Reader: There's No Defending Rev. Michael Pearl, Who Advocates Hitting Babies

Spanking is appropriate for children 2 to 6 years of age. Abut the time the enter kindergarten it probably is losing its' effectiveness. For older children a cold shoulder could work even better as people are social animals. It would be extremely counterproductive to spank a middle-school student. If fact it would just be dumb. Hitting a a highschool student would just be asking to get your own as beat.
In this case these children can't even walk, he is a moron.

Steve - you forgot one critical phrase in your post.

"...in my opinion...".

The mounting evidence shows that physical punishment does little to deter bad behavior, and does much to contribute to future problems.

A lengthy study by E.T. Gershoff, concludes:

"While it may not be harmful when used in a non-abusive manner by 94% of parents, as Baumrind believes, that does not mean that it is helpful. Given that violence against adults, animals, and criminals to change their behavior is illegal, Gershoff questions why violence against children to change their behavior should be socially sanctioned, especially without clear and compelling evidence that it results in desirable outcomes."

http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/disc.htm

Get with the times.

Rev. Michael Pearl-you will get whats coming to you one way or another.

And folks wonder why I'm an atheist.

Well Tim, correlation does not imply causation. I think that the people who would have to resort to spanking their kids (angry parents, disobediant kids) would end up with fucked up kids whether they actually spanked them or not. It's kind of like how ice cream sales shoot up at the same time drowning deaths peak. Ice cream doesn't cause drowning, but there's a third variable (summer, bad genes) that's correlated with the other two.

David - thank you for a intelligent comment on my post! You're one of the people that can probably understand that disagreement doesn't mean we have to dislike each other.

That being said, I disagree with you, as that while I only posted one link to one research report, and I'm not going to take the time to find others, I find your analogy a bit off, in that ice cream and downing deaths have little to do with each other, violence begats violence. If your child learns that the way you handle a misdeed is by striking, what do you think that child is going to think when they grow up?

I do agree that bad parenting is going to be the over-riding factor anyway you slice it though...

Hitting any child under the age of 6 is just wrong!!!

William Mancock,
Actually, spanking is supposed to be for kids under 6 who are not verbal. Once a kid is verbal, there is no need to spank anymore. Spanking and physical punishment is supposed to be used adverse to danger, ie., you should spank your child to keep them from running away from you in a parking lot or into the street. They should learn adverse feelings in response to danger. (ie, I feel pain when I do something life-threatening) Only b/c they do not understand the dangers.

rocki,

I totally agree with you, actually. There's nothing wrong with physical punishment of a child under the age of 6, I'm just say that you shouldn't hit them. The use of scalding water or temporary suffocation is better, because it distances the parent from the punishment. Hitting a child is much too personal, and can cause the child to have animosity toward the that parent.

I spank my 4 year old daughter, that doesn't mean I'm a bad mom. I'm not saying I do it every time she gets into trouble, but I do it when it needs to be done. I find that one or two swift whacks on the butt with my hand is usually enough shock value to get it into her head that I'm not joking. When time-outs, taking things away, and trying to talk to her don't work, she gets spanked. I don't resort to spanking at first, but I'm not above using it either. My parents spanked us when we were little. Not all the time, but when we deserved it, much like how I discipline my daughter. we knew that if we acted up and got the "look", we either stopped or we were gettin a spanking. And the majority of the time it worked. Even now when my parents give my daughter and my 3 neices the look, I get scared!

Spanking does not equal abuse. What these sick freaks did was abuse, not punishment or spanking. I have even asked a police officer where I live about the laws on spanking. He said as long as its not done in a fit of anger or rage, a hand is used to do the spanking, and it doesn't leave scars, marks, welts, or bruises it cannot be classified as abuse.

