she was on meds ?

I do wonder if Alyssa had religious guidance ?
Did it help her at all ?

goingforhome,
They will always be a constant danger to themselves and the public! Did Alyssa's neighbors know of her suicide attempt or that she was on meds ?

I do wonder if Alyssa had religious guidance ?
Did it help her at all ?
Now, that's a scary thought ! "It would be a scarier thought without antidepressants!"

obviously not she brutally murdered a 9 year old little girl. Maybe if she had been taking her medication the way she should have she wouldn't have want to see what it felt like to kill someone.......

1995-02-22 Florida: 15 year old deliberately drives car into house; Prozac
1996-07-12 California: 15 year old girl jumps off cliff with 14 year old girl; Prozac
2002-07-05 Canada: 16 year old attacks a family; Paxil
1994-01-11 Texas: 17 year old girl attempts suicide: Joins group to petition for suicide warning; Prozac
1994-06-05 Washington: 18 year old asphyxiates himself; Prozac
2008-03-31 Illinois: 17 Year Old Girl Kills Self After Restarting on Antidepressants
2005-10-22 Massachusetts: 19 year old female runs over students; Prozac
2008-12-18 Australia: 15 year old shot and killed by police officers after he had threatened to kill with two knives in a park; Antidepressants
2007-10-23 Australia: 19 Year Old Assaults Stranger On Sidewalk; Antidepressants

China does not allow juvenile life without parole. The only countries that haven't sighned a treaty against it are the united states and somalia. Many countries don't have life without parole for adults either. I left out the uk in my prev. post they do have life for under 21 but of course must become eligible for parole. Well, yeah there have been people who've killed without the drug but the question is would have the people who were on them?

I think you ought to get out more ^.

If you dont think its the drugs then why do we see delirium in people who had depression and no other psychiatric history before being put on the drug? Why do people commit suicide when they hadn't been suicidal prior to being put on the drug? Why do some people who have no history of self mutitlation, self-mutilate after being put on the drug and stop after taken off? Why do people have hostile or aggressive feelings after being put on the drug when they had not before? Why do people feel violent only after being put on the drug?

Take Kurt Danysh for example, he was prescribed Prozac and by the second week he was out of character, restless and violent. He purposely crashed his truck into a stone wall and got into a fight with his best friend. 17 days after being put on prozac he shot his father for no reason.

This is not all over 50,000 suicides have been attributed to Prozac alone. Even among people who get prescription for reasons other than depression we see these instances happening. I dont see anyone denying that they may very well help people, but research has found less than half and they work no better than placebo. There is an increase of suicidal feelings in some users because SSRIs can increase the number of serotonin receptors linked to suicide. Here is an example of a couple needless suicides...

Traci Johnson committed suicide by hanging herself from a shower while enrolled in clinical trials of Elli Lilly's Cymbalta. Traci Johnson was not depressed prior to taking the drug, she was a normal girl who enrolled in the clinical trial as a healthy volunteer in order to earn money to pay for her college tuition. There were four other suicides during this trial.
Matt Miller, age 13 from Kansas, had mild depression but was not suicidal. He was given Zoloft by a psychiatrist, seven days later a day prior to going on a much looked forward to vacation, Matt hung himself in his bedroom closet.
Steven Harter, age 19, commited suicide after 12 days on Paxil. That day his mother had noticed drastic changes in his mood. She said he was upset and crying, this was not like him. One hour later, her son was found dead.
Kara Otter, 12-years old, commited suicide. Her mother said she had been taking Paxil for 8 months they requested the doctor to discontinue the drug because it seemed as though it was draining the very life right out of her.

18 year old omaha mall shooter Robert Hawkins had been in treatment for depression and on antidepressants. There was the 18 year old who strangled a 7 year old girl in a public bathroom, said he wanted to "expeirance death" while on these drugs. The 15 year old boy in TN shot and killed his father after 10 days on Paxil and then attacked his mother with a shovel. The 16 year old florida boy who killed an old lady and hid the body while on zoloft. 15 year old boy on zoloft who strangled a kid selling cookies door to door. The brother and sister on paxil who killed a kid and burried him out back. The 15 year old on prozac who killed her favorite aunt. The 17 year old on prozac who waited for his parents to come home and killed them and then attacked his 6, 9, and 12 year old siblings.

May 22, 2002 California; 17 year old girl murdered a 15 year old girl, Kills self; Antidepressants
1998 Michigan; 14 year old on zoloft broke into a womens house at random and killed her.
1995 Idaho; 15 year old killed a woman in a convenience store after three months on Paxil.
January 6, 1998 Texas; Sara Lowe, 18, shot her boyfriend several times in a parking lot and then turned the gun on herself. She was taking Prozac at the time of the murder-suicide
November 30, 1998 Michigan; Seth Privacky, 18, shot his grandfather, parents, brother and brother’s girlfriend while celebrating Thanksgiving. He was on Wellbutrin.
January 25, 2001 Florida; Tavares Williams, 18, killed his guardian Barbara Roth, 51, by hitting her with a baseball bat. Williams was prescribed Prozac about eight months prior to the senseless attack.
November 21, 1996 Maryland; 16 year old Julie Meade told police to come and kill her. If they didn't, she said she might kill. The police shot and killed her as she waved a gun around. She had been on Prozac for four years.
1993 Michigan; Steven Lieth walked into a school meeting and fatally shot the school superintendent and two others. He was on Prozac at the time of the shootings.
1997 New York; Christopher Vasquez, 15 years old, stabbed Michael McMorrow, 44, to death in Central Park while on Zoloft
June 22, 2004 New Jersy; Emiri Padron smothered her 10 month old baby then stabbed herself twice in the chest, killing herself. There was no apparent motive, but Padrone was in psychiatric care and was taking Zoloft.
March 9, 2002 Florida: Joey Casseday, 16, hung himself in the family garage. His father said: "he killed himself, despite the fact that he was on an anti-depressant."
1994 Idaho; 15 year old Shawn Cooper took a shot gun to school and started firing, he held the school hostage for about 20 minutes. Cooper had been taking Ritalin and antidepressants.
March 2010, England, 18 year old stabed a friend to death, mother shocked says there wasn't a 'violent bone' in her daughter's body. She was on antidepressants.
It doesn't take long to find all these stories on the net.

I wonder how long she works at looking up the same stuff?
"It doesn't take long to find all these stories on the net"
No, you're right it doesn't take long unless you are a nut.

It's sad that some of these people put out non-sense like this. Here is some real studies on Teens and depression. There is good and bad with everything, But to deny that any child should be treated for depression with medication is dangerous and just stupid. Don't get me wrong there are some bad side effects with antidepressants, but we would be fools if we did not take any medication because of side effects. There are complications with child birth, Do women stop having Children?

My point, “Aspirin can cause some people to bleed to death” Does everyone stop taking Aspirin?

If there are 5000 cases of kids committing crimes on antidepressants there are 500,000 thousand of cases where antidepressants have stopped violent and self destructive behavior. I don't believe that anyone is a Troll, I just think that people get so interested in topics that some times they become passionate.I know that's the way it is for me a lot of the times However there are exceptions to the rules; I do believe that this individual, “Is Out to lunch!”

