Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz, Religious Nuts, Beat Daughter, 7, to Death for Mispronouncing Word

This story really turns my stomach. It's too bad they're only facing life in prison. Torturing and killing a child, or children, should be automatic grounds for the death penalty.

Oh, they'll get theirs in the joint. The California prison-yard punishment system is pretty efficient...and Kevin has a pretty mouth.

This is one of those cases where I wish we could occasionally reenact 500-year-old laws that provided that the punishment mirror the crime. These two psychopathic, soulless, sadistic, religion-spewing wastes of flesh and bones should not be allowed to share our air. They should be chained to a tree and beaten and tortured to death with the same plastic tube they used to kill that child. With any luck, it would take weeks

www.nogreaterjoy.org

Wow, I don't think I've ever heard of Michael Pearl and his "church". I went to their website, and his wife has written several articles that talk about beating your children. How effed up is that? They should have to stand trial right along with these misguided parents in the murder and pain caused to their kids.

The really messed up part about all this, is these people, I am sure, thought they were doing good works by adopting these kids and home schooling them, etc. When in reality, they had no business having children at all if the only way they know to motivate is by beating.

I am disgusted-I agree with tblvinnie08-

they should beat them with a hose for hours, and he does have a pretty mouth doesn't he,someone alert big bubba he coming!

Always some other name like relegion or "for thier own good " as an excuse to beat children. Not just thier own but one's they adopted from piss poor conditions. Yet I bet they think they are doing some great deed. How sad there are hundreds of good decent homes to place a child that are on outrageous waiting lists who would never harm a child and the state's keep giving them back to the wolves! In this case in sheeps clothing.

does anyone know if one could send her balloons and girly thing, we could address simply "angel" i thin this would show this poor child that there is real love in the world, and maby it would lift her spirit

I am hearing Outer Limits theme music. WOW (at above posted comment.

Once again I'd like to point out the hypocrisy in wanting to torture someone for torturing someone.

I'm all for the death penalty but this gratuitous violence serves no purpose.

Religion is all well and good, until it says that doing bad things in its name is good.

Even in the Bible, the story of Abraham being told to kill Isaac is not read by many scholars as a literal commandment to do something evil because "God tells you". What you do is your responsibility, regardless of what person or deity gives you the okay.

This is truly a sick guy. I know that he will get the best punishment where he is headed. We should send photos of the child every day to this bastard. I for one would love to take a taser and use it on him. But the wife was involved she will get hers also.

Yay, ridiculous knee-jerk reactions!

Imprison them by all means, but clamouring for the death penalty just because you are angry is short-sighted and foolish.

Learn to think, not react.

Torture and murder are wrong, period. You losers come here just to get your blood lust up? You may not be as bad as the losers who committed these horrible crimes, but most of you seem to want to do the same to them. End the cycle of violence (and the death penalty) now!

That is very unfortunate.

-1 for religion

I'm sorry, I'm all for religious freedom and all and I am a firm supporter of our bill of rights, but there are some things where we just need to use our fucking brains. I mean some of these evangelist groups are brain washing people like literally. If we can see those things, it should be grounds enough, "probably cause" and "bad tendency" are shakey grounds for a lot of things but when it is fucking crazy religions that promote these things than I say fuck the first amendment put them all in jail because government is about humanity before it is about freedom or liberty.

Religous or otherwsie. You don't beat kids, because somebody will beat you worse!!

Religious nut cases who preach this type of abuse should be held accountable and punished; be it Christian derived like Michael Pearl advocating child abuse, or Islamic figure heads who prey on the weak to commit suicide killings.

Child beaters/rapers get their justice in prison. Its no joke. I've seen it. Everything you've ever seen or heard about child molesters and killers getting roughed up in prison is TRUE. Only its far far worse than you could really imagine. Fear not my friends, they are living in a world of hell inside those walls. Been there. Seen it. Glad they are getting whats coming to them.

Chalk another pointless death up to 'loving' christianity. When will we learn?

please if there is a god, take these two miserable fuckers out.

Reading articles like this and then reading the responses to them kill me. This was a horrible, deeply saddening and disgusting abuse. In no way were they disciplining their child according to the Bible. However, the answer is not to stop disciplining our children. The answer is to actually read the Bible and see what it really says. Not just pick a few verses out, make a sarcastic remark, and disregard the whole thing.

In the long run though, I think that our society's reaction to horrific cases like this are worse than the actual cases. We are raising a generation of kids that do not respect authority because they never had any authority figures in their lives. They never had someone whose yes meant yes, and no meant no. They never had any real consequences for their actions because their parents are afraid to look at them the wrong way or the police will lock them up for child abuse. Children services agencies have stopped pursuing real abusers like these, and they are just punishing every parent that swats their kid on the bottom.

No one should ever be allowed to abuse a child. Murders deserve prison. Parents must discipline their children. These statements do not contradict themselves.

See what religion does to people?

"In no way were they disciplining their child according to the Bible."

Only because they didn't go as far as the Bible recommends and stone them to death.

Um, Ferg, that's not why you don't beat kids.

Ferg said:

Religous or otherwsie. You don't beat kids, because somebody will beat you worse!!

@Ray Hollister: The answer is to actually read the Bible and see what it really says.

No, no it's not. You don't need an old book to understand your kids need discipline. You don't need to muddle through language from 2,000 year-old tales -- trying to puzzle out what means what, and what's been mistranscribed, and what's been intentionally changed to suit some Pope's political agenda -- to know how to raise your kids.

Don't hurt your kids. Raise them to be good people. Think for yourself and put the bible down.

Get it?

There is such a danger in turning over your decisions and judgment completely to any religion. Some preachers claim to "just teach the Bible," but the problem is the bible is a deeply complicated book that must be carefully interpreted. Too many clergy and others in positions of spiritual-responsibility are under the delusion that there are easy truths to be had and applied in the Bible, which simply isn't true.

This is a tragic case of two people who surrendered their judgment to the cruel Biblical interpretation of a wretchedly deceived man. I hope this draws enough negative press to squeeze that place's doors closed. And I hope the organization's more reasonable (this is relative, mind you) members will realize that all we have, ultimately, is our conscience and our reason, which must be trusted even when dealing in religious "truths."

Torture + death penalty. I wonder what their maker will say.

@mcr Do not worry, in prison killing a child / child rape is the worst crime imaginable. They will likely not last long in prison.

Chris -- Couldn't have said it better myself!

this was on my local news! it was just north of chico ca i believe paradise

This just sickens me. I am religious but this is just crazy! I have never been taught to beat my child by any preacher so I just can't imagine why anyone would teach that. There is a big difference in beating a child and disciplining a child and these "people" took it way to far. Poor babies.

@ Langdon: Please do us all a favor and actually get your facts about Christianity straight before claiming that the bible advocates stoning a child to death for minor infractions. First of all the only crime that the bible calls for stoning as a punishment for us sexual promiscuity. Secondly that is only in the OLD testament. The NEW testament does not in any way list any kind of corporal punishment because it says Jesus has taken all of our sins upon himself thus washing us all clean in the sight of his father so long as we repent and ask forgiveness. I will therefore thank you to please stop spouting half facts and inacuracies about a faith you clearly know very little about!

Aditionally I want it known that I do not in any way condone beating a human being under the guise of religeous instruction no matter what the religeon. A person who has it in them to beat a child to death should be removed from the gene pool on a permanent basis (lifetime incarceration at the minimum or death if it is necessary)

@ Darby: "Religeon" doesn't do this to people, PEOPLE do this to people. Mostly it is the refusal of people to think for themselves that is to blame. Any human being with a shred of decency and an ounce of common sense would have known better....there is no excuse or rational for what this couple did to that little girl.

Wow, I send you guys the bible, my son Jesus, and give you guys free will. And this what you idiots do? What the hell was I thinking when i shitted you guys out of my asshole. Next time I'm flushing. -.-

This is why religion needs to be left behind as us humans progress to a more civil way of life.

If you want to talk about how religion affects society and stuff like this, please email me

alexedwardsiscool@yahoo.com

JohnB,

And what about all the people who kill, rape, molest, or harm others not in the name of religion but simply because they are messed up in the head? Don't lump all of us that are religious in the same group. Not all of us are nuts like these people. If religion isn't your cup of tea, that's your choice. But don't assume that we are all like these people. I would never beat my child because a religion told me to.

What pisses me off even more than those criminals are the people who comment by saying violence against such murderers doesn't solve anything and that they should be fixed instead of being killed. Well, crimes like these happened because people like you want the capital punishment canceled! By killing every murderer we actually erradicate violence and not start a cycle! Oh man they want us to take people like those nut cases and pat them on the shoulder and tell them what they did was wrong and not to do it again and then give them wellfare!!!!!

Fedup -- Actually, Langdon has a point. He was just using stoning as an example, but the point he's trying to make is that there are things in the Bible that are misinterpreted and used to harm society. That's where these psycho churches come from, like the one involved here and the Westboro Baptist Church -- both claiming they know what the Bible really means. It's all a bunch of b.s. in the end.

Religion (please learn how to spell that word) is used to force weak-minded people to live their lives according to someone else's definition of morality. Anyone can start a church and say "Well, this is what they were REALLY talking about in the Bible, and only if you listen to me will you get into Heaven." Look at the Westboro Baptist Church, the one actual Baptists want nothing to do with. They're a prime example of another church with an insane point-of-view that does more harm than good.

And it's my personal opinion that anyone with a "shred of common sense" wouldn't live their life according to what any book says and wouldn't even consider the Bible anything other than a fictional novel.

@ Fedup
So we don't need the ten commandments? They are in the old testament, as well.
I hate people falling back to that ridiculous stance between new and old testament. It is always said as a double standard to hide the horrible rules and keep the ones that are semi-sane.

Even if they aren't supposed to be using the old testament to justify beating children, most churches will cite the old testament when one asks if it's okay. In fact, old testament rules seem to be cited quite frequently in christian churches and websites.

People start to believe in this stuff so much that it is detrimental to society. We are reaching that point in America, there is just no other way to look at it.

Well. If they so strongly believe in their religious ways, maybe an eye for and eye is the way to go. Torture and beat them until they can no longer scream from the pain. Sick! All I can say.

"lawless African shithole"
Pete you have away with words...!

this is fucking sick. these parents should be painfully tortured and skinned for days on end with no food or water

Of all the news stories I have heard over the past year, the boys setting their friend on fire over a videogame, the boyfriend who helped his girlfriend kill her mom, this is far and away the most disturbing. FAR and away. I'm not usually an advocate for the death penalty, but if I ever thought someone deserved to die, it would be these people, just so long as it wasn't a quick and painless death. I guess life in prison is the closest thing the legal system could do to putting them through the sort of agony they deserve, but they deserve to be beaten mercilessly the same way they tortured that poor girl (and worse). I hope someone lets the other inmates know what they did so they spend the rest of their lives being beaten and raped.

@ MCR: I apologise for my poor spelling. I have problems with spelling due to being dyslexic. I suppose I could use a spell checker, but frankly I couldn't be bothered since most people subconsciously correct the word and focus on what I was trying to say instead of the spelling of a word.