I don't think there's anything wrong with spanking kids. I think too many people are afraid to do it nowadays. I grew up with an abusive mother, not crazy abusive, but when she got mad she went WAY overboard (only on me, not my sister). There was a time she threw a steaming bowl of mashed potatoes across the dinner table at me (I tend to laugh when I say that out loud, but that was actually pretty traumatic) and I think it was the same night that she threw her Pepsi on me for the first time, as well. Usually it was over something really stupid, like wanting me to come home, but not telling me so, so when I walked in I got thrown against a dresser and the side of my knee slit open...but she still made me go to Girl Scouts that night and I limped around and cried the whole time. Then in middle school, we moved into a new house and by the time we moved out 4 years later, the frame to my bedroom door had splashes of Pepsi and lemonade on it from all the times she threw a drink in my face when I opened my bedroom door.

There are people who get spanked as kids and they look back and say, "Ya know, I understand why they did it. I deserved it." I've never said that about myself. The last time my mom ever hit me was when I was 12 and started hitting back. Despite all that, I love my mom, but when I think of the things she did to me when I was young, it's hard to understand what I did to deserve such horrible treatment. It wasn't teaching me anything other than to scream and hit when I'm mad, which I've actually had to work on. I'm terrified of having my own kids, as a result.

Mcr I agree with you as a parent my kid has threatened me with CPS or the Police if I hit him. He is bigger than I am so I can't do much. My father was also abusive growing up. There is a difference between parents punishment and loving parents spanking their kids. I am sorry to hear about your mother you didn't deserve that, no child does. After you finish school and find the right person you will make a good mother you re a smart person.

Mcr,

Your right. I think a lot of parents are afraid to spank their kids anymore. I'm not. As I said before my parents (mom/step-dad) spanked me. While my biological father/ex-step-mom abused me. I also know the difference between punishment and abuse. And I look back on the times I got spanked and I know I deserved it. But I don't think I deserved the abuse I suffered at the hands of my father and his ex-wife.

I'm sorry to hear about how you were treated. And I know exactly how you feel about the being terrified of having your own kids. I was too. Not just because of the abuse I suffered, but because of the other thing we both have in common. Both are a terrifying to think about passing onto your child. All I have to say to you is this: make sure your ready, and when you are, love them to the best of your abilities and you will be a good mommy! The cycle of abuse will be stopped with me and my daughter. I will never abuse her because I still remember my father beating me when I was 2 and every beating after that.

Thanks, dui. :)

I threatened my mom with calling HRS, but she told me that if I did that, they'd come take me away and make me "live with a poor black family." So...yeah...

The time she slit my knee open on the dresser, I actually got sent to the nurse at school and she suspected something and asked me about it, but I stuck to the ol' "I fell off my bike" story because I was afraid of what would happen.

Mcr we will probably get in trouble for trolling. When I was 7 my father was mad at my sister as usual (he beat her all the time) he throw a plate at her and it hit me in the mouth I could not open my mouth or eat for a week. My mom lied to the doctor and dentist, she told them my brothers were throwing a trash can lid and it hit me.

Nah, we're good. I think exchanging stories of abuse on a thread about abuse is fine.

I'm SO sorry to hear about the plate incident, though! My goodness...things like that always stay with you and it's hard to forgive. I'm lucky nothing that bad ever was ever inflicted upon me. The slit knee was pretty much the worst of it. My mom didn't know about my knee until days later when she happened to notice how terrible it looked and gasped and said "Oh my gosh! What happened to your knee?!?!?!" and I just burst into tears and said "It's from you!" and she apologized a whole bunch and said her dad had done something similar to her and she felt so bad...cut to present day, she won't even admit that ever happened. In fact, about a year later we started going to counseling and she denied pretty much everything she ever did and still does to this day. It's hard to move on and get closure when someone who is still very much a part of your life won't admit what they did.

Yeah I can relate dear dad says he never touched anyone in my family. My sister still talks to him. I don't hate him I just don't have anything to do with him. He didn't hit me, he molested me. That's BS time heels all things, you never forget. MCR are you (Alexa) if you are that explains a lot. She is pretty intelligent and well spoken. Sandy told me that she thought she worked for this website. I have posted on here before I got my computer. I would post on Sandy's computer. Poor girl everyone did. I have posted and read on TCR for a few months under my son's e-mail name. Anyway I have talked to you before under a different name. No WOW Not CC that's Sandy's daughter, Okay. MCR Just thought I would tell you my nephew is going to chatmen for his PHD. (I think that's how you spell it)

Oh, cool about your nephew. Actually, I only found this site back in December and the only name I comment under is mcr (my initials).