In some cases, untreated depression can be more dangerous than suicidal feelings when starting antidepressants and a spike in teenage suicides in 2004 worried some experts that could be another unintended result of the FDA warnings. Then, teen suicides fell slightly the following year, offering hope that the suicide increase was just a blip.

Since then, depression diagnoses have fallen in all age groups and people who need help are not receiving treatment because they are afraid of treatment. When the warning came out, the public overreacted thus keeping people from seeking help and possibly committing suicide. Depression is not only a serious illness but it is also fatal.

The study also found that for men and women taking either medication, suicidal thinking was spread over the first six weeks of treatment, but peaked at roughly the fifth week before declining significantly after week six. Taking place at academic medical institutions across Europe, the trial, called Genome-Based Therapeutic Drugs for Depression--or GENDEP--gauged the responses to antidepressants of 811 persons ranging from 18 to 72 with depression.

people are major fucked in the head...this shit didnt happen all the time like 30-40 years ago. anyone got an idea of wtf is wrong with people today?
cant blame games. hell i would prolly kill people if it wasnt for games and music lol

movies? cant blame those, lately movies are less and less violent and more sexual. and crime rate is still goin up...

im thinkin maybe lazy parents, and the fact schools dont give two fucks about the kids they look after

where i live this kinda shit is so normal it dont even make the news half the time tho, kinda crazy

'These drugs can cause Akathisia, mental agitation that can spark violent thoughts and behavior and induce dissociative reactions.
These medications can drastically imbalance brain chemistry, causing users to feel distanced from reality or as they are in a dream.
When people are drunk or high they act how they normally wouldn't, similarily how we think is all chemistry and these powerful drugs clearly have the power to distort the mind in many ways.'

Exactly, violence is a documented sideeffect of Prozac and other related drugs they irritate the brain and cause this nonsense. Depression is not normally related to people whacking out the way they do when they are medicated, so it clearly is the medication. Why do you think emotional changes, psychosis, mania, delirium, etc. are all sideeffects of the medication? Because they change the mental state and not always how they're 'suppose' to. Depression does not make people violent and whacky. It's the drugs.

I had periodic depression in my mid-late teens I never sought treatment and just in a short period of time I never had depression again. I never went crazy, never was violent, never thought of killing. So why does this happen to people who are moderately depressed or have no other mental problems other than depression, when they are on antidepressants. I would like to know how you people explain that. Why do you think Europe banned antidepressants for people under 18?Because it does make them more whacky. Data has shown that of teens in treatment for depression those being medicated are more likely to act out or be suicidal. I mean some people may benifet from them but some become worse they affect peoples minds differently and obviously there is a link here.

My friend in highschool was put on antidepressants and she did'nt get better, she was moody and irritable and just not herself. Another said he felt 'bad' or 'evil' while on them.

Some depression is normal not a 'drug deficiency'.

With the suicide attempt she needed help but she should have been in a mental hospital. I guess we need to take people who talk of killing more seriously so hopefully we can prevent something like this, I guess this was a result of Prozac and it seems it had an affect on her behaviour.

http://www.bartonpublishing.com/blog/antidepressant-drugs-top-12-acts-of-violence/

Prozac can cause disinhibition, out-of-character, irrational, senseless, impulsive, bizarre and destructive behavior, lack of self-control, judgment and insight. "They can produce criminal actions that make no sense in terms of the individual's self-interest."

-Psychiatrist Peter Breggin, M.D

emi(rocki)rabbi dafe,
I have a question for you Prozac protester. What does Prozac have to do with this Topic? Alyssa was found sane when she murdered Elisabeth and she's going to Prison. Why don't you people get together and start a support group for anti-medication?
Can one of you answer this for me, what good does arguing Anti-Prozac have to do with helping Alyssa? What is your goal? What is your message? If you have a message for the public against antidepressants why not protest?
TCR doesn't care.....

rabbi your website is a joke and pretty funny. this is what you call information "Natural Health Remedies." You got you scientific information from Natural remedies???LOL.

Alyssa Bustamante Testimony:
A series of youth professionals testified in a juvenile court hearing that the Division of Youth Services in Missouri is not equipped to handle the girl’s treatment and detention, given the severity and sophistication of the crime.
David Cook, chief juvenile officer and director of court services staff for Cole County, testified that Bustamante received extensive supervision from her grandparents and other family members and intensive treatment for her depression.

Division of Youth Services legal counsel Samantha Green, in her closing statement, painted Bustamante as a cold, calculating killer unfit for the juvenile system.

“She did a premeditated murder, and she had all the services in place,” Green said. “Her grandmother did everything she could for her, and she chose to do this.

I just wanted to share with all of you some more information about suicide mainly you EMI and ROCKI. You see out of those 30,000 Americans that take their own lives these people are depressed and have other mental illnesses. Unfortunately they did not get the therapy or antidepressant medications that would have saved their lives. There maybe, and I repeat that maybe 1% of that 30,000 that MAY have side effects from antidepressants. Please call your local Mental Health Human Services to confirm the True studies on Antidepressants. Open your minds and Emi no one gives a shit about other Countries Okay. I do acknowledge that there is a slight percentage in some people that antidepressants can have side effects. However what medication out there does not come with a warning labels on them. Over the counter drugs can cause death, so no one should take any medications. What about anesthesia, every time a person has surgery you're signing your own death certificate.
Suicide is a major public health problem. Each year, more than 30,000 Americans take their own lives. Among adolescents, suicide ranks as the third leading cause of death, behind unintentional injury and homicide. In 2001, 4,234 youth between the ages of 10 and 24 took their own lives, accounting for nearly 12 percent of all deaths for this age group. Despite declines among all age groups nationwide, for adolescents between the ages of 15 and19 the suicide rate has increased by 6 percent, and among children between the ages of 10 and 14, the rate has increased by more than 100 percent.

Suicidal behavior is complex. Research shows that more than 90 percent of people who kill themselves have depression or another diagnosable mental or substance abuse disorder, with conditions often co-occurring. Risk factors associated with suicide include a previous suicide attempt(s); a history of mental disorders (namely depression); a family history of suicide; a family history of child maltreatment; impulsive and aggressive tendencies; barriers to accessing mental health services; such as cultural and religious beliefs or stigma attached to mental health and substance abuse disorders; and inadequate health insurance coverage.

This is the case with many SSRI tragedies.

Leading British researcher did a study showing that subjects become belligerent and pose a risk to others and themselves after taking Prozac. Dr. David Healy, in a preliminary report, said about one in 20 people who take Prozac become mentally restless or manic and lose all inhibitions.

Dr. Glenmullen documented cases in psychiatric journals and in his own practice of disturbing side effects linked to SSRIs, including hallucinations, psychoses, violence and attempted suicide, and said he believed they could cause homicidal episodes.

Crystal Barbieri, 12, within weeks on Prozac the girl once described as sweet and quiet was plotting to kill her mother. "They turned her into someone I didn't even know," Ms. Barbieri said. "Crystal was weaned off the drugs, and now is back to "her old self".

Dafe, no one cares about other Countries Silly rabbit. You can read can't you? So can everyone else for every 1 case you post that someone was on an antidepressant medication at the time a crime was committed, I can post 100's of thousands where the criminal was not taking any antidepressant medication. Just answer the questions that I asked you before? What does any of this have to do with this Case? Sweetheart, the case is over. As sad as it is this girl's life is over because she ended it herself. Prozac or No Prozac.
Dafe I have noticed that not one time have you or emi, rocki have even mentioned Elisabeth....................
God Bless You Sweet Elisabeth and he wraps you in his arms.