With that dealt with I can now address what you said. I agree that things in the bible have been misinterpreted and used to harm society. I agree that churches each have their own view or opinion of what the bible actually meant. I apologise if I misunderstood the intent of what Langdon was saying. When you say "It's all a bunch of b.s. in the end" do you mean the bible in general, the church and its many offshoots or the whole idea of a God altogether? In conclusion to you, I would like to point out that I consider myself to have more than a "shred of common sense" and I base my life on the bible as I have found no other book to remain true in its teachings for over two thousand years.

@ JohnB: If you read the new testament properly, you will see where it says that we are given a new commandment, that being to love one another as God has loved us. We are further told to love the lord our God as we love ourselves. If you then apply a little logic to the matter, you will see that if you love yourself you will not break any of the ten commandments where you are concerned, thus in loving your neighbor as you love yourself you will not break any of the ten commandments where they are concerned either. In short the ten commandments are the legal description in the old testament of what love of your neighbors should be in the new testament. Or at least that is the way I have always understood it. To my way of understanding it, the old testament was for when we lived under the law of God, while the new testament is for christians living under the spirit of God as new creations freed from the law of Moses by the blood of the lamb. I do accept that I could be wrong on this so please don't attack me personally for my opinion, it is after all just an opinion.

I think that churches today need to make a distinction between discipline and abuse. They need to teach people what counts as going too far (for example leaving marks, breaking bones, starvation etc all count as going too far while three to six moderate strikes with a suitable instrument of discipline is not going too far - just my opinion).

Sorry again to the spelling and grammar teachers present here for a post which is sure to contain more errors :P

This is what happens when you try to push your religion on others. Even your own children. Religion has no place outside of your heart, anything more is simply being an asshole.

Ah yes. The same people calling these murderers "religious nuts" will be the ones defending a woman's "right" to murder her unborn baby on another thread. It never ceases to amaze me how one child's murder means the perps deserve being "painfully tortured and skinned for days on end with no food or water" but ripping an unborn child from the womb and slaughtering it is a choice protected by law.

I'll get flamed for sure but I don't care. Any objective folks here reading this should witness an actual abortion (it's 2010...you can find it online) and tell me how THAT should be protected.

No straw men arguments here if we're being serious. What these people did and what an abortionist does ends with the same result. Period. An innocent child's life is snuffed out.

The Real American,

So I shouldn't have my daughter go to church or learn about God and Jesus or any of the things I learned as a child? You teach your children what you want them to learn, and I will teach my daughter what I feel she should learn. I would much rather her believe in something, than nothing.

As far as the second part of your post, I'm not even sure what to say. "Religion has no place outside your heart, anything more is simply being an a$$hole." Do you mean people who are religious shouldn't force it onto others? Cause if that's what your saying, the same goes for non-religious people trying to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on others.

FedUp,

A lot of what you are saying I find to be true. A lot of different religions will pick and choose what they believe to be correct and how we should live our daily lives. And that is very evident from this story. I do not think its right or fair to group all religion as a whole. I have been to many churches, mainly trying to find the one I feel comfortable at, but I have never been taught to beat my child. Actually, the complete opposite in most churches. I have been taught to love my child and only use discipline (i.e. Spankings, time-outs, etc.) when it is neccesary.

Attack me if you want to on my religious beliefs, but I won't budge. I would rather spend my life believing in something than nothing. It is that belief that has pulled me out of my darkest times (mcr may remember what I'm talking about) and it is that belief that keeps me moving on every day. Just because there are some fanaticals, doesn't mean we are all like this. That would be like saying all catholic priests are pedophiles, something I don't believe. True, there are some. But not all of them are. Or like saying all atheist are immoral. Not true, I have known some (my biological father being one of them) that have the same morals as I do, they just don't believe in God as I do. So don't lump me with these freaks. I think they are just as bad as you do.

Jason,
How old were you when you got your menstrual cycle? How many pregnancies have you had? How many live births have you had? How many vaginal births or C-Sections have you had? How many abortions have you had? If you can't answer yes to any of these questions you know nothing about what a women knows or goes through with her own body. Until such times as you can give birth and have your own baby you have nothing to say of any importance about what we as women can do with our bodies. You can debate that any way you want to.

What a pair of sick fucks. They should do extensive therapy, and probably go to jail forever.

Hopefully someone will beat the shit out of her and she suffers a slow agonizing death...NO sympathy!

dui, Ever notice that MEN are the ones leading the anti abortion garbage? Prime example, Operation Rescue and it's founder, douche bag, Randell Terry...

These are not civilized human beings, they are beastly savages. Although I don't believe in becoming a beastly savage in order to exact some irrational revenge on them, thought ought to, in the least, be severely restricted in contact with other human beings - with any other kind of life for that matter - until their attitudes change. As long as they oppose the principles of "civilization", they will have no contact with other forms of life - human or otherwise. Of course, if they insist on living as savages, perhaps they ought to be loosed naked in the Amazonian jungles to see if their "god" selects them for survival ... or for food.

Christianity --- slaughtering and torturing millions of innocents to death for two millenia.

Time to declare Christianity the terrorist organization that it is and outlaw it altogether. Why is Michael Pearl's church still open and functioning ..? It's pretty clear that he is the motivating accomplice to murder and torture.

Why isn't Michael Pearl sitting in a jail cell?

*Scoff* Religion.

Sorry, Fedup; logic fail. The "three to six moderate strokes" that you reckon is "justifiable" – what happens when they don't work? You do get stubborn kids – can you keep increasing the severity of the beating, but stay within the "justifiable" limits? Of course not – once you've decided you have the right to hit a child, you have left yourself nowhere else to go – if his spirit proves too strong to be broken, you'd better be prepared to beat him to death.
And if you do beat him until he submits, what has he learnt? That force is the best way to get others around to your way of thinking? Non-violence is not a value you can beat into children; that's obvious on its face.
Or if beating doesn't work, should you switch to other measures, like depriving freedoms, suspending privileges, etc? In that case, why not try those methods *before* resorting to beatings?

March is Police Brutality Appreciation Month

Let the police know you appreciate their hard work by honking loudly, whenever you drive by a police station or police man on the side of the road. The police like knowing the public is aware of them.

They especially like it when they don't know who is honking at them; it becomes a fun guessing game! Try to honk only when you're in a group of cars, or when you've just passed around a corner.

I don't understand how anyone could use God as a reason for cruelty.God is love and you are supposed to love others as you love yourself.Jesus said that if anyone harms a child better that he were never born (than the punishment he will face).If these people had a relationship with Christ instead of RELIGION they would never have been doing this.What a sad and sickening story.I feel so sorry for those children.

This is disgusting, but I would hardly call Liberia a lawless shithole. This is what happens when fundamentalist Christian adoption agencies are allowed free reign in taking children from third world countries, regardless of whether or not they are orphans, under the guise that any Christian home is better than the 'godless' country they come from.

i'm going to put this out there, and am sure i will hear loud protests...

i think we don't whip our kids enough anymore. back in the 60's when it was still a preferred method of punishment, we didn't have the criminal element that is present in today's more lax society. i'm not talking about beating a kid to the point it physically hurts them, i'm talking about the smack on the ass that i often got and always deserved as a kid. i don't find anything wrong with it. time out doesn't seem to work at all, at least not in my family. if a child contemplates doing something wrong, and possible punishment that may ensue if they get caught...which is the larger deterrent? time out or a whoopin'? i'm just sayin...

at one of the articles i read at the site of the pearls', the wife wrote that if her child spilled food in the car because the child forgot to seal the zip lock bag up when they were finished, she beat them. that is just insanity! you can't go beating kids for spilling milk or any other damn thing! shit happens! its no reason for a beating. you just take a deep breath, maybe have the kid pick up all the cherios out of the car, but you don't beat them, and you certainly don't encourage your congregation to do so! this church needs to be put in check in some way on their doctrine.

@ DUI....

You talk so eloquently about YOUR "body".........
your menstrual cycle, your vagina, your c-section deformed body, etc....

What about the body of the child that is ripped out from your uterus in pieces and flushed down a drain?

You think that giving a child a spanking is the same as beating them until the blood flows? Until they pass out and die?

People can be crazy. People go kill other people because they don't believe in a god. People who believe in a god go kill other people. You can take any ideology, personal belief, anything, and use it to fuel some insane action.

Actually the death sentence is a pretty soft punishment for what they did. They deserve to live onto their 90s in the worst possible conditions and the worst health state imaginable. Maybe blind or something like that.

Paradise Ca is hardly a "remote area" outside of Sacramento. Not only is it 1.5 hrs away, it's a town of 30,000 people. The writer of this story did get some of the basic facts right, (this is a terrible tragedy led by two sick people) but he is otherwise sensationalizing this story. This case is in the earliest stages of being in court. Many of the facts still need to be confirmed or determined. Be careful what you read on the net.

Thank you for bringing this story to light, but please be responsible. Pearl never has advocated "beating" children. Spanking is not beating. He's got some "out there" beliefs, but they don't include child abuse. Read what he has to say before spewing prejudiced nonsense. But hey, anything to get people to read your rag right?

Here is the local story written by a more actual journalist:

http://www.paradisepost.com/ci_14361157?source=rss_viewed

Here is a great article about one of these nut jobs beating their 2 year old...
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/february/01/butterflies-and-backdoors/

I think it is a pathetic show to beat your 2 year old with a belt. There is no reason to take a weapon to a 2 year old soul. God would not want that. Is that the way Jesus taught his followers? By beating them profusely with a belt to ensure they 'followed' his every command? This ridiculous and you should stand trial for child abuse. Learn to be a 6'4'' 'man' and not beat a 2 year old with a belt for 'defying' you....I am glad you are not my parents!

YEAAHHH GOD! Again, god is just another excuse to murder.

No one should be surprised, this is what happens when you don't think for yourself. Which is exactly the way most religious people live.

Fucking GOOD, I hope they both get their asses shit pounded in prison. Religion is becoming a breeding ground for stupidity, and they wonder why smarter people are turning away from it.

The problem is not spanking a child. The problem is beating a child. I am not advocating spanking either but some child respond to spanking and others do not. It all depends on the temperament of the child. Parenting takes time and understanding of the children we have. We must realize we set the examples for our children and the environment we provide is what helps our children become who they are.

Thanks for the link, Cole.

http://www.paradisepost.com/ci_14427370?source=rss_viewed

This is another article at that same site that tells within it that the Not-so-right Reverened and his wife have been in trouble before for a North Carolina couple that beat two of their kids, one resulting in death, due to the Pearls teachings.

Once may be a fluke...twice, two children DEAD, and it is a crime! They need to hold these religious nut jobs accountable for spreading the "word" that you should beat your children into submission.

Oops, I read your link too Cole, but was referring in above post to the link that admode provided! Thanks to both of you.

Wow- This happened in Paradise, Ca. I live there- I had no idea it was getting this kind of attention. Awful story, isn't it?

No one should ever raise a fist to a child. And as for following the bible its out dated, sexist, and prejudice that is no way to raise a family. But i guess its better than following this mike pearl nut, look at where it got them.

To those of you defending Pearl, especially those who think he does not advocate beatings, start with pages 34-36 of his book, No Greater Joy, where he praises a woman who "spanks" her eleven month old baby with a switch of some kind, for not eating all of her food, and even advocates doing this to babies as young as six months. When you are hitting a 6 month old with a weapon of any kind, that is a beating. Especially over something like that, when they are not even old enough to really understand why they are being beaten.

