She needs to go to jail for a long time.

Its cruel. Why? Because the animals aren't given a choice.

It is cruel because they have to undergo the pain of being pierced. And then have to have objects in them that are probably very uncomfortable. That woman needs to be in jail.

Silly COW!!! Same as those who think it's ok to give babies and small children earings!! It's down to choice! and animal cannot say yes so it is abuse! You'd expect this sort of dumb rubbish off a teenager not someone old enough to have some understanding!

I am not disagreeing that this is wrong. However, if this is cruel because they weren't given a choice, wouldn't that apply to people who pierce their babies ears? The babies don't have a choice. I have rescued and raised many aminals, particularly cats, and she had to have pierced them when they were very young or they would have ripped them out. I think they should take the cats, remove the piercing, give the woman a steep fine and ban her from raising any more animals. I don't think jail is appropriate though. Piercings like that, which are properly cared for, are hardly painful and heal within a week.

The story has nothing to do with babies getting pierced. Its about kittens.

Why do you people always insist on changing the subject at hand??

Cruelty for suuuure are you kidding me.

I'm not convinced this was so much cruel or barbaric as misguided and stupid. Animals are tagged and microchipped all the time for identification purposes - this is no worse - EXCEPT that the earrings in this case could be easily caught on something and tear the kittens' ears. As the jewelry can be removed and no serious damage is done, I don't think the woman should be drawn and quartered or burned at the stake. Perhaps some time doing community service at an animal shelter would be appropriate.

microchipping isnt the same as a piercing, it isnt wrong though, the cat looks cute. hhahahahahahah meow.

What about this is any more cruel or inhumane than docking a dogs ears and tail? It's all body modification. Why isn't PETA going around busting doberman owners, bull dog owners, etc? I am way more concerned about babies with piercings than an animal!

Jail.

This woman is obviously not the brightest or best of society. I mean, peircing and selling "gothic kittens" is far more dumb than it is cruel. The cat in the picture looks slightly annoyed instead of suffering immense amounts of pain. Animal Cruelty is a very gray area in legal terms and while i do believe laws need to be tougher for animal safety I don't think people like this ^ should get the book thorwn at them for (in her case) a pretty petty crime. This woman is dumb, not cruel, and does not deserve jail. There is no penalty for being a complete moron in America.

To your point Chris, she is a moron. To everyone else's point she is a cruel moron. We don't need her in society thinking up another way to make quick cash at the expense of someone's or something's pain. Lock her up and throw away the key.

If they can't prove the cat suffered, then I see no reason for punishment. People do much worse things to their pets all the time in order to make them more to their owners' liking (declawing, fixing, non-uniform haircuts) and these practices are socially acceptable. At some point you have to understand that pets serve us. They do not and should not enjoy the same rights as humans.

However, if the cat was genuinely in pain, then that's where I draw the line for animal rights and she should be punished for cruelty. I think a little community service at an animal shelter would suffice. She doesn't need jail time where she would transform into a malicious criminal as opposed to an ignorant/irresponsible one.

I hope this person gets sent to jail and is innitionated into jail by giving her 10 ++++ piercings in her most private of places so that when she is incarcerated she will be held into submission by twisting those piercings..;) just a wicked thought for one so careless for anothers pain.

Its her cats, she should be able to eat them if she really wanted too. Its not like animals have feelings like us. I don't see anything wrong with this except that shes getting in trouble over nothing

When it's being done for a human's entertainment and image rather than the safety of the animal, yes, of course it's wrong. I would want to punch someone in the face if I saw they did that to their pet.

Kenny how do you know that animals don't have feelings like us?

They have the same areas for pain and emotion in their brains as we do. Trust me, they feel too.

She sounds fat.

Maybe this is way off the subject but I've read it here a few times.......what's the wrong with giving a baby or small child earrings? Isn't that like a normal everyday thing?

cruelty without a doubt.jail the stupid moronic slag. people who give babies earrings are total BOGANS it looks vile,cheap and tacky.

Violet,
I'm starting to see a trend with your postings, I think you have a mental illness.
Maybe you don't know the definition of "bogan" but how is someone that gives their baby/child earings a bogan? Vile Cheap and Tacky?! Seriously? EARRINGS?! I don't get it, I really don't see the harm with little gold studs.
Prude.
It makes me laugh to see the way some people think.

Ok, how is this any different than nose rings on cattle, sheep, or pigs? I'm thinking the cats shouldn't have been pierced, but I don't really see a difference between the two.

Oh, and to Candice, she is definitely not the only person that has made some quick cash at the expense of someone or something else. That is how people make money; at the expense of someone else. Happens every day, but I never see people standing at the door of their local car dealership saying how they are making a profit out of screwing others. Every business that makes a profit has somewhere down the line taken advantage of something or someone. She is no different than corporate America, but you can't get angry because everyone's ultimate goal is to make a profit.

This is far less cruel than when owners de-bark their dogs by cutting the vocal chords. I don't see those owners or the vets who perform the surgeries going to prison...

this absolutely constitutes animal cruelty:

the animals cannot consent to receiving the piercings / modifications. if you did the same to a human without their consent, it would be assault and battery.

/ thread

She had better be exonerated. People have the tails and ears chopped on certain dog breeds and the claws removed from cats. While I don't condone animal peircing, done in a humane way it should be legal. PETA blows...

@Ryan: As a side note "Bogan" is a foolish thug in Australia.

I don't see this as any different than cropping ears, tails or other body modifications. However on a cat these could get caught on something and torn out.

Is this worth a arrest and trial, not even. Stupid but not criminal.

That is an odd thing to do to an animal but i dont see people getting arrested for declawing their cats or cropping their dogs ears. for all you know the kitten likes it.

animals are best left alone and not as pets. we've bread them to be our little bitches in our lives from being wild animals that would just eat us. hell most pet owners who die alone in their home find later their own pets begin to eat them.

humans i think are a whole lot less intelligent than animals.

Sorry, don't give a damn.

Cruelty is not the problem here. Immoral maybe, but not cruel. Not when you consider the standard many people implement on their pets that we as a society consider humane. Do you think all dogs have naturally pointy ears or super short stubby tails? Do you have any idea what happens to a cat when they are de-clawed? What about the idea of surgery to keep an animal quiet? I'm against animal cruelty, but it sounds to me like this lady found a stray cat, pierced it, and found it a home. I'm more disgusted by people's negative and ignorant comments than by the article itself.

This is no more cruel than circumcision. Babies aren't given a choice there either. Don't you people have better things to be outraged about?

Cruel things happen to people all the time, but pierce a dogs ears and you're Joseph Mengele. Get a life.

Jail.

Good I bet the sold well...

I Should buy a few to deep fat fry.

I don't know about animal cruelty and jail time. I mean I've definitely seen some pictures on the internet with animal owners piercing their cats ears, dogs muzzle, etc. Like others said people do it to children all the time. If it's cruelty to an animal than it's cruelty to a small child (why? because PETA who was involved in this would tell you an animal is more valuable than a small child). So the lady put in piercing that can be removed. I do believe that is more mild than when they tattoo a horse on the inside of their upper lip (a tattoo is far more painful than getting your ear pierce) or as others mentioned, getting your ears and tail cropped. Hell we tag animals all the time (for "monitoring") and I'm pretty sure that we don't use antiseptics or pain killers (other than the tranquilizer dart) when doing taggings. So to the people saying she needs to go to jail... how about your weigh in on dog cropping, tagging, small children and all these other examples and explain to me how what this lady did for $ is any different than what a scientist would do for research.

Hell go to this site
http://www.lcanimal.org/cmpgn/cmpgn_dog_research.htm#axzz0eWG8Sui0 which shows pictures of animals in research. If you think this lady needs to go to jail then all researchers using animals (whether for new cosmetics, advanced medicine, etc) should be sent to jail also. No need to be a hypocrite and think some random lady deserves jail yet we praise scientists for medical breakthroughs that involve the use of live animals to figure out.

So..... it is ok to spay or neuter an animal without their consent but not to pierce their ears? Which is crueler?

Strange world we live in.

Kids get there ears pierced all the time you think they have a choice? Only thing that bugs me is the neck piercing. But considering most people think of there pet as kids. I don't think ear piercing is wrong.

And bull nose-rings, cattle tags, and horse id's are different? i guarantee it hurts more to put a microchip in the shoulder than to pierce an ear, and peta endorses that..

It is absolutely no more barbaric than getting your baby's ears pierced.

Oh wait, THATS not illegal.

Not cruel. Just money grubbing, PETA can go die.

@chris I was with you until "Humans i think are a whole lot less intelligent than animals"

Why don't you go comment on the Cat Internet and quit trolling on ours.

This is nothing compared to PETA mass killing pets and throwing them into other peoples' dumpsters.

I wouldn't really say that she deserves jail, although i do think this is cruel. She wasn't trying to harm the kittens, after all. she simply needs to be made aware to the fact that this is kind of messed up and unnacceptable. a fine or community service or something should suffice, but why ruin some moron's life over something when she can learn the same lesson without it?

i wish i would've thought of that. I'd totally pierce my cat with cross earrings or rosaries and take to to CHURCH!!!