Dafe, no one cares about other Countries Silly rabbit. You can read can't you? So can everyone else for every 1 case you post that someone was on an antidepressant medication at the time a crime was committed, I can post 100's of thousands where the criminal was not taking any antidepressant medication. Just answer the questions that I asked you before? What does any of this have to do with this Case? Sweetheart, the case is over. As sad as it is this girl's life is over because she ended it herself. Prozac or No Prozac.
Dafe I have noticed that not one time have you or emi, rocki have even mentioned Elisabeth....................
God Bless You Sweet Elisabeth and he wraps you in his arms.

Experts have also indicated that the methods used to treat depression could increase violent tendencies, that too often have been falsely attributed to “mental illness,” when, in fact, the methods used to treat such “illness” are the cause of the problem that exacerbated the condition.
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/00/apr00/040600/c01.pdf

Most people who commit suicide have depression but most people with depression do not commit suicide. It was not common for depressed people to commit suicide until the advent of antidepressant drugs. Rather than reducing suicide, a review of published ssRi antidepressant clinical trials determined that they increase the risk of suicide and they also raise the risk of severe violence in people taking them. It is estimated that 3,000 deaths a month are cause by the side-effects of psychotropic drugs.

People presribed Prozac have been known to undergo a radical and violent personality change. A doctor said the brain cells under Prozac change shape, some cells shriveled while others took on corkscrew shapes.

"After a period of time on this Prozac it is virtually impossible to withdraw from use of the drug, and the point where the person is more and more willing to commit violence, including murder, on others.
Eli Lilly is one of the most evil drug companies on the planet. They knew, many years ago, about the side effects of Prozac. They deliberately hid the truth for the sole purpose of making billions of dollars of profit on this harmful drug."

http://www.oralchelation.net/ProzacSideEffects.htm

I came across this website and started reading some comments. Interesting but for a better words "misinformed information" There is adverse affects in a minimal percentage of patients taking the antidepressant medication. The controversy of medication will always be the topic of main stream media.Some words from the wise. "If you do not have any medical background your opinions on antidepressants mean as much to the public as how many times a day you flush your toilet.

Bill,
Thanks for setting us all straight. Since you appear to have no medical training either with which to decide if others are allowed to have an opinion or not on SSRI's, then we can safely treat your opinion as maybe a quarter flush. Better flush again.

Normally, I stay out of the crap fests around here because I would prefer not to argue with people who make bickering an Olympic sport, but I had to chime in for a moment.

I do have the training to back up what Bill says. And, he is correct. Yes, there are instances of medications causing adverse reactions. Some of those reactions are severe, however, those instances are not as prevalent as they are made out to be. They are not the big bad evil that they are made out to be. They are also not the miracle cure they are made out to be. Now, I don't necessarily believe in giving SSRI's to children, especially very young children. In extreme cases, yes. I do feel we over-medicate our children in this country.

On to not caring about other countries. Maybe some of you don't, but you should. They are often ahead of us by miles when it comes to the use of certain medications. They are also sometimes far ahead of us in determining when a medication is not safe for use for certain conditions. Simply stating that nobody cares about other countries and what they report is false. Perhaps you personally don't care, but I do. I have to, it's essential to keep up with these things when somebody's life could be in your hands.

Now, If I follow this correctly, I've no doubt that I'll hear a bunch of yelling and name-calling and I'll be accused of being a liar. So be it. I know what my degree says.

I will not comment on this subject again. Amber you misunderstood what was posted. The concern here is not how other countries medicate their juveniles. This topic is not drug research. You are referring to Sandy's post.(pointing my finger at you) She clearly spells it out. Antidepressant drugs are not the subject, the girl's crime is. We are not talking about research from all over the world to do research on this case. The numbers for antidepressants having adverse affects for some people are too small to consider too stop prescribing medication to any age group of people.
I guess you could say I have some what of a little knowledge in this field, I am a licensed psychologist.
Thank you for your time.

As am I, Bill. I know what the focus of the discussion is. It's funny around here, you actually defend somebody and theythink you're being snotty. Live and learn I guess.

My comments were addressed to the people who use every topic to make their case that antidepressants=murder. Yes, I was directing a comment to Sandy because I've read her comments before and I frankly think it's a bit arrogant to say that nobody cares about other countries. Normally, I don't even reply to Sandy because it always turns into name-calling and shouts of "troll", "ban them" on her part. This time, I decided to not stay quiet.

As with you, Bill, I constantly study psychology and medications because of the nature of what we do. Really, I was backing up what you said. The only problem you seem to have with that is my saying something to Sandy. Sorry about that, but as she's so fond of saying all the time, people are entitled to their own thoughts on any subject.

Amber you seem to have made me into a liar. I see the need to comment back to you. You are misunderstanding the point that was made. "Who cares about other countries." She's not saying no one cares about other countries. She's (Sandy)saying that the posts are irrelevant to the topic, therefore the focus needs to stay on the subject. I am having a hard time with your dislike, almost a hatred for this person. You use the terms arrogant, troll, this does not sound like the behavior of a phycologist. Some people that are extremely intelligent come across as arrogant that is usually not their intention. There is no need for written hostility.

Bill,
You have no medical training and you are on SSRI's. Probably Lexapro or Effexor, some of the strongest. I'm always rught about these things 100%. But not today unless you can accept it will take more time. There's nothing than can be done but accept it. It's OK not matter what Moet says, I have never abandoned all hope and I am here to tell the tale, and I always will be no matter how many times mcr, moet, an cc die, I will wil always be here,, Hope & Angels, they do exist. When God wrote the passage, I carried you when there was only one set of prints, He was right and now I believe!

WOW,
Thanks Pete, I am not smarter than you, I just share my birthday with Edgar Allen Poe!!!! January 19th forever!!!

Wow.

Biill,
Don't let moet or cc catch you like that...misspelling your own name. I think you are quite drunk.

O_O

Wha...? How'd I get dragged into this conversation?!

*wink*

So I guess Biill is not sharing his poison with us...whether it be Prozac or Lexapro, or Effexor....what's your poison man.....that's what I thought. Bill is not a man, but a gigantic pussy. Just like Moet and 300 cc's, fool's gold & jadensmokes. Succumbed to the drug dealoer across the street and can't make their own decisions. Go blow me & you always will!!! You're all pussies compared to me. Have a nice tomorrow. I know I will!

Many experts in the medical and relevant fields agree that antidepressants can cause these things, including Harvard university psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen, warns that the dangers of ssRis are drastically underplayed.

To point out, violence is the result of a certain type of stimulation of chemical interations in the brain and that's what these drugs have on the brain- chemical reactions. The meds affect the mind, behavior, intellectual functions, perception, moods, and emotion and high levels of sertonin can lead to a person feeling high, confused and detached.

I don't think homicidal ideation is a regular with depression. The majority of people with depression aren't suicidal either. It may occur in people with an imbalenced brain chemistry and other pshycological problems or disorders though, but still its not common. I guess homicidal ideation alone wouldn't drive a person to murder, but when mixed with other stimulatory side-effects of ssri's it could lead to that.