As bad as people in prison can be, one thing that is very common across the prison population is an extreme reaction to people who harm children in any way. A lot of the prisoners attribute the way they are to childhood trauma of some kind, and really take every chance they can to make life hell for anyone in there for child abuse. These people will get theirs, and one can only hope Pearl ends up meeting some of these prisoners some day too.

Not because I'm seeking vengeance or anything like that. Simply because something has to stop him. This is not the first child to die at the hands of some of his followers, just do a Google search ti find that out. And it won't be the last, I'm sure. Even if he isn't some kind of nutcase, how many children have to die before he says to himself, "People must be taking my teachings the wrong way. I need to change this, or stop, so that no one else dies."

They should be beat as the same way as they did to their children so that they know the pain of the beating that they inflicted on their children. It is so disturbing that such stupid and violent people live in this world. How can people accept a religion that promotes violence. They continue to do violent acts without questioning it...

Jason -- There is NOTHING in this story about abortion. So don't even go there. Tell ya what...we'll make abortion illegal and you can adopt all the unwanted children, okay? I think that sounds like a good plan. What about you, dui?

The fact is, your faith should not be the death of anyone. How is this any different from the parents who use prayer instead of taking their sick and dying children to the doctor? One of those cases just happened right outside my city. The problem is they're using faith as their ENTIRE LIFE. You can have faith as something to supplement your life; to get you through the day, but there's no reason anyone should be taking it to this extreme. We live in a free country, people can believe whatever they want without prosecution, which is great...but then we have these people who take it too far and now what? We just wait for more kids to die before we can put these people behind bars. As far as I'm concerned, these extremist churches need to be raided like they would any other cult performing illegal activity.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/01/crimesider/entry6162918.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/03/crimesider/entry5206140.shtml

This is a prime example of insane, inept, inbred charlatans posing as Religious people. They are no better than common criminals who evidently didn't treat their own children with such barbarity but instead sought to inflict further damage on children who were already disadvantaged by the country of their birth.... It also brings into question the practise of White Parents adopting Black Children... what could they have contributed to or understood about their culture?.... Disgusting and shameful.

Liberia is an English speaking country so the girl would have been a native English speaker. I can feel for her, my father's teaching technique was to slap me when I could not pronounce spanish sounds.

hopefully god will be able to help them when hes getting sodomized (most likely without lube, too). i dont know whatll happen in the womens prison but im sure itll involve large painful insertions. maybe a crucifix?

What 'in the name of God' were those murderers thinking??? Justice WILL prevail in the jailhouse...with any luck, they will be beaten to death by other inmates..while their hollow prayers will go unheeded(of course). People, THERE IS NO GOD, wake the fuck up!!!!!

It can't be coincidental that the child that was beat to death and the other child that was beat for being a bad influence were both adopted children and not biological. Leads me to believe they were part of the jesus toting freaks that were in the video on Jesus camps(youtube) and merely adopting these children to be soldiers in their war against Islam.

Atheist -- You really don't make atheism very good when you come here and speak that way. You can voice your opinion, but there's no need to attack.

I, for one, tend to lean towards not knowing if there's a God...because you really can't know. That's why it's called faith.

Let's give it up for Religion!

Obviously there is something disgustingly wrong with the people doing this. I don't believe religion to be at fault. But you guys will believe what you want to I guess.

lawls

Not only is this sickening, What is worse, those bleeding heart bible thumpers will more than likely let these 2 pieces of shit get away with it.
Then the state will let them have more kids

I live on the next ridge over from these monsters. They are well known local religious celebrities. They were praised for their "family values" on tv in Chico, Ca when they adopted their victims.

They aren't the first victims of the cult of sacrifice and suffering in northern California and they won't be the last until mainstream Christians put an end to the Christian Taliban.

@MCR. Why do you think a quick almost painless death for these pigs is more brutal or better fitting than a lifetime living in a 8'x8' cell and only being able to walk around roughly 3 acres of the entire planet for the rest of your life while living in fear from other monster inmates for murdering your child? I don't get the death penalty or those who think dying is worse than a wasted, fearful, lonely, sad life. Don't people commit suicide because "it's the easy way out"? Same thing goes here - just never let these tools even get the chance to try to get the easy way out. Let 'em burn slowly.

MCR-Go to Hell.....:)

This story is absolutely horrible, and there is no excuse for these parents' cruelty. However, I take offense at blaming any of their behavior on Michael Pearl. Obviously the author hasn't read any of his books and doesn't know jack about him. He would never condone causing physical damage to a child, and certainly wouldn't claim it to be the will of God.

James -- There are just some people who don't deserve to breathe for what they've done, in my opinion. Plus, considering how religious they are, they're probably even more scared of death because they're surely going to hell and they know it.

And I don't think the death penalty should be painless. People who protest about how inhumane certain methods are piss me off. I say whip these douchenozzles until they die.

Funny, people in prison get free health care (on your dime) and the people out working, going to school, or supporting families don't. I'm not for supporting the lives of disgusting human beings like these.

I also want to add that I used to be against the death penalty, so I respect the opinions of those who are against it and I understand them. I'm not fanatical about the death penalty or anything, I just feel the way I do. Vengeance is human nature and I think everyone has their own definition of that -- yours is to lock them up forever, hoping they'll suffer greatly -- mine is to make them wait a few years and then ask them to pronounce "pietrisycamollaviadelrechiotemexity" and then just beat them mercilessly until they die.

Atheist -- You must not be a real Atheist then because there is no hell according to you.

P.S. I don't believe in hell either, so your point is moot.

Somehow this is all atheists and liberals fault.
Don't forget the gays!

But if we kill them for killing another, then what does that make us??

Deliverers of justice.

You're looking at it all wrong, Kristen. We euthanize prisoners, not brutally murder them. What we give them is actually more than they deserve.

I was going to comment on this and go off about Christians, but this just doesn't surprise me at all. If you're religious, and you're surprised right now, I highly suggest you reevaluate your church and the true messages they preach. Some of you may find yourself in shock.

brain washing "literally"? Wtf people must learn what literally means and stop using it everywhere for emphasis. It's not the new "Like, totally", you dimwits.

Yep, these two are nothing like the atheists and agnostics who despised religion and who murdered millions of people in the most brutal ways imaginable in Russia, Eastern Europe, China, Vietnam, and Cambodia and other places.

this is why i stopped going to church. Poor children, I best wishes go out to them.

Shut up, That's funny...everyone has killed everyone else in the past. Your point is irrelevant.

Why cant we just bring the Death Penalty back. They Definitely Deserve it as well as the other criminals.

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/163598.php

Another story about followers of Michael Pearl killing their adopted children.

No, mcr, I'm not going to shut up. That was exactly my point, everyone has killed everyone else in the past. I didn't make it relevant to this conversation - people who generalized from this specific case to all Christians are the ones who made it a relevant point.
If you don't like someone bringing up the murderous history of atheists and agnostics in the 19th and 20th centuries, then don't generalize about others.

What these people did is wrong. However, all of you people who are using this as a reason to condemn them and cook up horrible fates for them in your righteous anger are cut from the same cloth but just lack conviction. Turn that crystal clear eye of judgment on yourself and tell us what you see. Still feeling unforgiving??

Also, ignorant and malicious doesn't have a faith. There are plenty of reasons to condemn people on an individual basis. . .quit being lazy.

@Wanizame: It's a natural reaction, an instinct, that if you believe in God you must believe he put within us, to look at these people with disgust and even hatred, and want them locked away, or even destroyed if possible. It's a reaction we have that keeps us and those we love safe.

Personally, I miss small town justice, but it got too wrapped up in racism when it was more popular. But if you could just take the racism out of it, wouldn't it be better if people like this, who were a danger to your kids and neighbors, just quietly disappeared in the night (like what would have happened in the earlier half of the last century) and the cops didn't ask too many questions?

That's why crime has gotten so out of hand. Communities that used to police themselves don't anymore, and there are so many loopholes in the legal system that some people commit crimes knowing full well that they are definately going to get caught, but don't mind the 10 years they are going to serve of a life sentence, if their lawyer can't get them off completely. If you didn't know what your punishment would be, it would be really hard to weigh out what you were willing to do.

it is my understanding that the "rod" in the bible is supposed to be similar to the rod of a rod of a shepherd. It’s my understanding that “spare the rod spoil the child” means you should guide your children in the correct way. I don’t believe that shepherds use their rods to beat the snot out of their sheep – I think they just use it to gently rein them in when they start going astray. I will certainly not say that I have never swatted the behinds of my children if the situation called for a little shock value however using any instrument is extreme. I read some articles on Mr. Pearl’s website and the idea of “spanking” a 2-year-old every few minutes because he continues to cry after the first time you beat him? It is absurd to me to tell a child to “BE HAPPY” and then spank them if they don’t smile on command?

The Pearls are saying that they don’t encourage beatings – that they say they should be controlled – however they tell of how they have told a child to stop crying, given them a couple of minutes to comply and then “spanked” them again and again until they stopped crying. What if this little girl didn’t stop crying? According to the Pearl’s teachings – at least the articles I read – the parents should continue to administer these “spankings” every few minutes until the child stopped. How can you expect a child to stop crying if you are hitting them every few minutes!?

This is just sad and disgusting. People can blame religion but I love the Lord and can guarantee you that I would never put my child in danger because a pastor or a book told me to. I have been blessed with my children and it’s my job to protect them and love them and teach them the right way. If my pastor were to tell me to beat my child in the name of Jesus –I would tell him he fell off his rocker. I’d just have to take that up with Jesus when I meet him and if he’s unhappy with me for not abusing my child, I’ll be happy to take that chance and cross that bridge when I come to it. My relationship with God has brought a lot of joy to my life. My church is a source of comfort for me and my children. If these people allowed their common sense and basic human conscience to be clouded in the name of God and/or their church– shame on them. They weren’t following any God that I believe in.

Death penalty means nothing in crazy California send them here to Texas we will take care them for everyone!!

I THINK THEY SHOULD BE BEATEN WITH A STICK UNTILL THEY ARE DEAD! AND DO IT SLOWLY SO THOES ASSHOLES CAN FEEL THE PAIN THEY CAUSED TO THOES LIL GIRLS.

In the name of GOD, people are doing all wrong deeds.
they should really put the TN Evangelist in PRISON too.

Thats why I dont follow man made worship place. BS

mcr,
Why don't you be honest? The only real reason you responded to this post is because you don't have the first clue regarding how to spell "extrapolate."

@ Charles Edward Guthrie, mcr is a "law student" in portland, of course mcr has a life!

And yet its the "fags" that states won't let adopt children because they are intrinsically unfit parents.

dui - THANK YOU!!! So right! It just makes me so happy to hear fellow women saying this because it's TRUE. MY BODY is MINE.

Anyway as for this story.. go religion... what other hatred can you bring?! So far religion has taught us that gay marriage is bad, being gay in general is a complete crime, women don't have the rights to their OWN bodies, you're supposed to beat your children apparently? I've basically learned that religion is really based on hatred.