You can't really go with what PETA does. They once had a woman arrested for painting her dog pink with Kool-Aid for Valentines Day. (kids get there faces painted all the time, if it's non-toxic, why would anyone care?) I think the idea of taking a stray kitten (who would probably be eaten by something bigger than it) and dressing it up and selling it on the internet to someone who is willing to PAY for it (thus most likely to take good care of it) is a great idea. Just her choice of the piercings is not good for the animals b/c they will be annoyed and uncomfortable and probably injure themselves trying to rip the stuff out. Maybe a goth hair-do would have been a better choice. FYI, getting your ears pierced hurts a lot less than a vaccination, or a shot of novocaine-now that's painful) shame on people for saying it hurts so much, you know better.

This "woman"(dirtbag) needs pen time.

For all you people that say it's cruel b/c the animals didn't have a choice, I don't know how you would determine what their choice was...a questionnaire? Here's the choice 1.) live outside with no one to care about you, maybe be eaten or killed by something bigger than you, live outside in below zero temperatures and starve or 2.)get some uncomfortable piercings and live in a house with people petting and feeding you. WTF do you think they would choose?

I'll take 2 plz. Are you selling any Goth puppies as well?

OMG! I'm amazed at how many of you retards there are out there. This is NOT cruelty to animals. How in god's name do you people put your clothes on in the morning. You're wasting my oxygen. I smoked for years, and one day I might need and you're just sucking it all up. I could see people disagreeing with this, but saying it's cruelty and putting someone in jail over it??? You people are insane. Again... you're wasting my oxygen.

TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE!!!! NO EXCUSE!!! HUGE FINE, SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED NEAR AN ANIMAL AGAIN!

It is not just about the pain of the piercing, it is also about the fact that the kittens' ears are now being pulled downward - this can be disturbing to the cat and bend the cartilage. we generally pierce through the fleshy lobes, but the cat's piercing is through thin cartilage where a lot of blood goes through. there is a much higher risk for pain and infection. baby ears are pierced in clean environments and through a less sensitive area- and the earrings do not alter their ability to hear, move their ears around, or bend the shape of them . it still causes them pain and probably could be considered cruel as well. also, docking tails and ears IS cruel and has been outlawed in many countries because of this. Peddling kittens online to random people as an accessory can probably also be considered cruel - where are these kittens ending up? are they spayed and neutered? are they going to good homes? who knows??!
She should be fined big time and never allowed to own an animal again. She doesn't deserve to go to jail though, as then she would be living off of our taxes and I'd rather the prisons be saved for people who actually need to be removed from society.

How is this any different than putting a tag in a cow's ear? Or worse, declawing the poor kitty. This is minor compared to that, yet no vets go to prison for declawing cats.

What's more retarded, a lady piercing her cats ears and getting arrested for it? Or all of us jackasses talking about it for so long? Guess it's better to be easily amused than not amused at all

just because something is equally bad or better than other things - doesn't mean it is right. You robbed an old lady? well that's not as bad as killing her, right? you're an alcoholic? well that's better than being a drug addict!

maybe we need to re-think a lot of our practices on how we treat the animals we are supposed to care for. i think the real tragedy is the lack of consideration for the innocent that we are charged with caring for. peta makes b compassionate people look bad. i don't agree with a lot of the things they do either, because they are never compassionate about HUMAN rights either.

Those of you saying she should go to jail are idiots, especially those saying the cat didn't have a choice. Do cats get a choice when they're declawed? No, and that's MUCH more painful to them than an ear piercing.

With that being said, I think it's wrong, same with declawing. She should be given a warning, but jail time is a bit absurd.

Who cares? Whens the last time someone was charged with cruelty for doing a septum piercing on a bull (you know the 'Bull Ring')

I hope she'll be fined big time too, and that her business and reputation get ruined..

You are right, I better stop looking at it, the more I look at it, the more adorable it becomes. (but you can't go around putting piercings in the back of their necks-gross)

Am I the only one who thought they looked cute like this?

I missed the part before where it said she was a dog groomer. How do we know she doesn't have access to drugs for them and they didn't feel any pain?

who cares they are just cats, for gods sake people eat them all the time

Should she go to jail? No, not really. She is a moron though. But you gotta give her credit. She took something that has been happening to people for thousands of years and did it to a cat. Hopefully though this won't become a trend. But how is it any different than people cropping ears and tails on dogs? Its just for decoration, just like these "goth kitties", and no other reason. In California, they are passing a law that says its inhumane to declaw a cat. I heard on the radio that PETA thinks the whole groundhog thing is cruel. When it comes to "cosmetics" who is right and who is wrong?

As for the people saying its not different than peircing a baby or child's ears. Your right, to an extent. I don't think babies should have their ears peirced, but its not because it looks "tacky, cheap, and vile" as violet says. Babies get ear infections and they pull on their ears. So its safe to say they might eventually pull the earings out. However, once they get to be 3 or 4, I don't see the problem. My daughter wanted her ears peirced when she was 3. I explained it might hurt and even pinched her ear a little to show her. She said she still wanted it done. So we went and got them done and she didn't cry one bit.

But, this story isn't about children gettin their ears peirced. Its about kittens getting their ears peirced. Cruel? Possibly, since it does hurt. Stupid? Yea just a bit.

Ps did she do this to all colors of kittens or just black ones like in the picture? If she did, how could it be a "goth kitty"? I thought goth was all about black?

There's nothing wrong with this. It cannot possibly be that painful for the kittens, and as far as choice goes there are plenty other example of things that pet owners do that pets don't have a choice about. Example: shock collars. Or any other form of training for that matter.

Now, selling kittens like accessories is probably wrong.

But piercing them in the first place, as long as it's not harmful (which it is not) is not wrong. Think about that the next time your child gets a shot or your dog gets scolded for jumping on the furniture.

>.> She gave a cat an earing to make it cuter and she had her house raided.....She was nice took precausions...I don't believe that its wron I think its cool....But...Come on RAIDED HER HOUSE???....Over a bunch of kitten earings?....She even did it on the parts that they have lower nerve endings!...Virtually no pain!

oh! hey there cat... do you want to get your ear piercec. Meaw means yes.. common people how do you know the car doesnt want to be cool and have some piercings

The act was not smart, but hardly a crime. Come'on people, the bottom line is that she saved a stray cat!! By selling a stray, she basically guaranteed that little poor cat a lifetime of happiness, shelter, and food.

Like a lot of the comments above, piercing sucks a lot less than other modifications such as declawing, getting ears/tails cut, tattoos, branding, birth control procedures, etc. Worst yet, think about the animals who are raised solely for the purpose of being eating. At the most she should just get a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

Jail time is going to be stupid and way too excessive for this case. She is not a hardened criminal. Our jail system is already overflowing with criminals that should be locked up forever, but are being released early because of budget issues or lack of available rooms. Why lock up a contributing member of society (a dog groomer) for doing something that might cause some discomfort, but ultimately saved a cat from a short life of terror on the streets?

She definitely deserves to be punished. I can't believe anyone would do that to kittens. :/

Yet it is okay for babies to be circumcised? I bet 90% of the parents posting here have done this to their baby.

Let me see if I have this right.

People can lob off a Doberman Pinchers and a Min Pin's tail, trim their ears down to a point, which has to hurt like hell and is supported by the AKC, but they can't give a piercing to a cat?

I wonder how many animals died because they were wasting their time going after this lady?

Awwe! How cute! I want one!

Oh and for those who hate it when babies have earrings, the tip of my penis was cut off when I was a baby and this is still done to babies everyday nowadays.

Where is your outrage now?!

Most likely she will be punished with 1 year probation.

"Cheryl said: Its cruel. Why? Because the animals aren't given a choice.

The story has nothing to do with babies getting pierced. Its about kittens.

Why do you people always insist on changing the subject at hand??"

Umm, Well on top of you saying the kittens have no choice, so it is "Cruel" Do you own a pet? Did you give any of your pets the choice to live with you? No, you wanted a pet yo make yourself happy, so you got one. Its not animal cruelty. Putting cloths on dogs and dressing them up as fairy's is cruel, they don't have a choice. Feeding your dog puppy chow is cruel... They don't have a choice. This is just another classic example of an American who would like to make some money. Obviously she like animals.. She took the stray cat in. If she saw the cat, said "Fuck you your a stray cat" and left that wouldn't be cruel right.. because the cat had a choice. IT could have gotten up and followed her. lol I'm ranting entirely too much, I just hate all these PETA fanatics. I don't want animals to be punished or treated shitty, but cm'on people

Did she actually sell any?

The trouble with pets = http://bit.ly/O8vF2

Oh Marie Heck,
I just looked that up and you are right about Punxatawney Phil. How could they? I am from a town in PA about 1/2 hour from Punxatawney and unfortunately I can never forgive myself for missing getting Bill Murray's autograph when the Ground Hog Day movie came out. They have totally crossed the line, they are terrible people. I had to laugh when I read the one article that the response by the Ground Hogs club was "I can't believe they (PETA) are free to roam the streets without medication." Too true. The people who wrote that letter should be considered insane until PROVEN sane and promptly committed to the nut house for life. There is nothing wrong with what they do to that ground hog. Supposedly they are shy, they are not, they like people and I have been followed by one more than once.

there is one inherient problem with every single post about this lady.. everyone seems to forget that this cat was her property, and as such, she had a right to modify it and sell it. its an animal, a pet, a piece of property. it has already been said that peta doesnt do anything about docking animals, or branding cattle, or tatooing horses.. so she pierced a cat.. big deal.. it was her choice, not petas, not the courts.. hers. there arent any laws that i am aware of that forbid you to modify your pet, or else "fixing" your animal would be illegal, and seeing how docking and other modifications are allowed under so called law, she did nothing wrong.