Depression is believed to be caused by a type of chemical imbalence but that really has no diagnosis in fact. I agree that the meds should be reserved for those last resort severe cases, even if adverse reactions are a mere 1% and its not it adds up when the medication is overprescribed.

To say antidepressants didnt have anything to do with this when the side effects include depersonalization, apathy, confusion, separateness, psychosis, unusual feelings of agitation, hostility or anxiety, impulsive or disturbing thoughts, such as thoughts of self-harm or harm to others, mania (a condition that can lead to violence) and on and on is absurd.

There are many reports and studies confirming that SSRI antidepressants can cause violence, suicide, mania and other forms of psychotic and bizarre behavior.

SSRIs seem to lift normal inhibitions against violence and suicide in some people.

Yes maybe antidepressants help some people maybe Bustamante would have killed herself but atleast Olten would still be here. Its pretty clear Prozac had everything to do with this, practically textbook. Thats really just the way it is and how it should be dealt with.

No that's not the way it is and it is not how it is dealt with. Please educate yourselves before making uniformed comments. Researching both sides of the issue can boarden your mind. With the appropriate information your comments will not sound so limited.

Depression is a serious disorder that can cause significant problems in mood, thinking, and behavior at home, in school, and with peers. It is estimated that major depressive disorder (MDD) affects about 5 percent of adolescents.

Research has shown that, as in adults, depression in children and adolescents is treatable. Certain antidepressant medications, called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), can be beneficial to children and adolescents with MDD. Certain types of psychological therapies also have been shown to be effective. However, our knowledge of antidepressant treatments in youth, though growing substantially, is limited compared to what we know about treating depression in adults.

More recently, results of a comprehensive review of pediatric trials conducted between 1988 and 2006 suggested that the benefits of antidepressant medications likely outweigh their risks to children and adolescents with major depression and anxiety disorders. The study, partially funded by NIMH, was published in the April 18, 2007, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

All treatments can be associated with side effects. Families and doctors should carefully weigh the risks and benefits, and maintain appropriate follow-up and monitoring to help control for the risks.

An individual's response to a medication cannot be predicted with certainty. It is extremely difficult to determine whether SSRI medications increase the risk for completed suicide, especially because depression itself increases the risk for suicide and because completed suicides, especially among children and adolescents, are rare. Most controlled trials are too small to detect for rare events such as suicide (thousands of participants are needed). In addition, controlled trials typically exclude patients considered at high risk for suicide

She clearly is not of good mental health. Instead of prison, it would be better for everyone (her included) for her to go to a Mental Asylum. She seems a sociopath. And the whole depression/antidepressant thing certainly was a big part of it.
Also, when it comes to antidepressants, it is hard to find the one for you. Most of them will end up not working or causing awful side effects. It honestly makes me sick to my stomach to hear people practically turn a blind eye to mental health issues. (Not that that happened here- it just happens often).
To put it bluntly, the situation is completely chaotic.
Also, to say that antidepressants aren't significant is complete foolishness. Put in the mind of Alyssa, many more people than you'd think would end up being a danger to themselves and others.

There is no doubt that any drug used can cause side effects. ALL drugs have warning labels on them. Suicide and unusual behavior are on most prescriptions drugs as well as over the counter drugs. No one is immune to any of the side effects of drugs that we as a society take. The issue is and has been Alyssa murdering Elisabeth. Yes she was taking Prozac. Did Prozac make her commit this horrific crime against another human being? No. The psychiatrist that evaluated her said no, all of the Mental Health experts that talked with, test and evaluated Alyssa all said the same thing. Alyssa new what she was doing a week before she murdered Elisabeth and during the killing. Alyssa's crime was premeditated. She very carefully planned and executed her crime. Does Alyssa need Mental Health? Of course she does. Is she going to be let out into society when she is 21-25 to hurt someone else again NO. For Alyssa's own protection and the protection of society, Alyssa is in an adult prison and will be there for life. It will be up to her how she spends the rest of her life in prison. Just because she won't be walking the streets as a free person doesn't mean she can't be rehabilitated.

It is not only ignorant it is down right stupid to say that antidepressants do not help people with their mental health issues. Some People can not take certain types of antidepressants;Therefore that is why these people need to report to their medical professionals the side effects.
Is it reasonable to say in extremely small cases antidepressants were reported to have been link to suicidal thoughts. It is also reasonable to link suicide, violent behavior and death in 85% of prescribed and over the counter drugs. Again All medications have warning labels on them.
To be narrow minded is one thing, but to be stupid is another.

2006 suggested that the benefits of antidepressant medications likely outweigh their risks to children and adolescents with major depression and anxiety disorders.

Prozac has accumulated more adverse reaction reports than any other substance in the history of the FDA's adverse drug reaction reporting system.

From almost the day that they were introduced, sudden and unexpected suicides and homicides have been reported in patients taking serotonin-enhancing antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft.

Prozac has been reported to have less than 1% of adverse drug reaction by the FDA's reporting system.

From almost the day that they were introduced, sudden suicides from patients taking serotonin-enhancing antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft, decreased these tendencies. No homicides have ever been linked to antidepressant drugs.

It is the counselors, of course, who are most likely to turn a kid into a criminal, they spread these evil drugs and "counsel" our children into killing people. When the research is done on violent killers you'll find that many of them have had psychiatric or psychological counseling.

As this site reported: http://www.uhuh.com/education/drugskill.htm
In more than 400 cases of violent crime reviewed by CCHR, it was found that most mass murderers had been under psychiatric care before the crime was committed. Many of the mass killers were found to have no previous pattern of violent behavior prior to being treated, especially with drugs, by psychiatrists. But even more startling, is that normal children are becoming murderers, with the aide of psychiatric drugs, treatments and programs.

Rocky, You forgot to mention that the group you are quoting is Scientology.....Get real. What time is your space shuttle leaving for Mars? 400 cases!Lol...."Hay kids take these evil drugs and kill as many people as you can..."Lol

Those who commit violent acts as teens, were more likely as children to:
•Have committed other crimes
•Have engaged in drug, alcohol, or other substance abuse
•Have parents who were violent or engaged in criminal behavior
•Come from lower socioeconomic groups, or live in poverty
•Have psychological problems
•Have discipline at home that is too harsh, too lax, or inconsistent
•Have a poor relationship with their parents
•Have ties to gangs or other negative peer influences
•Be exposed to violence on television
•Do poorly in school
•Come from a broken home
•Be abused or neglected
•Be dishonest

Wow Sandy did you just learn that!!??? What site did you copy and paste that from???? Thanks for your replies but I think its clear that this above post still applies:“To say antidepressants didnt have anything to do with this when the side effects include depersonalization, apathy, confusion, separateness, psychosis, unusual feelings of agitation, hostility or anxiety, impulsive or disturbing thoughts, such as thoughts of self-harm or harm to others, mania (a condition that can lead to violence) and on and on is absurd.

SSRIs seem to lift normal inhibitions against violence and suicide in some people.