I DO blame religion.. and for those people saying not to.. HOW ABOUT GROWING SOME FUCKING BALLS AND STANDING UP TO THE CONSERVATIVE RIGHT EVANGELICALS!? Seriously! There needs to be a revolution within the religion or this will NEVER end. I'm tired of all the hatred it spreads. I'm tired of living in a country where supposedly church and state is separate but that is so clearly NOT true. I'm tired being stuck in such a 50's mentality and I'm tired of the fear religion instills in people.

typical christians. Once religion is legally recognized as the organized child abuse that it is, millions of children will be freed from their suffering.

Life in prison for a child killer does not tend to be very long at all.

Road Kill 43934 2, What about it? Everything I said is only about a women and her body and her body alone. It's not hers and his, it's not hers and ours, it's just hers. You can judge or justify what ever you want but in the first two months it is not a baby. The developing cells can not maintain life out side of the woman's womb. that's what it is. Go sit in your church and pray for all the female sinners. just in case you forgot God is the only judge not YOU. That's his job.

Sad,

I agree with you. I love the Lord, but if any preacher told me to beat my child, I would tell him the same thing you said you would. Just because we are religious doesn't mean we are blind, deaf, mute sheep who will follow someones word just because we want to be "good" Christians. There are no good Christians and anyone who is a true Christian knows that.

These people aren't Christian. They are fanatical nuts who would do whatever anyone told them.

And as a side note. Yes, true a lot of religious people believe that homosexuality is a sin and that gays go to hell. That is not the case with my preacher or my family. My little brother is gay, and while yes I am a little upset, I believe God loves him just as much as He loves me. In fact, my parents went to a seminar a couple of months ago where there were a lot of parents and siblings of gay people,gay people, and preachers from all around the U.S. So no, not all of us think the way people think we do when it comes to homosexuality.

Dui,

What about a baby born at 4 months? Ever seen that? One of my cousins lost her twin daughters at 4 months. Can't remember all the details, but I know the placenta detached and they were stillborn. They looked just like porcelian dolls. If they doctors had caught it in time, they said there was a good chance the babies would have lived. I do believe some clinics perform abortions that late, and even later into a pregnancy. I'm not sayin all women who have had abortions are sinners or bad, because then I would be judging and your right, that's not my place. But not every woman who has had an abortion has done it to spare their life or because they have been raped or molested or are too young. I read in Glamour a few years ago about a lesbian couple. One of them cheated on the other with a man and got pregnant. They decided to have an abortion because they didn't want the baby. In cases like that, I do not believe in abortion. And once it has a heartbeat, I'm sorry, in my eyes its murder. Disagree with me all you want, but that's my opinion on it and it will never change. Just like you agree with abortion and nothing I say will probably ever change your views. We could all agrue til we are blue in the face about it, and it still won't change a lot of people's opinions. You think its right, I think its wrong. That's the way it is and that's one thing that's so great about the U.S. We don't have a bunch of people forcing us to believe in something we don't want to. Well, they try, but we don't have to if we don't want to!

I agree with you, Mandy.

I also think that abortion is irrelevant to this topic and arguing about it isn't going to do any good.

Mandy, MCR, Why is it that some people single me out an pick on me. I answered Justin that's it. Now it's about babies,killing unborn children? No! Abortion has not one thing to do with this story. And yes to all of you it is MY BODY AND I WILL DO WITH IT AS I WILL.

There needs to be a revolution within the religion or this will NEVER end. I'm tired of all the hatred it spreads. I'm tired of living in a country where supposedly church and state is separate but that is so clearly NOT true.

Dui,

I hope you didn't feel I was singling you out or picking on you. If you did, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intentions. There are some instances I somewhat agree with abortion (i.e. rape, molestation). I put what I did about my cousin because I do think its sick when doctors perform abortions that late. At 4 months along I could feel my daughter moving so to imagine someone having an abortion that late, it just saddens me. And your right, this isn't about abortion. I was just putting my two cents in. Some people think ALL religious people think the same. I was just tryin to point out that they don't by using homosexuality and abortion as examples.

Once again, I apologize if you thought I was attacking you! I generally try not to do that to people since it doesn't make my point very valid and just makes me look like an idiot!

No You don't need to apologize.

Dui,

Ok just making sure! Like I said, I don't generally attack people on here! Its rude and gets you no where! Its not like anyone really knows anyone on here, so what's the point! Well, some people might know eachother, but the majority of us don't!

Do you wonder if Timmy Tebow's mom ever beat him like this? Just a thought....

jadensmokes,
I looked at their websit too. From the little I saw, it promotes phsyical punishment. Is there anything that can be done to take this website down and dismantle this "church"?

Here's their phone number.

1-866-292-9936

I am going to call them and let them know what I think of them (no greater joy)

This is the most sickening thing I have seen on the website to date.

I wish I never read this.

"They should be chained to a tree and beaten and tortured to death"
... and you would gladly volunteer to do it I guess ??

LOL @Pro-Life -- TEEEEEEBBBBBBOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!!!!

I went to UF. :)

Two less Palin voters!

mcr, (alexa)
I was going to say something really mean to you and I will keep it to myself. (regarding spelling and pronunciation)

dui,
as if we don't know who you are (CC)

I can't believe this story and I am willing to throw up a white flag if you do the same (mcr) but don't insult me. Because I realize that as I cook my daughter something I know she will really like and was so worried that it would be too hot for her and burn her and was so excited to find birthday cake ice cream (1/2 the calories) for her today, there is a million miles of separation between the rest of us and these people. I am still digesting this story. I can't believe it. I am not usually like this but I think I would enjoy seeing these people die a horrible slow death. But be rest-assured, they do have shampoo bottles, etc. in jail and I'm quite sure that's what this woman will be killed with. As for a grown man that has a 7-yr old girl held down for him to beat to death, I think his life expectancy is somewhere between 0 and yesterday. Disturbing to think, my brothers were saying some crap to me one day and I said " Oh yeah whatever, I'm going to kill you with a butter knife and it's going to take all day." We thought this was funny. I'm sickened in a way that I have never been sickened before by this story.

WOW, You don't mean a thing to me, nor do I need to hide who I am. CC is my niece like I have already said whats it to you anyway? TS. And guess what Sandy is my sister. And I like Jane Wilder and MCR. Now what? As to correcting MCR good luck you could not do it on your best day. Suck on that Cake.

Someone should beat these 2 people on the back, face, and ass with a metal bar.

Wow, this is sad. I'm a Christian and it makes me sick that someone would actually profess Jesus who was full of love and peace and do such a thing. That's not the Holy Spirit.

When you think you have heard everything you hear something like this. I really can't put into words how I fell about the two adults in this story.No, you know what I can ay something ,let me in a room alone wiyh the both of them and I would show them a thing o two.

I have come across numerous biblical citations that liken Michael Pearl's teachings to that of the anti-christ because they steal up children's souls with violent dominance before they have a choice or are aware, right from infancy they are dominated into submission with pain. Remember, the anti-christ fools people into worshipping him as God. Michael Pearl tries to give people the illusion that they can control completely like God and they can be God-like and "sit as God." Once his obedient souless minions are in place and fully obedient to him he can denounce the religion that got him power, just like the Bible predicts.

Michael Pearl instigated it. He should be on trial as an accomplice.

The thing that's bad about this is. Who would allow anyone to adapt 9 kids. Most kids get adapted because these people get money from the government to take the kids. They don't care about the kids, all they care about is the money. There are stories like this all over. Kids living in cages, starved, betten and abuse. All adapted. The social worker who was responsiable for the kids should fired and jailed with the parents.

All you saying "See what religion does to people?" are quick to forget that atheist regimes (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) killed FAR more people in the 20th Century than past religious regimes.

Evil is evil, sometimes religious people do it, sometimes atheists do it.

Any fool knows that God does not want you to brainwash your children with pain and beatings. The better question is not these silly semantics but what is wrong with our society that this lunatic is publishing rather than being locked up (like anyone else would for practicing these things) and other people go to jail for much less. How could a man with this mind get degrees from college. He is clearly insane. This behavior is simply brainwashing and nothing to do with religion. Michael Pearl is the Osama Bin Laden of children

Ah, Phil, Hitler was a Christian, just like those kind folks who brought us the Inquisition.

Charge Pearle also- conspiracy to commit murder.

Man, that sucks big time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbi9GgbiCZ0

Good King Wenscelas: \chior:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4MWOpEXe5w

Catch me if you can mcr,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2XaBjF8QW8

natasha pocket full of sunshine.............

Makes me sick. These people obviously enjoyed doing this - they just used the cover-up of religion to hide their real f*cktard ways from others and themselves.

Phoebe,

Get a clue on your spelling so people will take you seriously.

No mercy.

A sure sign someone has absolutely NOTHING going on...they come here to post links to shitty songs they like.

From The Office of Eve (the bosses' office-from Genesis to today),

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXtojVGEZmg

Your task is to keep yourself pure from the desires of others and forward your good will. Catch me if you can but not in this decade.

I'd gladly bash em in with their own hands... And laugh the entire time!! muhahahahahha.... DIIIEEEEEE

What is truly sad is that this couple followed the recommendation of a 'minister' that has NO ministerial credentials whatsoever.

I can only hope that this can be stopped before another child dies.

So some dude killed a little niglet? What is the big deal?

Pete Kotz ,
My husband and I bought our daughter C.C. Her own lap top computer so ours is off limits. I am taking my sister's advice and posting to you, that I was not the one on this site getting pissed at people. I don't always agree with some of the users, but neither do they with me no one on here all agrees with one another that is why it is so popular. I can tell you this I have not posted on this website since Seth and I talked about his Cows.LOL. He and I posted to one another and he admitted that he said the things to get people pissed and to respond to him. That was at X-mas( he's quite intelligent) My family and I have a personal interest in the Wirth topic. I would however like to resume posting on this website. I can guarantee you that my daughter and school mates will not be using my IP address on my computer. As to DUI, I am not responsible for her comments. I hope this will not be a problem? Thanks Mcr, Marie , from my family and I......... RIP Jennie
Anon, what a nasty remark, the child is beautiful.

Pete Kotz said:

Don't worry about it, Sandy. Welcome back.

Thanks Pete that means a lot to me. I have never been kicked off of a website before. If it is any consolation C.C and 3 of the other students did extremely well. So good in fact Katie, C.C, David and Dan are invited to do half their clinical at Stanford and the other half at Roseville Hospital. Sorry for the inconvenience TCR contributed to our youths education???

C.C.,
Are you joking Sandy?!?!? Getting kicked off of a website is like a notche on the bedpost. Honor it. For it will not happen again. I have been kicked off of msn, and many other websites for telling the truth.

Thanks alot for not including me. Ah well, I guess I don't need the additional education. I shouldn't be so selfish.

Sorry Rocki, I figured if I included you we might hear back from Seth or the Colonel. I love my daughter and I would do anything for her but when it comes to my TCR stay away from my computer!

I'm glad those sick sons of bitches were put away before they could do any more damage to those children, but I think that they should have been shot on site for what they did...better yet, they should have been quartered!