This site is much like a Patton Oswalt (my favorite comedian) joke about open mic night at comedy clubs and the lunatics that come in off the street..."You mean there's a microphone attached to speakers and I can talk into it?!?! Oooh...the demon monkeys in my hair will have their messenger!" LOL...so many crazy people on this site saying crazy things.

Not to jump into your discussion, but I know what you gusy are talking about! My biological father beat me and my sister when she was 4 and I was 2. After that though, it seemed I was the one who got the phsyical abuse from him and my ex-step-mom. We both still got the verbal and mental abuse, but only I got the phsyical abuse. There are too many horrible stories to tell! It would surely be a long post if I went into some of it. To this day, my father won't talk about it. My gandma, his mom, won't even let me mention it whenever she talks about how good of a dad he was.

Me and my sister are like you and yours, dui. Over the years we have traded back and forth. A few years she will defend him and I won't want anything to do with him, and then I will defend him and she won't want anything to do with him. Lately, it seems she will defend him whenever I say anything bad about him. I don't think she talks to him, but still gives me a look and calls me by my first full name when I say something bad about him. She didn't say it out loud, but I kinda felt she was a little upset that I didn't have him walk me down the aisle at my wedding. I only had my dad (step-dad) walk me down the aisle. She had both of them do it at her wedding and I think she thought I should have too. But the fact is he is too unpredictable and I didn't know if he would show up. When he did, I didn't even know who he was! I hadn't seen or talked to him in almost two years. I haven't seen or talked to him since my wedding, and that was in July.

Dui, I have often wondered where alexa went too. When I started coming here in october, I think, she was a lot like mcr. She didn't care what anyone thought about her or her opinions and she was very well spoken. And for the most part, I completely agreed with what she said. I don't however think she worked here. I think its a lot like what's going on between rocki and mcr why people thought she worked here. Some of Sandy's and Jane Wilder and others comments were taken off, but not alexa's. But the same is true about me, and I know I don't work for TCR! I would like too, but I don't!

Marie,
I feel the same way about my step-dad, he past away a year ago in November. I sure miss and love him. He was a great man and a good father. He helped me make it past the crap I had gone through as a child. Marie are you and your sister alike? My sister and I are a lot alike. We both have short tempers that get us into trouble.

Dui,

My step-dad is my dad. Maybe not biologically, but in my eyes he is. He is a recovering alcoholic/drug user and even when he was drunk or stoned, he was still there. He never treated us any different from my brother, who is his only biological child. My mom and him got married when I was 4, but he has been in my life since I was about 2 or 3. After our father beat us, my mom left him and came back to the states. He was in the army at the time and we were stationed in Germany, that's also when he was cheating on my mom left and right and met his ex-wife. Not long after that, one of his brother's reintroduced them (they had known each other a little when they were little) and they started dating and had my brother and got married 3 days after my 4th birthday. He taught me how to tie my shoes, talk better, ride a bike. He was there my first day of school, my first dance, my first boyfriend, all 3 prom's I went to. He was there the day my daughter was born and walked me down the aisle when I got married. I love him as much as a daughter could a daddy.

I haven't ever admitted this on here, but I will now. My husband is not my daughter's biological father. I thought I was in "love" with her father, but he turned out to be something completely different than what I thought he was. He was still married (a fact 2 of my closest friends lied to me about) and had no intentions of divorcing his wife. I found out and left him a week later. I found out 6 months later (yes I know it sounds weird, but it does happen!!!!) that I was pregnant. I was told I probably wouldn't be able to have children, but I still took every precaution to make sure it didn't happen. Because of my bipolar, I never really wanted to have children. I didn't want to chance my child(ren) having to live with this hell like I do everyday. But, I guess God had other plans for me! It was extremely hard. It was made even more hard by the fact her father said she wasn't his. She will be 5 in june and he still has never seen her but thanks to a DNA test, I can say with absolute honesty that he is her biological father.