There are many reports and studies confirming that SSRI antidepressants can cause violence, suicide, mania and other forms of psychotic and bizarre behavior.”

i dont know how the way the crime was commited has to do with prozac causing it or not. this is just one of the many ways prozac affect her. ssri's can make people out of touch with reality, emotionally dettached and have been linked to homicidal ideation which is includes premeditating murder and can make people insensitive to consequences of actions and lack remorse. i think we know many medications have 'rare but serious' side effects. people can have negative side-effects from antidepressants, alyssa just happens to be one of those people. a drug that can cause positive changes in peoples brains can also cause negative ones. i think sandy is getting her info from people who profit off the drugs. it is odd i couldnt find anything on prozac and an evaluation to do with alyss got a link sandy? the thing is a placebo works better than antidepressants but i guess those dont earn millions of dollars for the drug companies. approximately 5% of patients on ssri's in randomized trials drop out because just of agitation against 0.5% on placebo. The maker of prozac reported other freuquent effects such as irritability, confusion and abnormal thinking, delusions, aggression, amnesia, hypomania, aggrevated depression, anger, rage, impulsivity have also reported among.

The fact that drug regulatory agencies require ssri packaging to include the warning of "anger, aggression, and violence" indicates that antidepressant reactions can pose a danger to others.

a study presented at the u.s. psychiatric and mental health congress concluded that at most, 26 percent of patients might be expected to sustain a good response to an SSRI.

some phsychatrists have found that omega 3 fatty acid (fish oil) pills work better and are more effective for depression than heavy medications.

theredqueen: I didn't realize I had commented on this particular story.....Oh, that's because I didn't. What's the deal, yo?

“It is the counselors, of course, who are most likely to turn a kid into a criminal, they spread these evil drugs and "counsel" our children into killing people.”

“Hay kids take these evil drugs and kill as many people as you can...”I wonder if Sandy is being sarcastic or if she really doesnt know thats figurative speech? All this information is no coincidence, and you still dispute that the drugs had an effect on Alyssa's mind and behaviour when clearly they did. Prozac caused this crime not the source of Alyssa's depression. Her judgment was impaired. Her and Elizabeth are just more victims. I'm not rocky, I'm rockingg.

Wow Rocky,
Scientology is as Scientific as a Witch Doctors. When it comes to pasting and coping you have a masters degree in that. You are right. The information that is out there that has studied Antidepressants and ALL Medications including over the counter medications the benefits out way the less the 1% of the side effects. Get your story straight is it antidepressants medications or psychiatric care that the children are receiving from these professionals that are brain-washing these kids to be mask murderers? What is it?
Your father was clearly Mentally Ill. His death was not from his Medication. As sad as it is, your father needed intense therapy. You are still looking to blame his death on anything you can from a 13 year old mind. You need to move on. Get over the guilt. The medication did not make your father commit suicide and neither did YOU.

Rocky do you think Posting R, Rockingg and all the other names that you have been using on this story makes your point more convincing?

Rocky do you think that one million people are taking antidepressants?
Over one million people commit suicide every year.

Rocky, Pay attention and read.
People who are abnormally unable to resist certain urges or impulses that could be harmful to themselves or others, may be classed as having an impulse control disorder. That would be Alyssa.

Currently, mental disorders are conceptualized as disorders of brain circuits likely caused by developmental processes shaped by a complex interplay of genetics and experience.[1] In other words, the genetics of mental illness may really be the genetics of brain development, with different outcomes possible, depending on the biological and environmental context.

Prozac Side Effects: In REAR CASES ROCKY, REAR CASES!!!!!LESS 1% of patients, Repeat after me ROCKY;"REAR CASES 1%%%%%%%"

Insomnia weakness, and loss of appetite are among the most common side effects reported with Prozac.

Some of the side effects that are rare (seen in less than 1 percent of patients) include canker sores, high cholesterol, and acne. In most cases, side effects of Prozac are minor and either do not require medical attention or can be treated easily. However, if you develop any serious problems, such as suicidal thoughts or behavior, hallucinations, or panic attacks, notify your healthcare provider immediately.

Psychiatrist talks about patients, one example with Prozac involved a woman with a job and family, who had a mild depression with no suicidal tendencies. This changed after just three days on Prozac, when she became acutely psychotic.

...antidepressants can cause brain dysfunctions including disorientation, aggrevation, and cognitive disturbances. SSRIs can also cause a severe degree of agitation or restlessness that may become intolerable and reduce impulse control. Impulsive behavior, especially if coupled with impaired cognitive functioning, can be dangerous.”
Read here http://www.medicationsense.com/articles/oct_dec_03/suicides_homicides.html

Hay Rocki,
You've got one case? You can do better than this. Poor Dear. 1 million people a year commit suicide and they are not taking antidepressants. Why do you think that is? Do you think your ONE case made Alyssa cut Elizabeth's throat from ear to ear? Or do you think the Devil made her do it?

Not Good, Not Good at all.......
The contents of articles in JAMA should be attributed to authors, rather than to the American Medical Association: "AMA disclaims any liability to any party for the accuracy, completeness or availability of the material or for any damages arising out of the use or non-use of any of the material and any information contained therein."

You see Rocki you should read what you post. This doctor prescribes medications. He monitors them. God get smart.

A Safer Approach with Medications. A recognized expert on how to use prescription drugs safely and effectively, Dr. Cohen has lectured at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Scripps Clinic (La Jolla), UCSD, and other respected institutions. Because of the high frequency of side effects with antidepressant and anti-anxiety medications, he prescribes these drugs with special care.

Go up and read Jesse's comments 1% my rear end. approximately 5% of patients on ssri's in randomized trials drop out due to just agitation against 0.5% on placebo.
a study presented at the u.s. psychiatric and mental health congress concluded that at most, 26 percent of patients might be expected to sustain a good response to an SSRI.”
My, my how these drugs so help everyone.

No one exactly knows what these drugs are doing in the bodies of human beings. Its all just about money not science. The idea that depression is caused by serotonin deficiency is all hypothesis. SSRI's work on the brain much like illegal drugs that's all.

You are as dumb as they come. If you had a brain you would play with it. Get off the drugs, the story is about a crazy girl that killed a kid. Why did she kill the kid, she's an evil bitch.

Sandy (B@L) it is you. Now why did Alyssa kill Elizabeth? Because she was on PROZAC. We don't know how Alyssa's mind was affected by artificially elevated levels of serotonin after the 2 years she was on it. Like I said these drugs work on the brain much like illegal drugs.

Prozac side-effects include murder! Many school shooting, work place masacars, mass murder and other horrific killings were commited by people gone mad on Prozac and other SSRIs they actually cause people to kill without feeling remorse.

Everyone has a different physiology and can be affected differently this is how Prozac made Alyssa. SSRIs alter or re-pattern the brain and can create a unique combination of side effects that might severely impair judgment, insight and impulse control. What is clear is that they do activate new symptoms unrelated to the condition that had not been previously experienced by the patient.

The FDA were aware that at least 27 deaths had been linked to Prozac's use before the drug was even released. Two months before Prozac was allowed on the market, there had already been 15 suicides linked to it - six by overdose, four by gunshot, three by hanging and two by drowning. Before Prozac was approved for public consumption, evidence existed which linked Prozac to worsened symptoms and the onset of psychotic episodes - as of 1993 there were already 1,089 reported suicides, along with many episodes of senseless violence, homicide and multiple murder.

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/the-story-behind-prozac.html

Sandy, Rocky is confused as she is crazy.
Jerb new findings Prozac is the cause of forest fires. FDA just releast some new studies. The same studies that you have for Prozac causing murder.