Sandy,
Seriously, thank you for not including me. I have a lot more education than you or mcr. I only know about writing. My whole life has been writing documents. But to say that you are afraid of me? I don't know anything about hacking into computers. I am not Seth or Colonel Sanders. Just because I am more intelligent than they, doesn't mean I control them. I think they are funny. I think someone has led you down the wrong path. Just like the above people were led.

Rocki, shut the fuck up and quit bringing me into your passive-aggressive insulting bullshit. It's old.

And just the way you type shows that you aren't very educated at all. You're really not fooling anybody, except maybe yourself.

Wow, what an ego...maybe you should read about tact when dealing with others, rocki. Oh, wait, they don't have that in books do they?

There are different degrees of intelligence, not all of it comes from books and formal education. Some of it is common, or not so common it seems. Some of it is gained through life experience. Don't be so quick to belittle others because they didn't attend an ivy league school.

Rocki didn't attend an Ivy League school either. "I have a lot more education than you or mcr." You don't HAVE "a lot more education;" you're educated. She does this EVERY TIME she tries to put someone else down...shows how stupid she herself really is. It's sad. Quit embarrassing yourself, Rocki.

What? When have I ever disguised myself as Jaden? I don't think that last comment was really Jaden. Rocki...GROW UP.

And you really gave yourself away with all your typos, rocki.

It's the same fucking thing mcr. I'm not going to sit here and talk 3rd grade spelling with you bitch.

It's kind of ironic poetic justice that you have completely lost sight of the story that a 7 year old was beaten to death because she couldn't pronounce a word, spelling and grammar nazi.

jadensmokes said:
Sorry rocki, I meant mcr because she was insulting you, not yo her. She has now tact and to disguise herself as me is pretty low.

i did not make this post. There are three of us on the thread. I doubt mcr posted it as it places blame on her. If it wasn't me and it wasn't mcr, that leaves you, rocki. seriously, i think you may need to look into some psych meds because that's just warped. please don't use my name again.

Shut up jadensmokes,
Like I said before, I will kick your ass nine ways to Sunday in a way that you will thoroughly enjoy. No spelling or talking required!

Oh, that's a mature and intellectual debate! Sorry where I missed your first threat, I'm sure it was every bit as humorous as this one. What college subject did you take to learn how to kick the ass of someone you don't even know? That would be a pretty amazing feat.

mcr,
I feel REAL sorry for you. If you would read the whole thing, you would see it was a joke but you are hopeless.

Rocki, really I was just joking about Seth and the colonel. I have not been on this site since around the end of 12/09-being01/10. I know you were talking to my daughter and her study buddies. Yes it was fun with Seth, I didn't like the colonel. “The smarter than I am you are thing is really stupid.” We probably all have a masters degree here on this site and most of the people that post on this website. Honestly big deal. An education does not determine ones intelligence. I can't spell worth shit and I dropped out of high school, but I know I'm not stupid. I'm glad I received a degree My education didn't get me any further than the guy behind me in line at Winco, we are both lucky if we have enough money to make it to the end of the month.

Well there's no punchline and I'm not laughing. What a loser you must be, rocki. Seriously, get a life.

Rocki, I may have lost sight of what this thread is about (and you totally haven't, right?), but at least I'm still in touch with reality. That's a lot more important. See a psych and get yourself some help, woman.

Just a few points from my POV.

1: This couple did not beat the children because of their religion they beat their children because someone told them it was OK to do so. They could have been of any faith or none at all.

2: We don't help this kind of situation nor do we prevent it from re-occuring by beating or torturing the offenders. What we do is to show them that we are better than that by humanely imprisoning them and attempting to rehabilitate them.

3: The Pearl's are not being held responsible for their books' effects on others and they should be as they are both legally and morally culpable here.

I agree RAy THat is all those parents knew. If they are hurt like they likely were, what will this teach them?Nothing.

I want to mention something regarding biblical bible quotes.
The Old Testament's statement that if "you beat them with a rod, they will not die. Proverbs 23:13 is wrong.
Countless children have died. Jesus went against many of the Old Testament teachings.
King Soloman wrote the quotes that support physically assaulting children.
Well, King Soloman and his son heavily taxed their kingdom and was otherwise brutal.Was that based on God's teachings?son he was ousted. Who have him the right to have power over the people?
Here is a quote by Rehoboam.
"Whereas my father laid upon you a heavy yoke, so shall I add tenfold thereto. Whereas my father chastised (tortured) you with whips, so shall I chastise you with scorpions. For my littlest finger is thicker than my father's loins; and your backs, which bent like reeds at my father's touch, shall break like straws at my own touch."
So people like Michael Pearl are following the teachings of brutal leaders not God or Jesus.
Does this make sense?

The more I read about this story the more my heart breaks. This is so awful. I just want to cry every time I read something new.
I am glad more and more people are speaking out about this.
I just wanted to point everyone to an excellent response to Pearl’s awful “laughter” that Vyckie Garrison at No Longer Quivering has written.
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/03/03/no-laughing-matter-michael-pearls-callous-response-to-critics/#more-4517

The FBI should tradk down and investigate everyone who has purchased the child torture-manual the Pearls have written.

This has to be stopped. This is not the first child who has died as a result of their sick, sadistic "teaching".

The descriptions on how to beat your children into submission using pvc piping reads like something off the sickest, darkest BDSM website you'll ever see.

These people and their followers are animals.

And how did these parents, who had been beating their other children regularly for ages, ever get to adopt these three?

What the hell is going on? This is sick!

They beat her for hours, it says. Can you imagine? Hours??? After 10 or 11 hits you'd be pretty bad off - probably vomit and/or crap yourself... but HOURS worth?

These people do not need the death penalty... that'd be too humane. They need to be beaten to with the same exact piece of plastic pipe... until they are inches from death. Only then will they come to an understanding that they seriously had it dead-wrong.

Hmmm.....

Well I guess the question is...

1.) mcr is still alive and antidepressants help millions.

or

2.) mcr is dead and millions of people kill themselves while on anti-depressants.

Hmmm... wonder which it is.

Anyone for fava beans and doughnuts with sprinkles?

And yes, I HAVE a lot more education than you. My degree is mine, it belongs to me and only me. I own it, I posses it, I HAVE it.

You know you've got problems when you're still obsessed with someone who's not even posting here anymore.

wtf, That's what I'm saying!!!!!!!!

Pete Kotz said:

MCR's alive and well, Sandy. She's just posting as "wtf" now.

She has'nt had any new dramas lately to feed her mcr addiction so she is going back to find any old unresponded post LOL!

There are species on this planet earth that eat their young. Frogs, fish, sometimes male dogs. These people and Michael Pearl are of the same mold. Why would we take the time to figure out why & think that this is a result of complex situations when we can reduce it to the facts? We need not compare ourselves to people who would do this.

Thank You Pete, Love You MCR (wtf). Pete I think it's my computer? I don't have any luck with these things. I am going to take my computer in to be looked at the 25th, sorry everyone for posting 2x's. wtf glad your okay and back. Hi Marie, iLLusion,jadensmokes, everyone.

Pete,
I think the more important question is why people love mcr instead of rocki? Why do people love the pecking order instead of the scientific truth and the fact that the future is yet unknown? Why do we fear the unknown and embrace the pecking order of dogs? I know mcr is not going anywhere, she is too vain and young to ever kill herself. I just got her on an ironic spelling error so there was nowhere for her to retreat to. So mcr, I ask the question again. If these drugs prevent suicide and prevent you from killing yourself, where are you? Either rocki is right, and they kill people or you are still alive. Which is it?

Ha ha revealing mcr's true identity is kinda cruel and funny all at the same time. I guess Pete she did say a few nasty things to you huh? All is fair in love and war :))))

@ rocki to answer your question which was "Why people love mcr instead of rocki?" Well I can answer that, my dislike for you does not come from mcr's words. They come from your own obsessions You take EVERYTHING to obsessive extremes. Erratic and abnormal behaviour.If it is'nt anit-deppressant u use in EVERY post it's mcr. You claim to let things go and NEVER have. You attack people who have any opinion that is NOT related to agreeing with u about anti-deppresants, or if they don't share ur dislike for mcr. I know mcr is stubborn, mouthy, and head strong BUT. You are just past the point of coherent thought.

it isn't about the pecking order, rocki. if you weren't so adamant about being superior because of a claimed degree or two you would be easier to tolerate. braggarts never sit well with me.

mcr on the other hand shared personal and relevant to topic information many times. she is totally human, with faults, like the rest of us here. difference is we all admit it whilst you sit in your imagined ivory tower and play lord over everyone else.

by the way, i am not a guy...but you know that, you just like to needle people for a reaction. it's pitiful really. the only way you know how to interact with others is to belittle them in order to make yourself feel superior.

besides that, you make little sense as illusions pointed out so deftly.

Pete Kotz said:

We've been having server problems all week, Sandy, so it could be on our end too.

dui said:

Jason,
How old were you when you got your menstrual cycle? How many pregnancies have you had? How many live births have you had? How many vaginal births or C-Sections have you had? How many abortions have you had? If you can't answer yes to any of these questions you know nothing about what a women knows or goes through with her own body. Until such times as you can give birth and have your own baby you have nothing to say of any importance about what we as women can do with our bodies. You can debate that any way you want to.

Jesus double christ, dui (sandy) how many abortions have you had in high school. This is scary even to me.

Anyhow, I will tear myself away from this egotistical "I'm right" whole thing. But I'm not on any mind-altering substances, just coffee and the okaishional drink. I am the most perfect speller, a US citizen born in PA and a graduate of Penn State UNIVERSITY (please be aware there is a difference between a "college" and a "university")

Why don't you come over here and beat me with plumbing equipment for my spelling errors and ERASE ME!

Pete,
Since mcr is still alive and she apparrently said she had killed herself, can I get her on filing a false police report?

Rocki, this is your WAR and your WAR alone. Just re-read the comments that you post. You are obsessed with Antidepressants, being the smartest one on this website, you are driving yourself crazy about certain people(mcr). You have made this Website your small world. If it makes you feel better YES in a SMALL percentage antidepressants may cause people to experience side affects. Rocki, there are so many cases that antidepressants have changed people's lives for the better, saved their lives. Do you or anyone else thank that people wake up one morning and say "Oh I want to be on antidepressants! I want to be Bipolar! I want to be so depressed that I want to kill myself and I don't want to get out of bed for weeks." HELL no!!! Antidepressants gave me and 100's of thousands of other people their lives back. Look at just a few on this site Marie, Myself, Mcr. That's 3. You and your dad 2 they didn't help. 2 out of 3. Everyone has an OPINION on these topics and what we are missing is; What right do we have to try and change another person's opinion by being abusive. A friendly DEBATE is Okay. So lets stop hating each other and get back to the topis.

Last Post case and point. I think its more than the occasional drink there, be realistic. Oh yep that is your other obssesion talking about college and university. How smart you are, and the more you try to prove how smart and all knowing you are rocki,...the worse you appear.

Pete Kotz said:

Well Rocki, you both can get pretty mean at times, and you both use other names to insult people. You gotta remember I can see your IP addresses on my screen.

And while you may have a beef with anti-depressants, everyone has heard your position many times. So to keep beating that drum is going to irritate people. I'd just suggest trying to talk about something else. You're both much too smart to spend your time insulting each other over the internet.