I don't think it's that cruel to have put piercing in the ears or necks of animals. If this goes through as being cruel, the way we raise livestock by tagging their ears or putting a ring on a bull's nose will have to come under scrutiny.
An animal does have rights, but should not to be considered equal as a human being. The parents that pierce their baby's ears shouldn't face cruelty charges, but should face charges if their kid becomes the next hawthorne heights band. Do we really need to give kids any more reason to become popular by bitching and ranting about how bad their lives are?

PETA sucks massive ass & dick. Punxutawney is a small township of only 10k people in PA (which is a very economically depressed area) How dare they imply that Phil should be replaced and a 120 year tradition for this little town and all it's residents be stopped. You suck PETA and there is a special place in hell waiting for you for this one. Phil gets great treatment and he always looks like he's smiling in his pictures, probably because he is laughing at how dumb PETA is.

haha i have the same bar through my ear. i think it's cute and as long as the woman is piercing it safely than it's fine. kittens are tough.

these guys r tight as fuck i would def buy one if i could

I in no way condone this, but after going through a painful two weeks of having to give my cat fluids through an IV, I can tell you that it doesn't hurt cats half as much to be stuck with a needle as it does humans. They have less nerves per square inch of their skin.

Of course, though, I don't think it's okay to do anything like that to an animal. I'm sure the kitties were uncomfortable wearing jewelry. People who dye their dog's fur really piss me off, too.

People do a lot of things to their animals, and this is hardly the worst of it. Clipping ears, docking tails, removing claws, disabling genitals, its all against the animals will, so that is an invalid argument. The only thing worth pointing out is that piercings can get caught on things because the animal wouldn't be conscious of it. Definitely not cruelty. PETA freaks obviously don't know that much about the organization or they wouldn't be repping them so much. The majority of animals they "save" are put down. Check it out - http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

The case of babies: I got my ears pierced when I was two months old. I was living in Spain, and being historically Italian it was no big deal. I personally have always loved earrings so I've kept them in. My little cousin, however, is a different story. She also got her ears pierced as a child, but at three years old told all of us, "I DO NOT LIKE THESE!" and ripped them out, so we let her take them out. Humans eventually have the choice to take out a piercing, kittens, however, will never have this choice.

Cruelty to animals? Give me a break. Sure it may look stupid, but it is in no way cruel. Piercing barely even hurts, and certainly hurts no more than a tattoo, Tags, brands, RFID, etc..., which many pet have been subjected to.

Animals don't have a choice about any of those. Where is all the boohooing over that?

The sensitivity of people these days is downright sickening.

We grow, kill, and eat many different types of animal, in less than comfortable conditions. If that is legal, then this should probably be legal too. Whether it is ethical is another issue.

This is a little cruel, but come on. No jail time, just a fine, and have her grooming license taken away.

look bottom line. was she making money off the cats? yes. Was she Pulling strays off the streets from a county that does not have a no kill policy for their pounds? yes. was investing money in these animals to make them more appealing to buyers? yes. was she qualified? as far as im concerned yes. even tho i hate emo goth assholes and now i hate them even more that they have a pet option "waiting for black kitten mittens and kitty trench coat" i see this merely as a group with power trying to flex its overinflated legal penis on something they feel they can safely affect. SCREW PETA, SCREW VEGANS SCREW YOU oversensitive meat has feeling dumdnuts. im thru with this.

I think this is mean, but the comment just previous said it's cruel because you give the animal no choice.... but I don't see any dogs or cats given a choice to be neutered or not and that hurts....

Again with the choices?!?! Come back from outer space. The only choice I've ever seen my dog make is which tree to pee on.

How is that any more "cruel" than the ID tags put into the ears of cattle? That process rarely includes the precautions and care used with human (or cat) piercings.

As a well educated individual (BS and MS in Biology), a veterinary technician for over five years AND a resident of Wilkes-Barre, I can 100% say this woman deserves punishment for her actions. What this article fails to mention is that she attempted to dock the cat's tails with rubberbands and that the 'piercings' were not being treated properly and in turn became infected. Some claim that this is no more cruel than ear cropping, declawing, debarking, general surgery, microchipping, etc., but I beg to differ. In the state of PA debarking is illegal. In the city of W-B you'd be hard pressed to find a doctor who performs ear cropping. Microchipping is done via needle (like one used for injections). Declawing and general surgeries are done under anesthesia protocols with appropriate pain medications. The consequences to not spaying/neutering your pet are not limited to unwanted litters but include increased risk of mammary tumors/pyometras/testicular/prostate/ rectal cancers. Today at work I had an 11 year old Lab present with a prolapsed uterus and was euthanized. Those who think humans are far superior to other species on this earth have a lot to learn. Treating anyone (human/animal) without the respect and care they deserve is a crime and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Perhaps if the consequences were appropriate it would prevent others from thinking they are above the law and above taking responsibility for their actions.

Her actions were inhumane (look at the kitty's ears droop! saaad!) but so is Peta.

Slap her on the wrist, or better yet poke a hole through her somehow.

I wouldn't push for jail time, but I feel she was wrong. I hate PETA and having to be even the tiniest bit on their side hurts like crazy. My issue with this is, cats are not like humans. We can take out or ear rings or other piercings should they irritate us or become infected. We are able to clean the piercings so infection doesn't set in. Cats can't do that. I'm only speculating here, so please forgive me if I'm off base, but I would think that a cat would have a higher risk of infection due to using a litter box and grooming themselves. I could be wrong, it's just something I'm throwing out there. Maybe Leigh can set me straight. I have cats and mine are constantly rolling in the covers and doing other things that would pull these piercings right out. That concerns me too. I'd imagine the risk of the cats pulling the piercings out would be pretty high.

I'm not a big fan of any modification to animals. Mine are spayed/neutered and that's it.

...and who the hell cares?

You're an asshole if you think this woman should go to jail.

If you can cut a cat's balls off, why can't you pierce it's ears?

The trouble with pets = http://bit.ly/O8vF2

to everyone that is complaining about how this cat is "suffering"...

i really hope that you dont eat meat. cause i promise those animals suffer a hundred fold what that cat has.

so guess what? that means that just about all of us actively support animal cruelty with our own dollars.

turn that finger right around to yourself people. you may not necessarily "profit" off hurting an animal, but you sure do enjoy your cheap chicken sandwich don't you?

Well those cats are being given a right that humans don't have. My foreskin was chopped off without my consent and I can't do a damn thing about it.

Actually, Joebob, you CAN do something about it! There are men who actually work at reforming foreskin on their penises. Look into it if it really bothers you. It's not supposed to be painful, although it looks a little odd.

I can't believe some of the responses out here! WOW!

Julie: Screw You!

Jean: You Dumb Fuck...animals are ASLEEP when they are micro-chipped, etc.!

David: ALL animals are just as important, if not MORE, than humans. They can NOT SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES...humans CAN AND DO, You ASSHOLE!!!

I AM A VET! This Chick NEEDS to go to JAIL but, the sad fact is there are no LAWS on the books for this BULLSHIT! That's the PROBLEM! If you did this to a child...totally different story!

ALL animals are very loving and it's UNCONDITIONAL, PURE
LOVE! They DON'T care if you have bad breath or a bad-hair day...ALL love you ANYWAY!!! They ONLY seek...food, water and LOVE! That is ALL they require...EVER! They DEPEND upon their owners for these FEW SIMPLE things. In turn, YOU ARE LOVED FOREVER!!!

The SADDEST part of this story is that this FOOL worked in the animalcare field? I hope the BEAUTIFUL KITTY IS OKAY!!!

Cheryl, why do you insist on being a nimrod? This is easily compared to babies getting piercings as that person said. It's not changing the subject.

I do not mean to be prejudice here either, but animals should not be subject to fashion trends. They are animals. If you want to put a shirt on your animal that is designed for that animal then fine, but don't subject your desire to punch holes in yourself on your animal or any animal for that matter. It's ridiculous.

They brand farm animals with hot steel. A cat is not a farm animal. It's a pet and should be treated as such.

I like puppies!

I dress my 50 ft. python up in lingerie all the time and he doesn't really seem to mind.

I think it is ok to peirce a cat if u ask the cat "kitty do u want a peircing?" If the cat verbally and physically answers' "yes" than and only than is it ok!IN OTHERWISE ITS NOT OK!!

"otherwords" not otherwise for all you spelling typo zombies!! or other words

Legalise it. Regulate it. Tax it.

This isn't cruel. They're her kittens, she can do whatever she wants, unless it's terribly cruel, which this certainly isn't. Animals don't (or shouldn't) have rights.
There are terrible things people do to animals in the name of the fast food industry, or their own pets, etc. This is harmless. Move on.

People the real issue here is your personal freedom. Stand up for hers or you'll lose the freedoms you care about when the majority feels they are ridiculous.

SHE SHOULD GO TO JAIL OR PUNISH HER ..

THAT IS A BAD THING TO DO TO HUMANS OR ANIMALS ..

THATS MY OPINION!!! HAVE GOOD DAY PPL

I LOVE ANIMALS

kenny is an idiot to say animals do not have feelings, have you ever seen an animal before in real life dumbass? what an ignorant asshole,are you one of those religious psychos that say they do not go to heaven either? even though heaven is not real!? WOW right when you think people cant be more stupid that idiot lady would not even think something like that I'm sure!

I've had my nipples pierced and it isn't painful at all. Having grown up on a farm all of our animals are tagged, and can tell you that yea, it's not pleasant for them, but within a few days and with proper care the tags (giant piercings) heal.