Donald Marks, M.D., Ph.D., testified before FDA hearings in February 2004 stating that there are many studies in the peer reviewed medical literature supporting the causal
role of serotonin in disinhibition and violence.

Take a look at how these drugs can help people so much:
In 2005, researchers published a study entitled, "suicide attempts in clinical trials with paxil randomized against placebo" in the BMC Medicine, finding that Paxil was seven times more likely to induce suicide in people taking this than those taking placebo: "The data strongly suggests that the use of SSRIs is connected with an increased intensity and suicide attempts per year."

These drugs can cause structeral changes to the brain and have serious and difficult withdrawl effects: Dr. John Zajecka reported in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry that the agitation and irritability experienced by patients withdrawing from one SSRI could cause "aggressiveness and suicidal impulsivity." Dr. Miki Bloch reported on patients who became suicidal and homicidal after stopping an antidepressant, with one man having thoughts of harming "his own children."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6507147/psychiatries-hand-in-school-shootings-and-violence

Sandy you made it quite clear that you are B@L, same spelling errors and typing style. I see you still don't quite get it. Prozac is a deadly drug, the real murderer.

Jerb, 1 million people take antidepressants in the world and all of them are killing people? Did you also hear that the new studies show that Dr. Little said the sky is falling due to children taking Prozac?

Ms. Crazy Lady I am not Sandy, thank you, she's a smart lady. Last time I checked I was a male. You did not find spelling mistakes with me. Lady you are out to lunch. Theres not that many names you can keep coming up with. Antidepressants help millions of people. Prozac did not have anything to do with your life. Except you should be taking it.

How nice I have a typing style.

All this crap about antidepressants is just that crap. Kids are murderers because it seems to be the thing to do now a days. At least the ones that have been reported and are in the Media.

He claims that killing his brother satisfied his craving like a hamburger would satisfy a hunger pain.

“Like I had to… like when people have something like they are hungry and there is a hamburger sitting there and they knew they had to have it and I was sitting there and it just happened,” said Conley in an affidavit.

The two of them were wrestling while their parents were at work. Andrew put Conner in a headlock until he passed out and fell to the floor. He then dragged his brother to the kitchen and got a pair of gloves on and began choking him. He says he choked him for about 20 minutes and didn’t let go until he saw blood flowing from Conner’s nose and mouth. He says his brother’s last words to him were, “Andrew, stop”
He then put a plastic bag over his head and he used black electrical tape to make sure it didn’t come off as he drug the body down to the basement. He then took the body from the home to the trunk of his car but he struck Conner’s head on the ground a few times first.

15 year old Alyssa Bustamante killing 9 year old Elizabeth Olten after claiming she did it just so she could find out what it felt like to kill someone.

Also I reported about the death of little 4 year old Alex Christopher Mercado from Mendota, California who was killed by a 14 year old that threw him inside a dryer after he killed him

Stop this little slap on the hand punishment only to be told to go home and just don’t do it again theory. There is lots of desert areas in the west with no developments on it. Let the governments set up lines and lines of tents in the areas and surround them by electric fences and make the prisoners live there without the benefits of air conditioners, TV or radios. Have them take showers outside with homemade showers fixed up. Give them three meals a day without snacks for their pleasure. Don’t give them any pleasurable times. Make life pure hell for them.

These days prisoners live better than some of our own citizens do that have never done anything against the law. I am sure to some a roof over there head and a bed to sleep in with three meals a day sounds like living at the Ritz Carlton Hotel. It would almost be tempting to some to do something like kill someone just so they could have a place to live. If I sound harsh I mean to be. I am not talking about someone that runs a traffic light and got in trouble for it. I am talking about the REAL criminals
by Jan Barrett in Society and Culture.

Please join me in my daily prayers for these children. Please help the ones that are lost, find their way home. The ones that have gone from this earth I pray that they can rest in peace. My list includes: Caylee Anthony (found dead), Adji Desir (remains missing), Haleigh Cummings (remains missing), Somer Thompson (found dead), Elizabeth Olten (found dead) , Masaraha Ross (remains missing), Alex Mercado (drowned) Rebecca Marie Allen (found alive), Sandra Cantu (found dead), Anthony Holland (found alive), Shaniya Davis (found dead), Hassani Campbell (remains missing), Giovanni Gonzalez (reported dead), Nevaeh Buchanan ( found dead) and Shannon Dedrick (found alive), Angel Miguel Perez (found safe) Luis Martinez (found dead) Luke Finch (found alive), Kayvon Lewis (fighting for his life), Andrue Jankwitz and Nathaneal Hale (found safe) and Conner Conley (killed).

God bless these children and their families too.

by Jan Barrett in Society and Culture.

Sandy (B@L) do some research b/c it will be clear to anyone who does that you are misinformed. The point is not that everyone on antidepressants becomes homicidal but Prozac caused this crime and there is a consenus of evidence to support it. Do yourself a favour and read this testament from a Prozac survivor: http://www.truebooks.com/prozac.html

She's clearly psychotic and a side-effect of Prozac is that it makes people that way. Prozac is a mind-altering drug known to cause out-of-character bizarre and psycotic behaviour. Do some research before you assume she's just crazy, Prozac had alot to do with it. The detail of the cases and number of homicides commited by people on antidepressants are more than coincidence. Elizabeth died because of Prozac. Alyssa is another victim of a psychiatric drug, it drove her crazy and Elizabeth is dead because of it.

There are many documented cases of people who were not homicidal before being put on the medication, but became homicidal while on the medication or withdrawing from it.

I'm afraid that parents who split up aren't aware of the effects their behaviour might have on their child. I heard Alyssa's mom had her when she was about 16 and abandoned her, sad how people believe they can put their kids through all this and expect them to turn out alright. If the family is broken you can't always expect the child not to be, they brought this on themselves. She clearly hasn't had any healthy attachments or she wouldn't have been able to kill with so little emotion.

The reason why I support legal abortion. A child is definitely inappropriate for someone who doesn't want one or isn't ready for it. Not only should it be a woman's right to decide if she is ready for the commitment and responsibility of being a parent but do we really want to force irresponsible parents, drug abusers and such to have children? To breed on mistakes.. I'd rather parents be educated and able to give their child a loving and nurturing home.

I feel like this could have been avoided. It just seems like she had so much freedom and was lacking in guidence, and like no one was supervising her. I believe Alyssa will not be charged as guilty for prison. Give me a break. Absent and incarcerated parents, a mind-altering drug known to effect the mind and thought process and cause psychotic behaviour that I believe made her worse. It shouldn't excuse her, but it does give some insight into her horrible behaviour. She needs to be in a mental hospital.

“Those who commit violent acts as teens, were more likely as children to: Have engaged in drug, alcohol, or other substance abuse, have parents who were violent or engaged in criminal behavior, come from lower socioeconomic groups, or live in poverty, have psychological problems, have discipline at home that is too harsh, too lax, or inconsistent, have a poor relationship with their parents, have ties to gangs or other negative peer influences, be exposed to violence on television, do poorly in school, come from a broken home, be abused or neglected.”
Yes and while many teens may be mature and rational enough to be around guns for some that's too much, in many places it is a crime if someone is killed bc a child had access to your gun, bc of nonsense happening. Keep them locked up and away from children.
Rest in Peace Sweet Elizabeth.