I spit out my drink in lauphter!

well hello there mcr! :)

I give up! mcr just don't post back to her she is a sick woman and God knows she is in need of some serious help. For her daughters sake I hope she gets it. Mcr you are a smart girl and everyone here knows that answering Rocki is not smart. Her post are childish and silly. If we took a vote on here most of us would vote her OFF. Just ask the Guest I'm sure they will agree.
Back to the Topic, all in the name of religion.

Christian fundamentalists should not be allowed to adopt, period. Most of them believe in harsh discipline and corporal punishment. This is the wrong environment for a child. I hope these people get the death penalty for murdering that girl. Also, people who adopt internationally often do so for the wrong reasons. They may do so to look good in front of their community, or they may see it as "trendy" to adopt kids from other countries. Sad thing is, many of these children were stolen and sold to orphanages - they may have living parent(s) who are searching for them! Selling babies to orphanages is big money, in fact, its why some international adoptions in other countries has been halted, or stopped, completely. Americans need to think twice about adoption, period. They are contributing to a worldwide problem of baby stealing and child trafficking.

Oh, I know, Sandy. But sometimes it's fun to stoop down to the level of a preschooler for a few minutes...where rocki lives year round. :)

Just know, that I'm a strong woman and I would never take my own life because someone on the internet doesn't believe I was raped.

But just to clarify, Ryan, the Marine guy everyone loves, tracked me down on facebook and I post on there about everything that happens with my case to my friends and family, so he knows it's true. The only reason I have enough time on my hands to visit this site is because I had to drop my classes for the term in an attempt to handle this. Not only was I raped by someone I thought I could trust, I was raped only a few hours after I had to put my little man-cat to sleep. So I was already devastated. The man who raped me was supposed to be my friend and offered to give me a ride to have my cat put to sleep. That was on January 29th of this year, which is right around the time I started posting on here quite a bit. Before that I would only post every now and then.

Despite all that, my life rules and I have so much to be thankful for! I wouldn't let some demented twat like rocki make me think otherwise. :)

I'm sorry mcr to hear about this, you are a very strong person. You will never forget, but in time it gets manageable. I know! You have a good head on your shoulders. Ryan seems like a great person. TCR has done a lot for people. I mean really. I have some great friends because of this site, it helps me vent. Talking to people like you has done me a world of good. For someone to physically hurt another person or post really ugly crap about others shows how evil some people really are. But you know, there are a lot of really good people in this world. TCR shows us the small percentage of evil people and there is a big world out there with a lot of good people. This is news and Shitty people make news.
I just want to say one more thing about the adoption issue. Lindy I agree with you. People don't adopt the children in this country after the cute age birth – 4 years . There are children from 4 -17 years old that needs homes, but stay in the system until they are 18 years old and get kick out in the street. (most become homeless) No one adopts this kids because their older, but yet US citizens go to other countries for babies and very young children. They want the babies or as Lindy said “ they adopt in other counties to look good to others or for the wrong reasons.” If people in the US would adopt US children of all AGES, it would not stop abuse completely but adopted children would be less likely to be abused. Kids here in the US know the system, they know the rules of the game they have been placed in. They are more likely to act out, tell someone, or the system steps in to protect the kids(schools, doctors) unlike adopted children from other countries. Sad all the way around.
PLEASE no attaching, my guard dog is off duty tonight

This is absolutely a horrific and terrible thing. Please don't defame Michael Pearl - he does not promote beating of children. He is a God-fearing man with an amazing ministry and amazing kids. This is not his fault that this couple is whacked out.

I'd LOVE to see what would happen at Wal-Mart or any other store if a kid acted up and mom got out the "rod of discipline", threw the little offender on the floor and started whacking the kid with it. And honestly, how many people would go up to her and say, "it seems like you're having trouble holding the little brat still while you beat him. Would you like for me to hold him for you so you can get a more steady grip on your pipe?"

Any reasonable person would know that you can't beat a child into learning how to spell. Some people always have and always will suck at it. You can beat me within a inch of my life and expect that I'll understand some math concepts well. My brain just doesn't process that type of information well. If people could learn things with a good thrashing every now and then we would be a country filled with geniuses only to be rivaled by the Asian kids whose parents try to out-beat us with their children to stay one step ahead.

I know nothing about the Pearl's except for what I have read here and then starting reading comments online regarding their methods and their books. Here is a disturbing site I found:

http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

This particular incident wasn't the direct fault of the Pearl's any more than it's a television show writer's fault because someone got the idea to murder someone else based on something they saw on TV. I think that weak-minded individuals can very easily be sucked into Pearl's warped line of thinking, especially when they are basically told it's ok to do this, and this is how parenting should be.

The Pearl method of child-rearing seems suck the love and joy out of parenting and replace it with dominance and control. Wonder what they do when the kid wets the bed?

The author has clearly not read Michael Pearl's books, which resulted in a very misinformed article.

Defame the Pearls? Hah, they've done it to themselves! We didn't have to read his book, Gilly. We visited his warped web site which has plenty of damning evidence of his child rearing techniques of control and dominance. If you are a follower of Christ's teaching then you are well aware that He never used dominance or control over others. He allowed us the free will to choose our own destiny. The Pearl's have chosen theirs and they should pay accordingly for their abetting the beating of children to the point of death, not once, but twice, that we know of.

For all of you who are blaming Michael Pearl for this, or for being an "accomplice to torture and murder", have any of you read all or any of his articles, books, etc.? He IN NO WAY advocates beating or torture of children, or anybody for that matter. He is a leader of a wonderful, Biblical method of TRAINING children: training them to be honest, hard-working, motivated, morally sound members of public society... how most people want their kids to turn out. His training methods can be summed up in one sentence: NEVER REWARD NEGATIVE BEHAVIOUR AND ALWAYS REWARD POSITIVE BEHAVIOUR, in other words: CONSISTENTLY MAKE NEGATIVE BEHAVIOUR INCONVENIENT AND POSITIVE BEHAVIOUR CONVENIENT. (amazing how far that falls from beating and torture for mistakes, isn't it?)

As an example of what Michael Pearl teaches, this is a shortened account of a chapter in one of his main books: No Greater Joy - Volume One:

Little Suzy, not old enough to crawl or walk, starts crying and whining every time her mother leaves the room... she's upset that she isn't being picked and carried along. The mother goes along with Suzy's wishes and continuously lets her get her own way by turning around and picking her up.

Eventually, the mother realizes that this is not building an strong, self-controlling character in her young daughter... she is learning that to get her way, all she has to do is start whining. So, Mom resorts to a new technique to train her daughter that she will not get her way by whining.

Every time Suzy whines, her mother ignores her, refusing to look at her, be in the same room, or talk to her. She knows Suzy is in a safe place and is not hungry or in need of anything... she just wants to get her way. Eventually, Suzy gives up whining and starts to play. Then her mother goes to her, picks her up and holds her, rewarding her for being happy.

After consistently doing this for a few days, Suzy has stopped whining to get her way and instead is a cheerful, happy baby who everyone loves to be around... she is not a BURDEN, she is a DELIGHT (hence the name of Pearl's ministry: NO GREATER JOY "than to see that my children walk in truth")

Now, does this sound like something an advocate of beating would write? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Pearl DOES teach that using a switch (note: switch, or twig, not 15 inch piece of plastic tubing) at times of misbehaviour is a constructive aid in "making negative behaviour inconvenient" (anything becomes inconvenient if you get a slap on the hand every time you do it). BUT, he also warns against abuse... he promotes a moderate slap or two to show authority, but he absolutely does not promote prolonged physical (or otherwise) punishment of children.

Michael Pearl is an upstanding Christian man who's greatest interest is building upstanding characters in small children, who will grow up to be successful contributors to society.

I hope some of you will get the hint and maybe look into what EXACTLY Michael Pearl teaches, instead of assuming he taught these parents to beat and kill their child, and blaming him for their crimes... and he is doing an interview on CBS in the near future... maybe you should all tune in and hear for yourself what he has to say about this terrible incident.

@ Reid:

Just so you know... Michael Pearl's wife, Debi, wrote an article on bed-wetting in one of their books and her opinion is this:

"To the many hundreds of moms who have written, I just want to say, 'Relax," teach your bedwetting children to privately put on a towel or diaper at night. Remind them to go to the bathroom, but don't make an issue of it. They hate their problem more than you do. They're the ones who wake up cold, wet, smelly, and embarrassed."

SOUND LIKE AN ABUSIVE MOTHER TO YOU?

I DIDN'T THINK SO!

christian,
Hello,
These methods have been around since before the 70's. He is only teaching children by association with adverse stimuli (switching) Many of the ideas he has are good, like ignoring the bed-wetting, and teaching kids to clean their toys by association. But it stops when he says "training children & switching" "Training" is for animals (he could use some b/c he has the mentality of an animal.) And physical punishment on any age below toddler is actually legally child abuse. "Switching" a 6 month old is legally child abuse. So, believe what you want, you have obviously been fooled by Lucifer, the anti-christ (Pearl) You should read up on the anti-christ and see how it fools people and then denounces what got them to power. He is saying that religion is his power but it really is simple behaviorism studied on rats and dogs by Pavlov & BF Skinner. I would think the more important question is how he managed to get a degree from a US Educational system given how mentally ill he is. I would start my investigations with the college he graduated from to get a whole picture of how this could have happened.

@ BTBig:

What is your basis for labeling Michael Pearl as "mentally ill"? Have you had some kind of conversation or association with him that gave you this impression? Or are you just spouting your own opinion with nothing to base it on... if so, don't say it like it's a fact.

Also, when you go to school to train to be a doctor, mechanic, business manager, etc., are you becoming an animal? When you go to business training conferences or take online training courses, are you an animal?

The verb "to train" is defined as follows in Webster's Dictionary: to form the habits, thoughts, or behaviour of by discipline and instruction; to make proficient by instruction and practice

Note that it is not defined as being specifically applicable to animals...

Okay, now that we're past the vocabulary lesson, do you have an effective way of teaching a one-year-old to stop grabbing things off the table without giving him a light slap to show that reaching for a hot coffee cup is not allowed? Does your way work?

The entire reason Pearl recommends using a switch as opposed with your own hand is so your toddler doesn't associate your hand with pain... a parent's hand is meant to love, to hold, to comfort. So the discipline comes from a switch. The last thing he wants is to make your child afraid of you.

In no way does Pearl advocate abuse. He teaches what the Bible teaches: To love your children and not provoke them to anger. What Kevin & Elizabeth Schatz did to their children is a prime example of criminals finding a belief and expanding on it (becoming extremists) to make excuses for the criminalistic behaviour that is already in them.

If the CEO of a company kills someone, do we blame the company, or do we blame him?

The Schatz' are to blame, not Michael Pearl or his beliefs, since Pearl's books and articles condemn the actions of this couple as much as any one of us does.