I think theres too many psycho cat people out here saying this lady is evil incarnate. She's clearly greedy, and probably thought online goth kittens was uber business-savy. But I don't think the animals should be taken away from her. Nor should she go to jail at all.

Perhaps a fine at most. And keeping her under watch for any more weird behaviour. But if she's a groomer and has done this kinda thing before, the animals are probably safe. There isn't a huge science to piercings. It's been done for thousands of years.

Just my 2 cents.

In the Philippines, there are farmers who put large rings on water buffaloes that are used for plowing the rice fields. These rings are used for the rope to be tied to so that the farmer can guide the water buffalo whenever he is plowing a field.

The only problem with the earrings and other piercings on those cats that I do not agree with is that, those kittens were not meant to be pierced in the first placed, they are cats kept as pets not a rice field plowing water buffalo.

im eating a kitten right now with battery hen fried eggs while lounging on my panda skin rug watching abattoir action dvds

Punish her????Maybe???

There is an old saying "an eye for an eye"!
Apply the same cruelty lets priece her ears. The pain she will feel then she will understand what the kitten went through.
-------------------------------------------------------------
lets outlaw prieceings.

/jk

Ever eat meat that you didn't catch yourself? Is so than you are twice as guilty as this woman. At least her intention was for these animals to go to homes, not on dinner plates after their brains were smashed in with hammers or they were drowned so they could be eaten by people who can't stomach doing the killing themselves. Sure she's stupid, but so is most of society. Now stop arguing and go eat your Big Macs.

To the guys that are crying over their foreskin being taken away from them, and the one who said all the parents on here can't say they haven't had their sons circumscised or whatever, no I don't know what its like since I am a woman and I only have a daughter and neices. But I have also been told by several doctors that if it is not done at such and early age, the risk for infections is bigger. Also if you ever do decide to have it done when your older, its more painful and the risk of infection is worse. So question to you guys who want your foreskin back: if you had to do it all over again, and you wanted it removed, would you rather have it done when you couldn't remember it or later in life? Like I said, I'm a woman so I don't know what its like to miss my foreskin. But I'm pretty sure, if I was a guy, that I wuld rather have t done when I couldn't remember it! Sorry, couldn't help but comment on those comments!

Also, not everyone has their pets "fixed" for their own reasons. I had my female fixed because she has a disorder in where the eggs don't form correctly so her puppies had a higher and higher chance of being deformed. After her second litter (4 puppies) where 2 came out deformed and she sat on one and killed it and I tried to keep the other one alive, I found this out. Had I known that from the beginning, I would have had her fixed sooner. Also, as the vet above mentions, there are certain diseases that spaying/neutering can prevent.

In a way, I think the kitten pictured looks kinda cute! But I wouldn't ever do it to my animals. Other people on here are right, what if its caught in something? I have gotten an ear ring stuck in a shirt before and almost ripped it out and it hurts!

Rocki,

My husband also said that PETA wants Phil to be replaced with a robot groundhog. Not quite sure how that will work out! I know its a big thing and all, but I don't really go by what Phil says! I am an avid animal lover, but I don't support PETA at all.

I don't think she needs jail, that's just a waste of tax payers money. Maybe a fine and some community service and to be monitered with animals, but not jail. There are people out there doing far worse things than her. Safe the jail space for them!

Everyone has an opinion.....She is not that dumb she made 100's of dollars off a stray cats. I do think it cruel. I do not see anything wrong with getting babies or children's ears pierced. Back to the kittens earings are not meant for cats, I am sure it is painfull, but what about getting a dogs ears and tails cropped? That's painfull and I think should be illegal.

It's not a matter of opinion. It's stupid, cruel and was done for financial gain. There is no excuse for for this woman or for anyone else who mutilates any animal for whatever reason.
Why is this so hard to understand?

Um... at first i was appalled by what this lady was doing but when i started to think about what Americans do to millions of farm animals in the beef industry, for example, we're talking branding in some instances, forced to live in piles of their own shit just to be murdered for food... when compared i think piercing a cats ears isn't really that bad. We think of bull rings and branding normal for cows but for a cat its somehow different?
Double standards i say... I do not think this lady ought be punished while cattle execs are making millions from the maltreatment of animals.

If you can tattoo pigs, then why can't you pierce cats? There just animals for Christ's sake. We give them a free ride, they amuse us in return.

Pet owners cut off their pets' balls, claws, and trim their ears/tails all the time, yet now people are getting upset over a couple stupid piercings.

It was an idiotic idea, so let's take the cats away and slap her with a fine, but by no means should we waste our money paying for her to face an extended trial and jail-time. Jail needs to be reserved for much more serious offenses.

Dude this guy needs his arms broken, in several places.

RT
www.web-privacy.cz.tc

This is right in my back yard (so to speak), the trial finished yesterday and she was found guilty of animal cruelty, her sentencing is coming up shortly and she is expected to get about 4 years in prison. The cats, of course, have been sentenced to a lifetime of being deformed. What wasn't mentioned in the article here is the fact that she also put rubber bands on their tails to stop the blood flow so their tails would fall off. She claims to be an animal lover, I find that hard to believe. I asked one of my cats if he would still love me if I did that to him, he just dug one of his sharp claws into my testicles and said "How do you like it?"

Cruelty with a dash of stupidity

Jesus, so many retards commenting. "OH GOD PIERCINGS ON A KITTEN" But it's okay to circumcise small babies, or get their ears pierced? Because they have can choose? :D:D:D:D:D I'm not saying it's okay to do it, to kittens or babies. Seriously what the f*ck is up with the stupidity? This woman needs to be fined, not jailed. (Or hey, it's your tax money, I couldnt give a shit less what you want to do with her)

Everyone here who says that this lady should be punished is a hypocrite. Pure and simple.
Ask yourself these questions?
- Have you ever had a pet spayed or neutered?
- Have you had a cat declawed?
- Clipped your puppy's ears or tail?

All of the above are deemed "socially acceptable" yet you are mutilating your pets. Declawing a cat is especially cruel since the process involves removing the last segment of each toe; the equivalent of cutting off the last section of each of your fingers and toes.

Pull your heads out of your asses.

Psh. I wouldn't Pay THAT much.

Lol

Okay, the pierced ears are adorable. If you can give cows ear tags, and humans ear tags than why not cats. Seriously, chill the fuck out. All long as the kittens are still healthy and happy and able to move around it's fine. We cut their NUTS OFF FOR CHRIST SAKE!

Piercing our pets now! please....what has gone wrong with society. Is it cruel? of course. The animal had no choice and my god how does that jewellery weighing down the kittens ears even look appealing to anyone. Charge her, do whatever. And in response to Davids comment. Animals are here to serve us! Climb down buddy. Humans are the only species that is cruel so we should never put ourselves up on a pedestal like that.

How stupid. How long be fore a piercing gets caught and you have a ripped ear? It just another way for someone to make money - it's gall greed.

that is some messed up stuff

I'm astonished at the number of people here who don't understand how this is cruel and why. The ignorance here is just nauseating. No wonder this country is so screwed.

It is cruel not because the animals aren't given a choice. It's cruel because it causes pain for no reason that could benefit the animal. There is no moral justification for a human to afflict pain on any living being except to help that living being, i.e. medical procedures to improve or save the animal's life. For a human to willfully afflict pain onto an animal like this for any other reason is morally reprehensible and is rightfully a criminal act, as society ought to protect us from such kinds of persons. Furthermore, it causes pain for human gain. That is exploitation. And it causes pain for human pleasure. That is sadistic. These are all reasons why things like docking and cropping dogs' tails and ears are increasingly outlawed, and rightfully so. To not think these things are cruel, exploitative and sadistic is ignorant, immature or sociopathic, or all of the above. I don't like PETA, but this woman is a criminal and she needed to be stopped.

Hey all you people, aren't there people staving in haiti?

Her actions are shameless indeed. However, tt does make me question why cropping ears and docking tails on some breeds is considered alright.

There are much bigger and more questionable acts that go on under people noses of much greater scales. For example, the Pit Bull Cull in Denver. Link below is not for the faint of heart.

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/10/leaked_photos_of_dead_pit_bull.php

Seriously? It's a frickin cat, who cares what she did to it. I'll pierce a cat, right before I shave it, slit its throat and throw it on the barbeque... what about the bolts they shoot through a cows head just before you have a steak, it didn't have a choice..stupid muthers.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

Nuff said.

I don't think she should go to jail for this, just have the cats taken away. One thing to consider, cows and bulls often have their noses pierced and have rings installed, why is that okay? Furthermore kittens AND dogs often have RFID chips planted in the ears or below the skin, do you really think these aren't painful or that they 'can't be felt' like the vet says? (think again ;P)

This is absolutely stupid! I don't understand why always people must disfigure animals. Either by special breedings or by putting something on them what the animals surely irritate and dislike. Just let them be as they are ! They are beautiful as nature made them and they don't need the human clowning. I think this woman made it first just for the crazy idea and then finally as usual for the money. She must be punished, because for the animal it surely is a frightened thing to have those stupid piercings.

@ Suzanne

So, teenagers are dumb now are they?

I don't know about yourself, but I certainly would not have had anything to do with this sort of barbaric behaviour against these defenseless animals when I was a teen, and neither would any of my teenagers.

I think you need to rethink your prejudices against people who have done nothing wrong, but who are simply in a part of society which is easy to generalise.

Please rethink your words before you say anything so uninformed again. Thank you.