Alyssa's parents are about 3% to blame here while Prozac is about 97% to blame for this crime. For innocent people to commit senseless murder, that takes Psychiatric drugs.

These potent mind-altering medications can predispose a person to violent behaviour. We are talking about chemical reactions in the BRAIN.

Here is a couple examples of other pharmacologically created psychos: Kevin Underwood on taking Lexapro killed a 10 year old neighbor with the intention of eating her. Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby was on a few antidepressants when she raped and killed an 8 year old girl by strangling her. Even O.J Simpson was on Prozac at the time of the murderers.

Bad apples dont fall from a good tree, I feel like Alyssa'a family failed her.This kid is the product of failure parents and some bad breeding. Not everyone has the luxery of parents. When will they learn not to not give the grandparents custody many natorious killers have ended up with their grandparents. If a child is going to the grandparents for any reason other than the parents died then there is something probably wrong with the grandparents.

How many people develope homicidal ideation on antidepressants, less than 1%? How many people act on it? My point, I dont think a person would commit murder on them unless there was already something not right with them. People from similar backgrounds take different paths, one abuse victim might grow up to be a killer while the other goes on to live a normal life. In the end Alyssa chose to commit murder, those parents will never see there little girl again. Why should juveniles be treated differently? These reasons; they are less mature,they may have shorter temprements,an so on.. so does some adults,I remember how naive I was at that age, but that shouldnt excuse the severity of a crime.

i feel so sorry for alyssa, another youth the system failed. i dont think prison is the place for her, she needs pshcyatric care

I dont think teens should be tried as "adults" regardless of crime. if that is the case we should allow them to vote, drink, consent to sex, serve on jury, leave home, school, etc as well as have them "judged by peers" in their age group, wouldnt that be fair? Yea, its called justice. I think teenagers should be treated as teenagers, i understand how serious crime would be better handled in the adult system but why they are being "tried as adults" even if they are in the system, why can't they be juveniles tried for serious crime or something, some consistency would be nice.
I believe in life in prison but not life without parole. Teens shouldn't be tried as "adults" as a form of punishment or compensation for victims. Law shouldn't be used as a tool for revenge, victims should learn to grieve with grace.

Currently, mental disorders are conceptualized as disorders of brain circuits likely caused by developmental processes shaped by a complex interplay of genetics and experience.[1] In other words, the genetics of mental illness may really be the genetics of brain development, with different outcomes possible, depending on the biological and environmental context.

Behind many mental problems lie social ills that disfigure an individuals mental state. I believe it is both genetics and conditioning; if we were put in the exact same circumstances we would indeed commit the exact same acts.

After reading about, I think maybe the antidepressants could had more to do with it than I thought. It just seems a little odd that she was going through treatment for depression and all of a sudden committed murder, it seems she wasn't right off and maybe the antidepressants had something to do with it.

man, you people are sick. This girl killed someone...not her mothers, fathers, grandparents fault, but her own. I know it's easy to blame othets but she did it. She has good family members, some not so good, but good grandparents. You can't blame any of them cuz it was her choice. A 15 year old little girl did this, not an adult, but a child. She has problems and they need to be dealt with in manner that a child can be helped. She may not ever be free, that's not for me to decided, but she's not an adult. Her parents have problems but had nothing to do with this. Look at the child that did this and figure out how she should be punised.

I do think that teenagers should be treated differently under law. Do understand that someone younger does not have the same many years of life and wordly experience. Some 15 year olds may look, act, and talk like adults but are not fully developed which makes them less culpable whereas adults are more developed which makes them more culpable. The brains of adolecence are going through a temporary "remodelling" and continues to change and grow into the 20s, the brain of an 18 y/o is still far from resembling that of a 25 y/o. Previous studies have shown that adolescence is marked by an increases in the connectivity of nerves particularly in the prefrontal cortex. Teenagers may also be less able to preceive long term consequences or recognise other people's emotions. She know she killed but was she aware that this was going to ruin everyoneslife?

I see alot of talk about the death penalty and this and that but there is no evidence that the death penalty deters murder and it in my mind would only cause criminals to work against the system. Look at the countries that dont have the death penalty compared to the ones that do and crime its clear that there is no correlation. There are many factors effecting criminal behaviour such as social, genetic and culture and the roots of it are nuanced. China uses the death penalty more than any other country yet they have a higher murder rate than many countries that don't have it and its asian neighbors that use the death penalty much more infrequently. In Germany many people serve less then 20 years for murder but the murder rate in U.S.A is about 6 times higher, Iceland hasnt used life in prison since 1940 and has record low murder rates. However if we go over to Latin America where the maximum penalty is about 30 years they have a very serious crime problem.

If we were smart we would care about how other countries do things because Europe has the lowest murder rate than any other region in the world. However I don't think the point being made here is that it's due to their more liberal courts and prosecution. There are other factors such as greater social benifets and equality of wealth, stricter gun control laws, and the nordic countries espesially have a very socialist based government. I do believe that murder needs to be deterred with long sentences and that the sentences there are much to short. Amused how some people commit murder and walk out just after a few years, in Ecudador a serial killer walk out just after 16 years, the maximum sentence there.

Here we usually consider 16 and 17 year olds adults in the court of law, but they'll treat people over 18, 19 as minors alo, like I remember a case from Sweden in the mid-90's a 15 year old and an 18 year old tortured a Czeck boy for two hours and then killed him. The 18 year old was sentenced to 8 years but released after 6 and the 15 year old was sentenced to 5 years in youth care. Yes kids are less mature and may do things like shoplift from a candy store, I however don't agree that a crime is an adult crime a person is either a criminal no matter what the age- it has no bearing. Ask any psychologist you like, psychology is formed subconsiously and the logic behind it does sometimes challenge how we assign responsibility and blame. There are many things that can trigger homicidal thoughts and impulses like genetics, brain chemistry, control issues, bad childhood, and any combination of factors.

"Eye for an Eye" from the Bible is from the Old Testamanet where God condones rape war genocide and murder and that also tells us to stone insulant children, homosexuals and people who work on Sunday. Didnt Jesus come to change the old law?? Jesus told us to forgive first, not second or last. To understand instead of argue, to help instead of hate, to forgive instead of condemn. "Christian" means follower of Christ, Jesus is suppose to be Christans example to live by not the angry and vindictive God from the OT. The purpose of prison is not only to rehabilitate but also keep others safe from violent offenders, if someone continues to be a threat then they should be locked up for the rest of their life. Some people just aren't wired right, it may not even be their fault. We don't live in an ideal world and their are always exceptions to the rule, kindness wont always serve to reformative for those who will fall through the cracks or abuse the system.