Here's part of a paragraph Michael Pearl wrote in his book, No Greater Joy - Volume Two, that deals specifically with spanking and abuse. It is written at the end of a chapter that tells how a father convinced his son to obey a command immediately by giving him a few spankings every time he did not immediately obey. Since the boy was used to continuously disobeying his father, and the father wanted to win the obedience of his son once and for all, it took 3-5 spankings after the same command (to stop whining... he wanted to come out of his restraining seat in the car) given every 5 minutes during a 20 mile drive for the boy to give immediate obedience. Here's what Pearl writes:

"There are those of you who will think that the 20 miles of spanking was cruel. Remember, this was not a daily event; it was a 'war to end all wars.' The spankings were not wild, violent affairs. They were not greatly painful. They were done in quiet calm and dignity. It is not the SEVERITY of the spanking but the CERTAINTY of it that gives it persuasive power. Our object in spanking is not to cause the child to so fear the pain that he obeys. It is to gain the child's attention and give him respect for the parent's word. I know that there are abusive, angry parents out there who, through their own inconsistency, find themselves in a position where they excessively spank every day. Spanking should just be part of a training program. It is our consistency that trains. The rod [spanking] just gives credibility to our word. If your word is not credible, no amount of the rod [spanking] will be effective. YOU WILL BECOME ABUSIVE. If you feel abusive, you probably are. Abusiveness resides in the mind and heart, NOT in the switch. Get counsel and advice from a close friend who has a Biblical perspective on child training."

Remember...THIS COMES STRAIGHT FROM MICHAEL PEARL HIMSELF!

Jesus may never have used dominance or force over others but "GOD" sure did in the Old Testament killing whole cities to show his vengance and jealousy. And then he tells us not to be jealous...And aren't they the same "person"?

Guys, while it's true that if all of this is true, remember you don't know for sure, and you surely haven't heard two sides to the story. While you accuse these apparent "abusers" so angrily, remember that there are ALWAYS two sides to a story. For all we know, the way CA has made things so difficult for Christians they could be making a big to do about nothing. Keep your heads on straight.

What do you mean apparent "abusers"?! They ARE abusers they killed that little girl, and shes not able to tell us her side of the story now. Christians have made things difficult for themselves, and even though not all religious people are crazy, we just hear more about the ones who are.

christian,
You seem like an intelligent person so I'm sure your being a little facetious when you question my remark about Mr. Pearl's mental state. He is the product of an extreme rural and conservative religious upbringing. His techniques and views of women and children are cultist. He is most likely senile at this time. His site also contains stories of himself "switching" babies who want to go outside and sitting on the head of a 7 year old boy to restrain him.

People need to be very careful about taking things in the Bible literally. The Bible has been changed by people, not God, throughout history. There may be more parts that were banned or changed in addition to the Gospel of Judas. A priest banned this as blasphemy at one time and it has been rediscovered. It paints a picture of Judas as dutiful and loyal, not a traitor. There is one part of the Bible where Jesus has a conversation with another apostle (can't remember) that tells him he does not have to suffer and die like he was meant to and knew he would. Jesus answered this with a certain no, that it would be a temptation for him not die on the cross.

Mr. Pearl is teaching something quite out of the spirit of the Bible in that humans were his final creation and have free will. If people noticed, the angels were created first and had no free will. They were bound to worship and please God. The fall of Lucifer is final and unchangeable. Humans have the ability to sin (err and be human) and then to be saved and be good. He never teaches subjugation of anyone in order to be saved and believe his word. To take away that choice from children is to go directly against God's teachings.

Yet another example of the media double standard - and perhaps more and more the double standards being promoted in our culture.

When Islamic Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan massacred 13 people at Ft. Hood we were all told that this was an isolated case and his actions should not be construed as typical of the disciples of Islam. This is preached to us over and over again whenever our nation is hit with the terrorist acts of Islamic assasins.

But whenever one "fundamentalist Christian" does some wacko, evil thing, this is automatically considered proof that all members of that group do the same and that what they have done is typical of anyone who would follow their teachings.

Darby said:
See what religion does to people?

Posted 02/23/2010 at 12:33:21 AM

Dear Darby: A really intelligent comment. Like there is no such thing as an athiest or non-religious person who abuses their children?

Far more abused children are abused by parents who are alcoholics, drug addicts and/or divorced/never married than children who are abused for exclusively "religious" reasons. And that doesn't even consider the number of children who are sexually abused by parents whose sexual appetites are twisted by porn.

first, i don't think we that are posting here are damning all religion, we're talking about the pearls and how they are complicit in two murders of children that were beaten to death.

someone earlier, a follower of pearls, said he has never advocated beating a child with a piece of plastic tubing used in plumbing. if that is the case, perhaps you just haven't read that part. because the facts are, two sets of parents used the same exact tubing to beat their children to death and both sets of parents said that the pearls are the ones that gave them this idea.

i am a believer in freedom of religion, and if you want to follow the pearls and their teachings that is strictly your business. when a child dies unncecessarily, then it becomes society's concern. when any religion results in the abuse, torcher, and death or pain of another, then as a society we must stand up and be heard over and above the religion that is touted.

to the followers that are here trying to explain away the deaths of two children to all of us, why not explain to the pearls that they should make some adjustments in their thinking and how they instruct other's to beat their children. we aren't the problem, the pearls are!

jadensmokes said:
"to the followers that are here trying to explain away the deaths of two children to all of us, why not explain to the pearls that they should make some adjustments in their thinking and how they instruct other's to beat their children. we aren't the problem, the pearls are!"

Just wanted to say (since I'm sure I'm one of the ones you were addressing) that I am IN NO WAY trying to "explain away" the deaths of two children... I am trying to say that Michael Pearl's teachings CONDEMN the actions of these abusive parents and that everyone who is blaming Pearl is doing so out of complete ignorance. He teaches beating is wrong, absolutely wrong (and suggests abusive parents seek counsel and help... see my post above) but that a MODERATE slap or 2, or a quick spanking, is beneficial in SOME SITUATIONS. I feel just as strongly as you do that these children's deaths are wrong... and what their parents did was completely wrong.

I think everyone who feels the need to comment on the association with the Pearls should first read 3 of his books (To Train Up A Child, and No Greater Joy Volumes One & Two) from cover to cover... and then comment. If you can't do that, then spend 3 hours reading articles on his website dealing with child training. And if you can't do that, then don't post negative comments about something you know NOTHING about!

(And I'm not saying this to you personally, jadensmokes, but to all the commenters here.)

BTBig said:
"You seem like an intelligent person so I'm sure your being a little facetious when you question my remark about Mr. Pearl's mental state. He is the product of an extreme rural and conservative religious upbringing. His techniques and views of women and children are cultist. He is most likely senile at this time. His site also contains stories of himself "switching" babies who want to go outside and sitting on the head of a 7 year old boy to restrain him."

First, I was not being the least bit facetious when I wrote what I did... it was said in complete seriousness.

Second, Pearl's views on women and children are completely Biblical, whether you agree or not. Here are a few verses from the Bible...

"Children, obey your parents in the LORD."
"Wives, reverence your husbands."
"Husbands, love your wives as your own flesh."
"Provoke not your children to anger."

And that's just the beginning....

You mentioned an account of Pearl switching babies who want to go outside. What you failed to mention is that they were NOT ALLOWED to go outside and were DISOBEYING a command. He did not punish them for wanting to go outside (that would be insane), but rather for failing to obey a simple command (very reasonable, since children must be obedient to their parents). I'm not sure if you failed to read that part, or just purposefully failed to include it in your comment....

About the account of Pearl sitting on the head of a 7-year-old boy to restrain... if I'm thinking of the right story (correct me if I'm wrong), it was done in fun (playfighting). As far as I know, that is completely normal for men and boys to do and it has been that way for thousands of years....

As for your comments on Pearl's RELIGIOUS teachings (not child training), that is not related to the issue at hand, but I will address them anyway. Every Christian has different views on the way of salvation. That's why there are so many hundreds of denominations and independent churches out there, all slightly different in this respect. Personally, I don't agree with every point Michael Pearl teaches on the salvation of sinners. What I have been taught is significantly different. But I do know that his views on women, children, and parenting are the closest to the Bible I have found to date. Every religion out there (Christian, Islam, Catholic, etc.) produces extremists who either highly exaggerate one or more points of their religion or who use different religious beliefs as excuses for violent behaviour which the religion/church in no way endorses. I wholeheartedly believe that is the case with the Schatz couple... they are extremists whose behaviour and actions Pearl's religious views condemn.

christian,
That's very interesting, but if all the societal norms that were in place when the Bible was written can be used today, why is there no mention of how much computer and video game time kids should have, and why it's wrong to drive drunk and spend too much time on the phone? (Because they weren't invented yet, just like modern society.) The Bible cannot account for societal norms, where women have equal rights and child labor is illegal BECAUSE of the fact that humans have free will and the future was unknown at that time. Free will and subjugation and oppression are the opposite. Even your quote "Husbands, love your wives as your own flesh" right from the Bible is telling in that the way women were treated back then is wrong and men need to do better and treat women as equals. Treat them as you would treat yourself.

BTBig said:
"christian,
That's very interesting, but if all the societal norms that were in place when the Bible was written can be used today, why is there no mention of how much computer and video game time kids should have, and why it's wrong to drive drunk and spend too much time on the phone? (Because they weren't invented yet, just like modern society.) The Bible cannot account for societal norms, where women have equal rights and child labor is illegal BECAUSE of the fact that humans have free will and the future was unknown at that time. Free will and subjugation and oppression are the opposite. Even your quote "Husbands, love your wives as your own flesh" right from the Bible is telling in that the way women were treated back then is wrong and men need to do better and treat women as equals. Treat them as you would treat yourself."

Actually, there are answers in the Bible to every issue in today's society... you just have to look. As for the computer and video game time kids should have, we're told in the Bible that everything we do should be to our benefit AND God's glory... meaning if it's detrimental to our health (mental, physical, spiritual...) or disobeys one of God's commandments (do not steal, lie, cheat...) we are not to do them. And we're also told to use our time wisely and not to waste it. That applies to everything in our daily lives, not just certain areas.

The Bible says it's wrong to BE drunk, so obviously it's wrong to do anything drunk, even drive.

Women were supposed to be treated as equals in the Bible as well, and child labour was wrong back then too. (That depends a great deal on your definition of "child labour" as opposed to mine... I don't consider doing household chores child labour.)

You're reading that text ("Husbands, love your wives as your own flesh.") wrong... it actually emphasizes the fact that women are created equal and are to be treated as equal to men. The point being made in that text and the section it is from is basically how you said it should be: "Treat them as you would treat yourself."... or, love them like you love your own body. You care for your body (or are supposed to) and nourish it physically, mentally, and spiritually... the Bible says you are to do that equally as much/as well for your wife. And fathers are to do that for their daughters, as they are equal individuals as well.

Christian,
I don't know if you are a follower of Pearl or not, you seem to be a good person and truly believe in the Bible. I think it is wonderful that you have such faith. Christian, some of the things that we as the viewers say are just dumb and down right ridiculous. How does BT BIG, know if Pearl is Senile? I posted the other side that questions Pearl's Parent teachings. I am not saying you do this, I was just showing you what he wrote in his book.
Michael and Debi Pearl published a book in 1994 entitled To Train up a Child to yield happy and obedient children. This book is not about discipline, nor problem children. Beth Jones' review states the Pearls advocate tempting an infant by putting an appealing object within reach, when the child reaches for the object, the parents lash the child.