PETA started out with good intentions and over the years have declined in both their sanity and morality. YES, they do kill animals that people call in to take off their hands, animals they swear they want to protect. If killing them is protecting them in PETA's way of thinking and animals are more important than human beings I shudder to think what they would do if a child predator moved in next door to them, imagine the fear their children live in waiting for mommy and daddy to "protect" them. Oh wait, they won't because their children are not animals and they are not as important as animals. Shew, good thing those kids are safe eh?

They want animals to have all these rights, when all any animal needs is a safe and loving home where they are treated with compassion, and taken care of through feeding and having clean water each day. Animals don't care beyond that. Do these pets vote? Pay taxes? Work to provide for their families? No. It's we the humans of the world who do that, even in providing for our pets families when they do have kittens and puppies. So why do these pets need "rights"?

As for people, PETA continues to strip away our rights as pet owners, you know the people who ARE responsible enough to keep even one more dog or cat off the streets, from starving, being used in animal testing or being killed by PETA in order to save them. PETA also abuses humankind. Chasing innocent people around throwing items like rotten fruits and vegetables and YES even paint on them (do they know the paint isn't toxic? Does it have lead as one of its base components? Are they sure that the person they are throwing these things are isn't allergic to them?? I know people who are allergic to tomatoes) and they even send threatening letters to people. Is that not mental abuse when you threaten someone with physical abuse?

If you ask me, PETA has became the real criminals. Not the people wearing furs or eating meat or even this lady who pierced a cats ears. PETA has made themselves into a joke.

I'd be more likely to support this woman who found a way to make pets more appealing to another culture of our society (Goth or not they are people too), thus giving someone who might not otherwise considered taking in a stray animal not only a loyal and loving pet but also giving the cat a safe home where they will get to live out their life in contentment without fear of being eaten, killed or starving or worse being swooped off those very streets this lady took them from to be used in animal testing, before I would ever support PETA.

I really don't see what the big deal is? I don't feel sorry for the idiot that would have paid money for the cat in this condition. I don't really see the point in piercing a cat let alone any animals ears, but if it is this girls choice to do so, then I think that is fine. How do you know the cat experienced pain at all? I think its pointless to pierce a cats ears, but because something is stupid doesn't make it wrong or illegal. It was this woman's cat and I think she should be allowed to take care of it as she feels fit.

I rescue cats from local shelters all the time for dinner. Leaner meat than chicken, cheaper too...

Cheryl said:
Its cruel. Why? Because the animals aren't given a choice.

Posted 02/03/2010 at 07:44:31 AM

How do you know that kitten wasn't given a choice? How do you the kitten wasn't surfing the web and stumbled upon "lolcatz" and was disgusted at what it saw and longed to be different. How do you know that kitten was excited when given the chance to really show its "goth side" and rebel from its mother who has been nagging it to get neutered and declawed? How do you know this kitten isn't troubled because no one understand him and he's in a tough time filled with hormones and feelings he's never had to deal with before, and for the first time, his piercings are allowing him to find his uniqueness and separate himself from his other 23 siblings, who surprisingly, look just like him?

Aside from being cruel, I also just find it so obnoxious that people impose their subculture image on their pets to the point that it inflicts pain. Grow up! Not only that, but I am about 100% sure that the ears of dogs and cats are 10X more sensitive than ours. The earlobe is all flesh, you're talking punching through cartilage. Which, if you're a kid and psych yourself up to have it done to yourself, that's your body and your right. To shock a cat by doing it without warning is mean. They will be traumatized by it. And in regards to livestock, it may be sad, but it's a means to an end to put food on your table. Not nearly the same thing by a long shot. Even though I don't eat pig or beef, I can objectively see that.

Not to mention I am sure it impairs sensory features of their ears that we can't even relate to, having them perforated and weighted down by heavy jewelry.

Plus, the ring in the neck is even sicker. Kittens may have extra skin like that to be carried in their early lives, but piercing it? If you allowed your cat to grow to adulthood with a ring in its back, you deserve a fine just like the piercer does! Don't inflict your S&M fantasies on your pets!

Our barbaric traditions should not be shared with the animal kingdom. Feline anatomy and human are not the same and should not be regarded as such. Their bodies are designed to keep them alive in the wild and their ears are especially sensitive to pressure and weight. I am not sure what bothers me more that she was doing this or that she created a business out of it (meaning there was a market). She should not only go to jail but lose her groomers license and pay such a hefty fine that she can no longer afford to keep animals for the rest of her life.

To Maureen,
You are full of shit, you aren't a vet. If you were you would know that dogs/cats are definately NOT asleep when they are microchipped, anyone with a microchipped pet knows all it is is a big ole needle and it hardly even hurts.

If this is cruelty, then so is tagging cows and hitting turkeys in the head with a stick to kill them for eating, and smashing baby pigs on the ground to kill them for food, but you people don't want to give up your burgers, thanksgiving dinner, or bacon because of that. But piercing a kitten is evil. Piercings don't hurt that bad, I have had parts of me peirced over 20 times.

So if this women should go to jail, should all the parents who pierce their baby girls' ears without consent and circumcise their baby boys' without consent go to jail as well? This is a CAT. If you're going to stand up for the rights of a living being to their body, how about a baby HUMAN? Are they less important than an animal? Way to go, PETA.

Ryan, I was thinking the same thing, just didn't have the guts to say it. Thank you.

Cruel? Sure. Stupid? Definitely. Jail? No.

Having your ears pierced doesnt really hurt, and cat ears are cartlidge for the most part. The dangley earings are just stupid since they could rip out easily and hurt the cat 10x more than a piercing gun would. I assume she used a piercing gun because of the sentence "But she says she took the same precautions with piercing that she would with a human."
Now, the ear piercing I find wrong but "go directly to jail do NOT pass go, do NOT collect $200" wrong, but the submission ring on the back of their neck is a little too far - maybe not jail time far but far enough for me to understand where those who feel like its necessary are coming from. That I see as cruel because its attented to be pulled on to keep them in line. When its pulled on I'd assume it causes pain. The earings are more of a one time quick pain and -viola- its done. It shouldnt hurt unless its ripped out (which is why the dangley earings are just idiotic).

The reason I dont feel like the ear piercing is worthy of jail time is because people pierce dog ears, they clip dog ears, they even cut off part of their tails in certain breeds. This is no crueler than that. If I were an animal, I'd take a piercing over losing part of my tail.

When I was 14 it would have been a dream come true to be with any of these women.
They should get jobs at colleges where they won't get in trouble for shaggin the students.

I find this pretty stupid, and greedy. maybe a little bit cruel, but nothing she should go to jail over. not even fined really, just prohibited from selling them.

like others have said, its a goddamned cat. Round up all the circumcised little boys, and little girls with ear piercings first, and charge their parents. Then we can talk about charging this dumb woman.

Carly and Mathew, didn't I just refute those points you tried to make immediately before you posted your most recent ones? A logical argument that truly aims to influence other peoples' opinions would be to show me first where I'm wrong in what I stated, not just repeating the original point that led me to posting my comment. Otherwise, you appear to not even be reading the comments that don't agree with yours.

In regards to clipping ears, definitely I am adamantly opposed to all forms of that for the very same reasons I object to this. Regarding circumcision, I do agree that there is an excellent argument for not doing that without anesthesia, which is why we are seeing a large movement over the last few decades to have that practice stopped. The fact that a lot of people are advocating for putting an end to it, I believe, pokes holes in that argument (pun intended). As far as piercing ears, again, ear lobes are flesh. I don't buy it that piercing cartilage is painless. And again, if someone chooses to do it, they are prepared for it. Doing it to a pet without warning, without them being able to anticipate what is coming is cruel. Plus, once the heavy rings are dangling in ears so many more times sensitive to ours, it probably DOES cause constant discomfort and even pain. It certainly seems like it could impair what their ears are meant to do. Haven't you noticed how much more mobility dogs and cats ears have?! There's a reason for that!

Pathetic! Holly Crawford you soooo get "The Stupid Cunt of the week award!

Humans think they can do anything they want. JUST LEAVE ANIMALS ALONE!!! Don't pretend to be a mommy and daddy to an animal and try to have them do everything humans are doing! Animals are different , they don't need or WANT stupid clothes and pierced ears! Geeeezzz!!

This is SO sick, I'm very disappointed in Holly she should of known better. I hope nobody else did this to their cats when they saw this.
Cats use their ears like sattelite disks for hearing, I'm sure the cats hate that they can't hear like they used to. I bet the ear rings are torn out causing the cats great pain and now disfigured ears!!!
Jail time Holly Crawford. And how about putting 20 pound earings on her ears?

Piercing the cats ears, wierd? Yeah, a little. But no real harm. Now you wanna talk animal cruelty, there was an article on here about a girl that put a cat in an oven and then cranked it up to 500 degrees. Ok THAT is animal cruelty, you all are blowing this WAY out of proportion. How about this, if you want her thrown in PRISON so badly for putting earrings in a cats ears, all of you get together and YOU pay the bill of her serving her prison sentance. Prison is meant for violent criminals, people who are a danger to society, not for giving an animal jewelry.

It is a shame you cannot legislate against stupidity. This woman is truly stupid!