I guess it would appear that getting tough on crime reduces crime is a myth. When torture and death was the punishment for crime in the middle ages the murder rate was manyx higher than it is now in some places. I guess prison shouldn't be so much to punish or vengeance because that doesnt work but to reform people by education and example if possible. In some countries society has reached a high level of enlightenment and their prison systems reflect that. They do not punishing criminals they are rehabilitating them, if a person commits a crime then there is something wrong with that person. I guess a problem with this system it is it doesn't fulfil the american need for veangance, blame and punsihment. there's some fictiona rates out there, but if you minus the crime by islamists they really do keep things together much better than we do. In sweden for example, the murder rate is 0.92 per 100,000 people compaed to about 5.4 in the u.s.a. first and second gerneration immigrants which alot of the time mean muslims make up 45% of the crime rates and are overrepersented in violent crime. What I dont understand is why you would immigrate on your own will to another country that allow you to seek a better life from whatever third world craphole and behave this way?
Why are christian conservatives so in favour of the death penalty? They say the u.s.a was founded on christianity, but uh no our country is founded on civil priciples which are self-evident and aren't unique or original to christianity. Many of the founding fathers were deists. They are also against gay rights, but didnt the same god tell you not to judge? Conservatives are also against abortion, but when the child grows up in the ghttoes or ends up a criminal they dont really care about them anymore. The Bible is a mishmash of different viewpoints and cultures, and on a societal level religion doesnt seem to always detere crime. according to the Bible Jesus forgives mass murderers and child rapists and even they will be going to Heaven. I dont think that criminals are christian or atheist I think predominatly they're just ignorant, there's a a big difference. Dont get me wrong, I am sure religion helps many people live good fulfilled lives and I have no problem if people want to believe in a God or afterlife.

It is right read this: http://www.greg-strange.com/norway_bastoey_prison.html

We think we're the best but actually the germanic countries are the most affluent. Go to the bottom of this report and see what the 4 greatest countries are. America is not one of them: http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html

Alot of crime involve people involved with drugs/alchohol but psych meds are prescribed so its a little different. Physiatrists hand out antidepressants left and right but in reality a healthy diet and lots of water would do the job fine in many cases.

Sweden; Where you dont have the right to arm and defend yourself, dont know whether you are living next to a child rapist as it may interfere with the child rapists intergration to society, pay high taxes for criminals to live a better life than you, oh and must be careful about what you say a person was convicted of hate speech for saying "I don’t think I am alone in feeling sick when reading about how Swedish girls are raped by immigrant hordes."

Alyssa is so hot - her pictures overheated my microprocessor!

The link is this sense its not working b.c the n wasnt capitalized: http://www.greg-strange.com/Norway_Bastoey_prison.html
"Soceity" creates criminals, their upbringing and social standing, regardless of how culpable to punish these people is right cruelty. most eruopean countries sentence teen homicids to 4-10 years and do they have any juvenile crime problem, negatory, but this doesnt answer the question casualty. There is so much crime in south america and third world immigrants commit so much crime in europe b.c main reason to sum it up they are from poor third world countries.

Juveniles shouldnt be held fully responsible it is the job of adults to make sure their child stay out of trouble and have healthy outlooks and understandings. Part of what is wrong with the world now is that teens arent treated as kids. The adults set a badder example than many of the teens online and that is where many teens get it from, and then when a troubled teen comes along instead of guiding or helping them they just ridicule and make them worse. I bet they wouldn't like if their neice, nephew, daughter or son needed help and adults abused them that way. Very sad. Some wise words: "I do not believe in 'evil' any more than i believe in vampires, ghosts, the wolfman or any other supernatural entity. There is a pathology behind all behaviour which can be understood. I'm saying that any society which wants to avoid such crimes needs to follow a line of logic which sheds light on why a 15 year old girl might do something like that."

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. -Robert Kennedy

It is a known fact that nutrition deficiency is also a factor linked to criminality also- Low DHA levels have been linked to low brain serotonin levels, which are connected to an increased tendency of depression, suicide, and violence.
There is also a study published regarding omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in children with learning and behavioral problems. The study was published in the April 2007 edition of the Journal of the Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics. The results support those of other studies that have found improvement in poor developmental health with essential fatty acid supplementation. This supplementation may also help prevent psychotic disorders in high-risk children and adolescents and speed up recovery from major depression.

I admit that at the age 15 I was pretty ignorat, I learned alot sense then and am quite a different person. I didnt have a firm idea of who I was until I hit the 20s. My sister was very compulsive when she was a teenager but now has matured into a very responsible adult. People make mistakes and people do change. You know, I'll give someone a second chance for many things but murder is not one of them. I agree that most serial killers develope poor anger mangment skills or some type of impulse control disorder, killing comes to them much like breathing which makes them a forever danger to others. Sure, some normal people who kill might change or be rehabilitated but there is no way to accuratly predict who. That's what life without parole is for.

If you kill an innocent 9-year-old girl to "see what it feels like", if you rescind that poor girl's right to life, than I'm sorry but you forfeit YOUR OWN right to life.

Don't waste money/resources on keeping Alyssa Bustamante alive for life in prison. Just eliminate her quickly and efficiently. She'll be one less scum to society.

Everyone is arguing about reforming her and re-integrating her into society. That may be appropriate for somone incriminated for petty threft or minor drug use. But you have to understand that these efforts take time, money, and resources. Does Alyssa Bustamante really deserve these resources, which mind you, are in VERY short supply? I don't know about you but if I have x amount of resources to expend on reforming someone, I'm going to place my bets on the fastest horse, that is, the person with the best prognosis and highest probability of sustained reform and re-integration.

Alyssa Bustamante isn't WORTH these efforts. Plain and simple.

Its' so easy to call this girl a monster, isn't it? I don't even need to read any other details about her life to know its' messed up, I don't need to read anything about her Mother or Father to know that shes' disconnected from the real world.

I can see even from here that something isn't firing right in her brain, something stemming from something she wasn't getting from her parents.

This is so damn unfortunate considering another little girl has lost her life and now this one, one who clearly shows signs of severe psychological trauma is going to be tried as an adult, shes' going to lose what little of her childhood she has left because something wasn't firing right, because she never got help.

Isn't that the key here? There is an obvious feeling of neglect with this young woman and that neglect has caused the death of an even younger girl.

Alyssa Bustamante does NOT deserve to die and she does not deserve to sit in a jail cell for the rest of her life, she deserves help, passionate help. She needs to suffer for what shes' done, for the life shes' stolen but she needs help as well, serious help that was clearly never offered.

Its' easy to throw the book at people because they do something we disagree with, easy to call them "monsters" when they're only just "humans" and yes, they are, only comitting to an act that though we haven't, we are capable.

A little girl has lost her life and now the young woman who stole it away is going to lose hers as well because we don't see the underlying issue, we'll take away a life out of pure vengeance and anger rather than try and understand, try and figure this out so we can perhaps stop this from happening in the future.

How can anyone possibly believe that this little demon can change? The article said she has been monitored and counseled DAILY, she is intelligent-gifted in school, she participated in church youth group activities....what more could have been done to help her?! I do think she was mentally ill, and I do not agree with comments above that mentally ill people shouldn't be imprisoned, just "helped". It depends on each individual crime as to where they are placed and what kind of rehabilitation they receive. In this particular case, she's obviously gone beyond rehabilitation if she could do something so sick at 15, while getting daily HELP. If she's put in prison she will go through hell outside and inside of her fucked up brain, she will probably be driven to try to kill inmates, or be put in solitary confinement, either way we and the victim's family will be paying taxes for her accomodations. If she's put in a Mental Institution, she will definitely end up spending her days banging her crazy filled head on the padded walls, I could see her in a straight-jacket with a Hannibal mask on...she would see the other patients as easy victims. Or, death penalty, for a kid...It's a NO WIN situation.

anyone know what is happening with allyssa? new trials? anything?