The suggested switch for a four-month-old infant is a branch twelve inches long. Rulers, belts and tree branches are recommended for older children. Cally Tyrol advises the Pearls set up an antagonistic relationship between parent and child. The child’s will must be subdued and conquered and the only way to accomplish this, it seems, is through switching. There are many many pro-spanking parents who feel that the Pearls’ methods are extreme

Sandy,
You never come to a conclusion. I don't know if your sticking up for the Pearls or against their teachings or just rambling on after disagreeing with me that Michael Pearl is senile.

Christian,
Ah. So you do come to somewhat the same conslusions as I do. Yes, I firmly agree. The things in the Bible that God does not want us to do are self-destructive & destructive to society and therefore in direct opposition to God's creation. Unfortunately, throughout history, the Bible has also been used as a method of societal control by kingdoms and monarchies which found it hard to control their citizens spread far and wide through a single head of government. So they instilled the fear of everlasting damnation into people in order to control them.

You seem to stick up for the fact that Michael Pearl is following the Bible with his teachings and not his own twisted view of a correct family unit, with him very suspiciously the all-knowing not to ever be questioned, first in command.

Let's say you are correct about him and he is fully mentally normal and take it one step further and say that he fully understands the Bible and his teachings come directly from it.

That women are "Created to Be His Help-Meet" (born for the purpose of being a wife to a man.)

That you should "Train" your child to be dutiful, obedient, and happy (I don't know about training to be happy-happiness always comes from within, you can "train" yourself to engage in behaviors that result in your own happines but I doubt that someone else can do that for you. He is training children to give the appearance of being happy for his personal benefit.)

If you assume that Michael Pearl knows full well what he saying and who he is saying it to, then he must surely be aquainted with who his followers are. The financially and intellectually challenged. The man who has a family and feels inadequate by todays standards of obession with money and technology, etc. Michael Pearl's teachings give the man respect, authority, etc. by placing him above other family members (similar to the societal norms of strict muslims where the women don't have any rights.)

His methods of "Child Training" are simplistic association of adverse stimuli (switch/pain) with a certain behavior (not obeying a command) based purely on simple science, not the Bible.

Given that, he should know better than to give out information like he does to morons. I'm sure deep down, he knows he is a fraud. (I'm for crazy, I don't think he would do such a terrible thing, I think he truly believes his own craziness.)

We have a long history of humans taking the Bible and interpreting it and then acting on what they think it says with very devastating results to humans. We should take heed of this fact.

I am a woman and here is what qualifies me to comment on abortion and what a woman goes through with her body.I am a mother of 3 surviving children one miscarriage and the loss of 2 precious boys in the beginning of the second trimester of my pregnancy. I delivered these 2 beautiful boys, they were perfect, fully developed little boys. So to those of you who support abortion, I am a woman and I am against it. I saw these babies and they looked just like my full-term healthy babies. One of them even looked just like his older brother. DOn't believe the lies that they are not a baby just tissue till they are born. It is a human life and it is murder to take them. If it is murder to commit a robbery and shoot a pregnant woman and both mother and baby die Why is it not when a Dr. rips them from the perfect invironment designed just for them to grow in. Please consider this before you have an abortion.

On the subject of this article, people like these 2 make Christians and homeschoolers look bad. Please don't judge all of us based on them. We are just normal people who have chosen to follow Jesus and teach our children at home.

christian, please read this story
http://www.newsobserver.com/2006/04/30/73811/parenting-guru-is-revered-reviled.html

it's got both good and bad about the pearls.

i want to direct your attention to the right side of the page on the link provided. it states the following:

PROBLEM Baby bites during breast-feeding

SOLUTION Pull baby's hair

PROBLEM Boy is a crybaby

SOLUTION "When he begins to scream his defiance or hurt, just ignore him. ... If he demands attention to a supposed wound, then reach in your purse, pull out a terrible tasting herbal potion and give him a spoonful. After he gets through gagging on the vitamin and mineral supplement, tell him that he is now completely healed, and invite him to come back for another dose if he again gets hurt."

PROBLEM Rebellious child who runs from discipline

SOLUTION "If you have to sit on him to spank him, then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he has surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring, and are unmoved by his wailing. Hold the resisting child in a helpless position for several minutes, or until he is totally surrendered. Accept no conditions for surrender -- no compromise. You are to rule over him as a benevolent sovereign. Your word is final."

PROBLEM Child whines to mother after father disciplines him

SOLUTION Mother must go over to child and "give him one or two licks on his exposed ankles or legs while commanding, 'Obey your father.' "

PROBLEM Child lies

SOLUTION Switch him 10 times at noon each day. Make him pick the tree branch.

PROBLEM What to use for a rod

SOLUTION For babies under age 1, a footlong willow branch shaved of its knots. For older kids, plastic plumbing pipe, a 3-foot shrub cutting or a belt to help turn a child "back from the road to hell."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
pull an infants hair while breastfeeding if they bite?

switch a kid ten times at noon each day for lying...but when does the parent stop doing this? a week, a month, when the kid turns 21?

or when the switch isn't getting enough response, go on and get yourself a plumbing pipe to wail on the kid with?

sorry, if the pearls are going to publish explicit instructions on the proper way to beat your child, then they should at least put the restraints down on paper for the ill advised as well.

I grew up in one of these EXTREME Christian religious households. My mom beat the crap outta me with switches, belts, extension cords, broom handles, and any other solid rod-like object she could hold and swing. I've been held down, had/have whelps on my body, my testicles, my penis, my face (from extreme beatings) - still have whelps on my back that will NEVER heal up.

I got beat becuz of bad grades at school. Not-so-good grades at school. Talking back. Not speaking clearly enough. Lying. Stealing. masturbating.

I got beat from the church pastor. I got beat from other men in the congregation (mom was single parent). I got beat many many times.

And guess what? Now that i am in my 30's? I hate my mom :-). No, seriously. I may not hate her, but I don't love her. None of my issues were resolved. The beatings didnt make me more 'loving' or 'obedient' to her. They did make me extremely better at being crafty, devious, and clever as to stay outta trouble and avoid beatings.

I have since eschewed any form of the madness that is organized religion and I have a VERY stable and loving family of my own. I do employ light forms of discipline on my children. But the chastisments fit the transgressions. I have yet to beat my children black n blue. And guess what? LO AND BEHOLD - must issues can be resolved by a stern talking! My children are smart, very intelligent, well-mannered, great in school, and DO NOT attend church all week, all year.

I STILL believe in Christianity - but I piss on man-made organized teachings. And child-abusers like these should not be allowed to HIDE behind their 'religious' beliefs!!

Pete Kotz said:

Wow, powerful story, Jay. Thanks for sharing it with us. Hope for the best to you and yours.

Snaps for Jay, glad you came out of that in one piece!

Jay,
What happened to your father?

RE: MCR comment about Christianity--- Some of the best educated minds our in our history adopted Christianity, not because they were "weak-minded", but because in their efforts to disprove it, they became convinced of it. C.S. Lewis, Paul C. Vitz, are but two that come readily to mind.

Evil exists across all groups, be it church, doctors, physicians, lawyers, politicians, teachers, counselors.... each has it's horror stories of abuse and evil perpetrated upon other individuals, and children.

The point is that weak, sick, ill, evil people do not observe boundaries and are are found in every walk of life, every endeavor. They are not a RESULT of Christianity, nor am I convinced that Christianity draw more than other areas of society.

Obedience to authority is always a dangerous road to go down. It is to give another's morals, values, judgements, perceptions, precedence over ones own. You can be a Christian without being a mindless idiot.

We live in a culture that has glorified violence as entertainment, we have a political system that perpetuates hate and animosity of opposing viewpoints, we have "sexualized" children (try to buy some kids clothes these days and see whats on the market!)

Now these two parents are evil, any way you look at it. Evil. It was never about raising or caring for children, it was about power and control over another because they lacked it over themselves.... evil.

I understand Jay's not loving his mother, I would even understand more hostile feelings, and I applaud that he had the courage to take his life down a different path.

And for parents who are convicted of abusing children, no second chances... mandatory sterilization. They've demonstrated a propensity to disregard the suffering and pain inflicted on another. It was, in the end, a choice they made. Now we have a choice to make about addressing it.

It's funny how most anti-Christians oppose the death penalty, until some "Christians" commit murder. So where's your murders' rights rhetorical crap now? I'm a Bible-believing Christian who believes every word in the King James Bible, including the part that commands whipping childrens' backsides when they need it. However, the Bible also tells parents, "Provoke not your children to wrath." These people need the chair, both of them. The shedding of innocent blood deserves the shedding of guilty blood.

Jacob,
I am surprised at you. What does the bible say about not forgiving people? It's against it. You think R special and without sin? I think that is a bad road to go down and I think it separates you from the human being you R, unless you R something else.

These two "parents" should be shown not a single ounce of mercy. Chances are that they will be thrown in prison for many decades while our American tax dollars go towards "rehabilitating" them. We can save a lot of money by slowly torturing and killing them in a far worse way than they did to their child.

For starters, I say strap them down in a dentist's chair and tape their eyes opened. Then use a dentist's drill (without novicane of course) and drill into the root of each tooth in their heads. Use a dental pick to hook into the nerve and jiggle it around for a few hours per tooth.

Afterwards, we could move onto using a pair of pliers to dislocate and wrench loose their fingers at each joint and knuckle. Then pulverize them with a hammer.

Next, possibly a searingly hot iron would be in store for them, but not so hot as to carteurize the nerves. From there we can move onto the flaying of their skin with a semi-sharp knife and finally impalement diagonally through the hips and then left outside exposed to the elements.

Of course we would have to keep them well hydrated with saliene solution and use adrenaline and other drugs to keep them alive and alert during this greuling process, but in the end I think that they will feel sorry for what they had done.

they should be beaten and tortured just like they did to their adopted children... those parents are a wothless waste of flesh...

"The Right Way"

Possibly you may want to get out of the house someday. Looks like you have been watching too much TV & Fear.com., You may want to ask Sandy, mcr, & marie heck about the correct drug treatment for your chemical imbalances. It must certainly be you. Your chemicals need correcting. The world is obviously correct, not you.

nogreaterjoy.org Michael or Debi Pearl or anything related to them absolutly do NOT teach this sort of punishment or beating. "prescribed by a Tn evangelist" is a absolute untruth. The parents who beat their children had to be unstable mentally. what they did was wrong, using the Pearls book is just shifting blame.

i look at my son tonight as he is sleeping and wonder how anyone could ever hurt their children. to think of what these poor children went through makes me sick to my stomache. our children trust us to always take care of them and protect them. those children must have felt all alone in this world. but one of the things that i think of most is.. i have met this family. i live in chico, ca which is about 20 mins from where this family lived. i worked in a family doctors office and i remember the entire family coming in a few years ago right after they adopted the 3 kids. i personally checked them in at the front desk. i remember the youngest of the adopted children was not even old enough to walk yet and they had her strapped into a stroller the whole time. she cried for a majority of the visit and i remember thinking how weird it was that never once did that mother or anyone else try and console that baby. as a mother the first thing u want to do is comfort your baby. it was just very weird to me. i guess first instincts are right. my thought and prayers are with these children.

this is so freakin messed up i think beating a child to death is bad after hearing this i started to cry.