No harm, huh? It would be just fine then if we hold you down and pierce you somewhere sensitive and delicate without your consent? Right? And we shouldn't get punished for it either, cuz really, it wasn't such a violent crime, was it? After all, we just made you prettier, right? Come on, get real! I doubt the "no real harm" statement would apply if someone did this to you RYAN. . . All sentient beings deserve the same consideration!
As for the "goth" thing,I don't think it's fair to drag the sub culture into it. It's too bad she was "goth" gives them yet another obstacle. Of all I have known who consider (ed) themselves "goth", I have never seen any be unkind to an animal, and actually have seen higher instances of animal and earth concerns in the gothic and punk communities than in many others.

And BTW:
Crawford was convicted of one misdemeanor and one summary count of animal cruelty.

I think she got lucky :(

This woman needs help and I hope she gets it. My heart breaks for these animals. If she gets help and doesn't do this anymore, it will be justice for them.

Audryna,
All sentient beings deserve the same consideration sure, to a certain extent. Using your way of thinking, and the example you gave me of me being held down and my ears pierced, we shouldn't keep animals in cages either should we? I mean using your logic YOU wouldn't want to be kept in a cage right? Or how about leashes, we shouldn't use those either should we? I'm sure you wouldn't want to be walked around on a leash (maybe you would who knows). How about the microchipping, maybe we should stop doing that to our pets too because you wouldn't want the DMV to "hold you down" and implant your ID or drivers license under your skin would you? Wait here's one for you, maybe we should stop letting out pets do their business outside where other people can see, because YOU would find it embarassing if you had to do it wouldn't you? And by your logic "all sentient beings deserve the same consideration"........you see how idiotic your point is?

Your way of thinking is moronic. Piercing a cats ears is DEFINATELY not an offense worthy of jail time. Is it right? No, I think it's pretty stupid, but a violent act? No way.

I'm not saying what this chick did is right, I'm just saying that piercing a cats ears is a grey on the animal cruelty department and is not a crime worthy of jail.

*I meant "grey area"*

So it was stupid. She at least took proper precautions. Beat her with a clue-by-four and mock her for life, but don't waste tax dollars and jail space keeping her locked up.

So it's only animal cruelty if it's extreme, Ryan? LE should just look the other way if it is a more "harmless" form of self-indulgence on the part of humans at the expense of their pets' physical discomfort?

Cropping ears and docking tails is NOT right, and it is NOT a good defense for doing whatever other body modifications you think are cool to your pet either!

It may not warrant prison time the way that beating an animal violently does, but I absolutely hope a very stiff fine is involved. It sounds like she was let off pretty easily. And I agree she should lose her ability to work with animals permanently. She's proven herself too irresponsible in that regard. Time to find a new career.

Yes, it's different! If I pinch your ass, it's annoying, if I beat the living hell out of you, it's cruel! Painful suffering = cruel. Otherwise, the discomfort of walking to your car in the rain, going to the dentist, returning your library books when you are tired, getting gas when it's hot or cold out, would all be "cruel"

Did I say "it's only animal cruelty if it's extreme" J? J must stand for Jacksass, you must have left out the other letters so I'll spell your whole name from here on out. Well Jackass, any reasonable and prudent person can determine what would be considered "animal cruelty". Is putting earrings on a cat "animal cruelty" like I said it's a grey area, was she intentionally trying to cause the cat harm or physical pain just to do it? No. Was it kinda mean for the sole reason that earrings don't belong on animals? Yup.
So Jackass, please explain to me why cropping ears and docking tails is not right. Maybe if it's done while the animal isn't asleep where they feel the pain of it being done I'd agree with you. But if you say cropping and docking is animal cruelty, well then isn't that saying every single vet out there is guilty of animal cruelty? Hmmmm a vet that takes care of and heals sick and injured animals purposly harming pets by cropping and docking...........yeah I don't see it.

Good point rocki

You haven't refuted my point, you did/are suggesting that this is not animal cruelty, yet you are contradicting yourself above. It's "mean" but not cruel? How subjective. You don't seem to be able to meet someone challenging your points without resorting to personal insults, either, which is just simple-minded.

I don't need to explain to you why I feel docking tails and ears is wrong, Ryan. I think modifying an animal's body for aesthetics is unnecessary, gross and cruel, as they have to suffer with open wound healing on them. Severing cartilage and bone so a dog can be show-worthy is sick. Spaying and neutering them, as unsavory as that is, does have a humanitarian purpose. The others are just selfishness on the owner's part, usually so they can have a pedigreed dog, and it's sick.

Ryan, most of the time, tail docking is done without putting the dog to sleep. Well, I don't know if "most" is accurate, but at least not always. Also, the tail contains way more than cartiledge, so I can kind of understand why people see this as cruel. My dog's tail was docked when I got him, but we kept his ears as floppy as ever. I don't even think boxers or any other breed really look attractive with their ears cropped. That's just my opinion though.

I got my dog at the pound (and I can see why he was there based on his behavior) but he already had his tail cropped and ears, the ears look really cute because they are really big but I would like him to have a tail. Does anyone know what they do with the old tails or if you can get them back? Do they freeze them for re-attachment in case people change their mind or do they just throw them away?

J,
As usual you are right. I also said the same thing about docking tails and ears. Some vets will not do it anymore, because of that reason, unnecessary pain. I was just wondering J what is your educational backround? You are always right on target.

Ha, rocki, you crack me up. Oh, and I obviously can't spell cartilage. Sorry guys.

Oh, thank you, C.C. I just have a bachelors degree and some graduate school. I didn't complete a masters. Nothing too impressive. It really does break my heart when I see dogs all bandaged up, knowing they had to suffer from healing wounds and having now idea why the hell they would be subjected to that. My poor dog freaks out from just having his toenails clipped, or having his tail, paws or ears touched for too long. You can tell they are so much more sensitive than we are physically in some ways. ESPECIALLY their ear and their tails seem ultra sensitive, and functional for balance and sensory perception I don't even totally understand.

Honestly, Rocki, it wouldn't surprise me if the parts don't end up in dog food, but that's pure speculation on my part. I definitely don't think they can be reattached!

Thanks Jenn, I guess I could always put an ad in the paper to see if anyone has seen it. J, that's pretty disgusting but I'm not really sure he wouldn't eat his own tail if it were lying around even without being mixed with dog food. The things he has gotten a hold of & eaten make me wonder how he is still alive.

Yes J there is a difference in Mean and cruel. As far as me resulting to personal insults wouldn't I have to know you personally in order for me to result to a "personal insult"?. I was just assuming your screen name "J" was short for something. It's not Jackass? I just assumed it was Jackass because you made a comment only a Jackass would make stating that I said "it's only animal cruelty if it's extreme" When I never even hinted towards that.
Being that you're the big shot with a whole Bachelors degree I'm sure you already know that cruelty can be described as indifference to suffering, and even positive pleasure in inflicting it. Sadism can also be related to this form of action or concept. Cruel ways of inflicting suffering may involve violence. I think dressing your animal up in stupid clothes is mean, carrying them around like a fasion accessory is mean, piercing their ears is mean. All of those are mean and do not constitute a cruelty to animals.
As far as the docking, being that I don't know what the process entails I'll hold off on making any statements on that. But being that my dog has his ears and tail it doesn't even apply to me.

This woman is so stupid. Not a moment's thought for the kitten's claws getting stuck on the stupid piercings and tearing either piercing or claw. Not a thought of how awful it must be for the poor things to constantly see something moving on their ears.

I hope she has to go to jail and won't be allowed to work with animals anymore.

PUT HER AWAY!!!!

Ryan: Or what ever your REAL name is...

I DON'T care if you believe me or not, I am a VET! How MANY insulting posts are you going to put up here? People are entitled to their views! If people don't agree with you, they are insulted...FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!!

YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE AND STOP TROLLING THIS SITE TO ARGUE WITH PEOPLE!!!

You seem to post to every story out here...you NEED to socialize and get OUT OF YOUR MOM'S BASEMENT! GET A LIFE AND YOU REALLY NEED TO GET LAID!

r/e your comment to me regarding Florida, YOU MUST LIVE IN THE SWAMP AND YOUR GIRLFRIEND MUST BE FAT, FUGLY DEEDEE MOORE! HA HA HA HA !!!

i do think the kittens look cute, but i do think it's a little much. and those barbells would get ripped out pretty easily. it'd probably be best to not do that.

i do think the kittens look cute, but i do think it's a little much. and those barbells would get ripped out pretty easily. it'd probably be best to not do that.

people who are this cruel will never learn. In her head she thinks she did nothing wrong.
Shame on you. You should be prevented from ANY contact with animals, let alone be a dog groomer
I'm worried about the kittens you have sold to those sick enough to want one like that. Piercing a kitten's back?
You sick bitch. Karma has a funny way of restoring natural balance, hon. You like goth? See how you like it when nature pays you back with what you deserve. It is unfortunate that laws in this country in pertaining to animal welfare are worth a dick. 3K max fine, that's it for the most part. CT is decent - there, animal cruelty is a fellony and it should be everywhere.

Ryan, aside from being juvenile and stupid, your insults aren't even funny. No one but you seems amused. If you had anything meaningful to say, you might redeem yourself. Unfortunately, you don't seem to ever.

It's not only cruel, I think it's SICK.

I told Ryan the exact same things on the Bullying story. Some students and I in a class we had, we were assigned a project to do. We used 5 different social settings, 3 months and over 200 pages of research that we found. We used TCR as one of the social environments and we were bad. We started arguments, name calling, I think Ryan had us beat.
Ryan read back on your post on this story, your comments here and on the other stories are an example of a bully. Again I will say Stop calling people names
J, Ryan is jealous of you. I have read your post and His. You express yourself intelligently without profanity, Ryan is not in that intellectual class

Maureen your not a vet but you would probably qualify to be treated by one. Maybe you should take your own advice

"People are entitled to their views! If people don't agree with you, they are insulted...FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!!"

seriously read what you posted here and just think about the irony, maybe Ryan is as entitled to his view as you are now please insult me with your razor sharp Veterinarian wit.

Yes,
Maureen is not a vet. No professional would reduce themselves to the content of that post.

Jenn,

Completely agree with you about the docking and cropping on dogs. I think it looks nasty. I have a chihuahua, a shih tzu, and a long-haired chiwennie (mix between a chihuahua and daschound) and all but my chihuahua has floppy ears. I love dogs to have big floppy ears! And docked tails? I don't like them. How can you really tell if they are wagging them? Its like a little stub! Is your dog a boxer? I love boxers with floppy ears! They look so much more cute than with cropped ears!

Can anyone tell me if yorkies have naturally short tails? My dad has a mini yorkie (possibly the cutest dog ever!!!!) and he has a short tail. I can't remember if there are breeds that have naturally short tails or not. Surely there are since some dogs naturally have pointy ears, but can't remember off the top of my head right now!

And again to people comparing this to babies gettin their ears peirced. Like I said before, I don't really agree with babies gettin their ears peirced. They are very prone to gettin ear infections and they pull at their ears so they could easily pull the ear rings out. But when they are older? Don't see the problem with that. From my experience, 3 or 4 is a good age to do it. My daughter and middle niece are the same age (4) and my oldest niece is 7. They all got their ears peirced on the same day about a year ago and my daughter and middle niece didn't even budge, while my oldest bawled for an hour! All of the girls in my family (about 30 girl cousins and about 50 second cousins) have gotten their ears peirced when they were "toddlers" and its no big deal. But yea babies, not a good idea!

And comparing it to boys gettin circumcised? Don't know what that's like! But its been done for how long? Yea I can see that its a little cruel to do it without any pain meds, but if I ever have a son (which I'm trying for!) I would have it done. All the baby boys I have ever been around seem fine!

While I agree with some that this is not something I would do. According to our socially acceptable treatment of animals this can't be considered cruelty unless there is proof this puts them in constant pain. We have accepted that it is OK for animal owners to have ears shaped, tails removed, barkers removed, etc. We have accepted these (they are done by vets) because they don't cause the animal constant pain and it is considered the owners right to have them performed. I hope laws change, but according to our current laws I think she should be released.

Yes, I have a boxer, with big floppy ears. I would have preferred him to keep his tail too, but I didn't have a horse in that race as it was taken care of before I ever saw him. I also have a husky that has big pointed ears which are natural for the breed. We rescued him last Summer. We work with an organization that fosters pets until they get adopted and right now we have on foster in addition to our other two dogs. I love pets, and I hate to see them mistreated, but I don't know that I agree that piercings could actually be considered abuse. At least not abuse that would warrant jail time. However, on the tail docking, I have seen some dogs who have had their tails injured from various things, so I understand some people's point on docking the tails for the safety of the dog. I just wouldn't personally choose to do it since I try my best to keep my pets (including their tails) safe and my pets are actual pets, they aren't working dogs.

Hahaha wow, Ya know this is pretty flattering, SOOOOO many postings directed at me, thank you all so so much, DEFINATELY an ego boost. Ok where to start. Maureen, Yes my real name IS Ryan Why on earth would I change my name on a blogging site? Want the full name? Ok Ryan Walker there ya go, is there something for me to be afraid of? Some reason to hide my identity? C.C. We've had a bit of a discussion on another posting where you also accused me of bullying etc and on that same posting/subject I asked you to point out where/how I bullied or name called.
Do I call people names on here? You bet your ass I do, because some people act the part, and obviously from the sound of it, 99% of you have VERY soft skin. I will say what I want and to whom I want. That is one of the many freedoms I fight for. This is a blogging site, if you are so butt hurt at what I said to you, if you can't handle someone actually unapologetically telling you the way it is, then go somewhere else! If you can take it then stick around. If someone makes a jackass remark I'm not going to sugar coat it, I'll call you out, that's my RIGHT. Now back to Maureen, not that I feel the need to explain my actions to you or anything, I'll humor you (all) Yes I do make a lot of postings on here, but only because lately I have found myself sitting behind a desk for my job when I'd normally be out and about......BOREDUM plain and simple, and until I go some place else, you are stuck with me and my blunt method of telling you like it is. I am HARDLY in my mom's basement hahaha but that's pretty damn funny. Since I'm being honest with you, how about you do the same "Vet" hahahahahahaha THAT is funny. Now if you'll excuse me I have another posting to move onto and someone else to "bully" soooooooooo many people that can't handle someone directing their disagreements and comments at them, awwwww don't worry I won't lose any sleep and you'll get over it C.C. and J.
I promise.

I'm sorry everyone I have to come clean (I'v ealso decided not to use random all caps words) I'm not a vet, I just said that because nobody in my normal day to day life takes me seriously, they act as though I don't exist because in fact my argument methods ARE pretty rediculous (oops sorry about the all caps word, it slipped). Anyway I figured if people actually think I'm a vet they'll take me more seriously, but I now see the error of my way and realize that in reality I am a complete and total douche. Alex you are right and I just want to take this time to apologize to all of you.

I wouldn't call it innocent but by the same token I'm not sure if it's overly cruel. I mean, no worse than many other behaviors we see today. People pierce their infant's ears for example or circumcision which are both culturally based.

That being said it seems pretty crass to commercialize them in such a fashion. It reminds me of those days when they'd dye chicks various colours and put them in their store windows for Easter.

I wonder, is it cruel to breed animals to get particular traits since they have no choice in the matter? The whole area of animal husbandry is not up to the animal after all. That would include cats with no tails or dogs with spots for example.

Someone should put a "submission ring" on some of these commenters' necks... jeez...

Anyway, yes, this is definitely animal cruelty, and although I don't always agree with their methods, PETA gets kudos for ratting this woman out.

This women is crazy, the best place for her is in jail NOW

I didn't read all the comments. Only about half of them.
I think what this woman has done to these kittens is very stupid and probably not good for the kittens in any way! I'm glad PETA has gotten involved with this case. This behaviour can't be tolerated.
I do not think this woman should be locked up though. It takes about $20,000 to keep someone locked up for a year in the US. I don't think the people in Pennsylvania want to spend $20,000 (or more) on this woman in that manner. I think she should get a boatload of community service thrown at her and a very large fine to boot. Make her do that community service wherever it is needed. Be it in the local animal shelter or the local homeless shelter.
I do not think she intentionally hurt these kittens, though I wonder where her mind was when she came up with this hairbrained idea to pierce kittens. She needs some physciatric counseling. Something not right in her brain!
I also think that any money she made from the sale of an altered kitten should be given to the local animal shelter as she shouldn't be allowed to profit from this nonsense!
Kittens shouldn't wear jewelry! Plain and simple, they shouldn't!

Oh my god, how many times can people continue to compare this to piercing a baby's ears and circumcision. We get it that you don't see a difference. Maybe first reference that those have already been addressed and acknowledged as possible things to be concerned with, before reverting the same opinion again without elaboration or adding anything new? But there have been several valid points made regarding the difference between cat's ears and human ears that have outweighed your repeating the same thing you ignore.

Ryan:

The last "Maureen" post YOU put up was/is really childish. I can't put up posts to myself. Your very transparent. You posted word for word what Leigh said earlier,when Leigh was the first one to post the correct information. You know nothing regarding microchipping. Your so original!

You did NOT hurt my feelings at all. I find you very unhappy, combative and annoying. I don't know you or care to!

J. is very intelligent and well-spoken. You are very ENVIOUS of J!

I don't think this is technically "cruel", however, i do think she should be made to take the earrings out.
Maybe put some lighter ones in. They're dragging her ears down. It's pretty cute though. A creative idea.

Ryan,
I will agree with you that we all have the right to Freedom Of speech and a God given right to express it. You are entitle to your opinion as everyone else. I have mentioned it before in regards to some classes I am taking, I will not bore you with the details. But the bottom line is that we are all social humans, therefore we most comply and respect one another. Being human beings, naturally we have a tendency to become defensive and negative. Ryan, If you don't want to tone down your responses to other people, so be it. There is a difference between being mean, and rude and a difference of opinions.

J,

I completely agree! I am so tired of people comparing this to babies gettin earrings and baby boys being circumcised! Its very annoying! If one more person makes that comment, I might just scream! Compare it to microchipping or tagging cattles ears or tattoos. But please! Its not the same as babies with earrings or circumcision!

Jenn,

Now I'm really jealous of you! A boxer while floppy ears and a husky?!?! Oh, I love them both! Lol I love my dogs and cats but I have always wanted a husky! And a boxer with floppy ears is just adorable!

Man, that is one kool kat!

Send this woman to jail right away !

Why is this even a question? This lady is a sick dumb bitch. I would like to beat the shit out of anyone who thinks that animals don't have feelings. This is FUCKING disgusting. What is wrong with people????

I would have to agree w/ community service @ animal shelter.. No point in jail time. shes just a thoughtless idiot...

Well....there are a lot of opinions and some are really out there. But...maybe a look into how this could (if at all) adversely affect the animal. Explain it to this knucklehead and I'd be willing to bet that she doesn't do it again. Is there an ill intent by this misguided person? Probably not. She's a dog groomer by trade. So where's the culpability? PETA is and always has been a radical organization, in my opinion, so them saying anything doesn't bring merit to this topic. Use some common sense folks.

Wow... a cat will never be used to having these unnatural weights on their bods. I can see them always trying to remove them. Scratching, biting etc. If done as an itty bitty kitten they MAY leave them alone... but it's still fraking cruel - another lamer lookin' to make a quick buck on the 'net.This time not only infinging on our rights/time but a harmless critter too.

It's cruel to pierce a kitty? But it is ok to cut doberman's ears or tails or but a pitts tail too? The piercings are just a little piercing not actually mutilating it but cutting part of it off...

Alex: (could this be Ryan using another name?)

You are RIGHT! I NEVER should of used the profanity while I was responding to ANOTHER one of Ryan's combative posts to me. I really am a vet. You can choose to believe me or not...that is your choice. I was NOT referring to microchipping.

I am VERY sorry if I offended you or anyone else! (except Ryan). Please know, animal medicine these days is mostly regarding ABUSE from humans! I will NEVER understand WHY some people PROJECT their unhappiness upon a helpless animal!
If they are unhappy in their lives, FIX IT! ALL animals are very LOVING...that is why god created them. They love you UNCONDITIONALLY...FOREVER!!! Please, DON'T abuse them. It's NOT their fault your having a CRAPPY day.
There are MANY agencies that will assist you with food, medicine and the like because of the economy.

Please, DON'T be embarrassed if you need assistance with food, etc. The BEST is in New York but, EVERY city has one.
It's NOT our fault that the economy is in the state that it is...let alone the "PETS" fault.

There are MANY services out there to assist you with your pet. PLEASE, utilize them. DON'T neglect your pet! They ONLY have YOU in this world! Have a great day.

Rocki:

May I re-direct my apology to Alex to YOU? You are RIGHT! I never should of used the profanity in my response to Ryan's CONSTANT posts to me. I am VERY sorry if this offended you.

I AM A VET and you can believe me or not, that is your choice.

Seemingly, there tends to be alot of H.S. kids posting out here when, they should be attending to their "school work"? Maybe this is why the nations S.A.T. scores are so LOW? Youth should be attending class, etc. INSTEAD of being out harassing ADULTS and their opinions!

You are certainly ENTITLED to your opinions...AS I AM MINE!
You should NOT be out here during SCHOOL TIME...maybe, this is WHY your grades are so LOW?

Maureen,
Don't worry about Rocki, she's a lil bitchy sometimes when you don't agree with her opinions!!! :-) Hi Rocki

Cats, like dogs and other animals, need their ears unteathered to hone in accordingling of their surroundings - thus safety. This act takes that away, thus is unsafe for said animal.

There needs to be something done so that she is UNABLE to have another pet OF ANY KIND. Neighbors need to be notified, petstores, whatever. I know it sounds odd, but Lord save us and our animals from the cruel blood that runs thru this woman's veins. Please stop her!

I agree Terri above, this person should never be put in charge of the welfare of another living thing, animal or human, as far as I'm concerned. Mutilating animals to increase their profit margin should be discouraged by her punishment.

Maureen, I did not post anything using your name, and I do not post anything under anyone elses name but my own, what would be the point seriously?

Maureen is not a vet. those of you who are vets should definately take that as an offense, all the school and hard work you've gone through, I know I would. And since you keep insisting you are a vet Maureen, humor us, what state? Because I'd like to know what state lets kids become vets.

Body peircing is voluntary. If you hold someone down and stick em with needles for fun, and they don't consent, it's assault.

On the other hand, look at what we do to chickens. We shoot at wild animals. it's probably not illegal. I might try to liberate her animals personally, if i was there, but that's what's wrong with the world today; everyone goes to the cops.

I am a veterinary technician and the more comments I read, the more it pisses me off. This is so barbaric I don't even know what to say. It's appalling to think that someone would actually do something like that. I, myself, have a few piercings, but on my own accord, whereas animals cannot make such decisions. I thought it was bad that the AKC required ear cropping and tail docking to conform to its purely cosmetic standards, but this is a whole new level of atrocity. I am not a hypocrite because I do not agree with ear cropping, tail docking, or animal research, and I don't have any children so that doesn't even matter. This is not JUST a matter of the pain, lack of consent, possible infection, possible tearing, and inability for the animal to understand it, but also the fact that a cat's ears are more crucial to its evolution than that of a human's. Ears and tails are both very important in cats for non-verbal communication and for balance.

Another thought...Piercers have to have a license to pierce humans, and require at least some knowledge of the body so as to reduce any complications...So without having any experience in such a field, who is to say she even knows what she's doing in that aspect? Who is to say she wouldn't accidentally pierce a nerve and cause permanent damage? I'm not sure to what extent she should be punished, but it is definitely animal cruelty.

http://cats.about.com/od/felineanatomy/ig/FormandFunction/CATEars.htm

This idiot deserves time for sure. I just wanna know why she's looking at 18 months in prison, and Brian del Pino kills his girlfriend's baby, 1 yr. old Cameron Andrews and gets that same amount of time. Our justice system isn't working anymore.

Ok so the intent here may nothave been cruel but the pain for the kitten probably was and further more she isn't a vet, cats ears have different veigns and nerve endings in which she knows NOTHING about plain and simple she should'nt do it. cruely intended or not its just dumb. Humans casting vanity onto animals.

Anyone who has the gull to say this is comparable to having infants and toddles under go piercings is obviously not very keen on detail.

Last time I checked a baby and a toddler still have the same anatomical traits as a human...unlike a kitten. (So maybe it's time to change your infants diet if catfood and check the anatomy charts.)

This woman is getting very LIGHT charges. If you cant tell that the skin on a cats ear is much more thin and delicate then that on a human
ought to get the sensory perceptive checked out..

Obviously this woman has a mental dysfunction. She found a helpless pathetic animal on the street and decided that it would be a wonderful idea to stick needles into it's ears and throat!

Who better to receive a NECK piercing -which most humans don't normally request- Than an infantile feline half the size of a Big Mac!

Anybody who shows any disagreement towards this sociopathic display is simply making nothing more then noise.

OK... First of all... earrings are one..if the bitch wants to give her cute kitten earrings.. whatev... (an no.. doing the same to babies is not considered CRUEL... ) but, what gets me is the NECK! Com'on PPL.. for AGES, ppl have dealt with earrings and yes it is very little pain and heal rather quickly, thou I can sympathize with a kitten cause most animals have fleas and kittens often itch...She really shouldn't have pierced the neck...that I consider out right ... well hell.. IDK... But jail time should be outta the question.. fines and having her ability to have animals would suit me just fine.. who knows.. she might start piercing her neighbors babies and selling them on the net next.. So, maybe jail is good for her...

Its great that she got convicted, but one year to 18 months doesn't seem a long time to me since I think if those cats had way more pain then us they should be trialed almost as humans because who are we to say its better on a cat then on us.

I still say jail is not appropriate here. This woman seems more ignorant and irresponsible than malevolent. Jail would only turn her into a hardened criminal. If I were the judge, she'd get 400 hours of community service working at an animal shelter or veterinarian's office.

agreed!

Ryan and Maureen are BOTH 9yes I used caps) D-bags

About the earrings in babies, My mom had mine pierced when I was 1 or 2. I hated it. It hurt badly and to me it did feel cruel.

The ears of a child or human do not have the same vascular supply and innervation as a cats does. Cat ears are highly vascularized and very sensitive. They use small muscles to move and twitch these ears, and having any sort of weight on the tips would be very painful. It would pull on these delicate muscles and be very uncomfortable.

This lady was not a veterinarian and essentially preformed surgical procedures on her cat. Is it cruel for a baby to be circumcised by a medical doctor? Maybe. Is it cruel for a parent to circumcise their own child in the kitchen sink with a pocket knife? Absolutely.

The cats had infections. If any of you have ever suffered an infection, than you know that even the smallest of wounds can be horribly painful when infected. I hope this person goes to jail.

Also, one last point. I am a veterinary student, and I can attest that no veterinarian would behave as Maureen does. In fact, I find her post to be mildly amusing...thanks Ryan for calling her out.

To my knowledge, tail amputation of a companion animal requires general anesthesia. Tail docking of livestock is a different story. That is usually done with the animal awake [quickly] for reasons I don't really feel like getting into. And yes, there are lots of ethical dilemmas, even with that. Its best not to compare ruminants and poultry to our companion animals. Those two fields of veterinary medicine are growing further and further apart...

The point is, it is illegal to preform surgical procedures on your pet without a veterinary license. Usually the consequence of breaking the law is jail. Its kinda the basis for our whole legal system, so I think sending her to jail is completely warranted.

Holly Crawford is a dumb woman.

Piercing animals for your own gain is ridiculous.

How uneducated and cruel can you be?
I just recently looked up why my cat follows me everywhere and grooms me only to find out that she basically loves me and thinks I'm her family. Oh, also cats don't play bite and scratch to be mean, its a way to play with other cats, unfortunatly their human cats have a lot thinner skin.
But that's not the point. In doing that little bit of research I also found out how sensitive her nerves are on and around her ears. Although the outer layer of skin is not as sensitive as ours the inner layers have so many more nerve endings!
ANYWAY! SHAME ON YOU!
By the way, jail is not going to turn a delusional woman into a hardened criminal. Prison might, but not jail. And, quite frankly I doubt that short time in prison wouldn't be good for her. I imagine there are a ton of animal lovers there willing to give her a hard time. And, I agree community service in an animal setting would be ideal, especially if its supervised.