I met my husband about 2 years ago. I was afraid at first. You never know who you can trust anymore and I was bound and determined to do everything in my power to keep her from gettin hurt in any way. I kept them from meetin for a while, but when they did meet, it was awesome! My daughter went right to him and never left his side for a week, except when he was at work! Every night she would fall asleep in his arms and every morning she would ask for him, instead of mommy! After a few months, she just said one day, "When is daddy coming home?" It nearly melted my heart! From that day on, he has been daddy. He is the only daddy she has ever known and will probably be the only daddy she ever does know.

When I found out I was pregnant with her, I hoped and prayed that I would find her a daddy like mine. One who, even tough she wasn't biologically his, but would never treat her any different, like my "step" dad did with me. It took 2 years, but we found him!

Sorry to go a little of subject, but I felt I had to give a little background info as to why I feel the way I do about my dad. Any man or woman can be a father or a mother, but it takes a very special person to be a daddy/mommy to someone else's children. My dad never treated me any different, and neither has my husband. Yes, he wants a biological child (and we are trying!) but he says he would be just as happy if we never have any others. Marlie, our daughter, would just be spoiled rotten as an only child!

Yes, me and my sister are a lot alike, dui! We both speak our minds, even when we shouldn't! And that happens a lot with eachother! But she is just about the best friend I have ever had and I love her to death! One time when my father and ex-step-mom were beating me, they blocked the door and wouldn't let her get to me. I heard her shouting at them to stop and let her in. After they were done, they blocked my door so she couldn't get in and I coudnt get out. I layed on the floor in front of the door and she layed on the other side. I heard her crying and saying she was sorry and she loved me. She has protected me ever since that day.

Like I said, I'm sorry I went off subject a little! And dui, I'm sorry about your dad passing away. My dad has come close and I can't imagine what my life would be like without him or my mom.

When my daughter was little, we're talking 2 to 4 here, I used mild spankings when she was in danger. I smacked her hand to keep her from sticking her fingers in a lit candle. I don't think it was wrong because the light smack on her hand hurt a hell of a lot less than a burn would have. I only had to spank her once for her to know that you don't pull away and try to run in a parking lot. I didn't spank her nearly as much as I was spanked as a child. I always say I got my ass beat as a child and I turned out just fine. My parents did tend to go overboard though. My mother was the Jedi master of the wooden spoon and boy was she lethal with a shoe. Eddie Murphy did a bit on moms throwing shoes years ago and it reminded me of my mother. She could hit us with a thrown shoe from what seemed like miles away.

Going way overboard and/or spanking infants is just wrong. There is indeed a fine line between spanking and abuse and I know many who cross it. A 6 month old child should never, in my opinion, be spanked. What could a 6 month old possibly do to even make spanking necessary? I have never advocated nor supported using anything other than a hand to spank a child. I don't feel adults need to use weapons to spank children.

Amber -- I totally agree with you. And man...that wooden spoon! My mom wasn't a fan, but my grandmother was. I would hear the kitchen drawer open and find some place to hide. Never worked, though...haha.

The fact that this guy is not in the looney bin where he should be is incredible and that he was gotten these child abuse manuals published. What kind of company publishes this stuff? He is a psycho that's not interested in obedience to God, but in obedience to Michael Pearl. Sick. He preys on the stupid and these people are too dumb to know how crazy he is. His whole premise to beat kids and women and kids to be submissive is out of wack with even the Bible. Eve has been running the show since Genesis. I don't know if that's what God intended but that's what he got. I have yet to see an international boycott on women by men.

marie heck,
Spanking is way different than some nut job psycho who would go out and buy a special instrument to beat their kids into submission with. Totally different.

The rod was used to guide wayward sheep back to the flock, not to beat the animals into submission.

truth, he is likely self published. anyone can go to a printing company and print books. the printing company doesn't read everything they print. as long as there are no pornographic images that are evident, and no copyright laws that are evidently broken, printers don't care what they print. it's just another paying job.

this guy needs to be put in check somehow. he's affected the lives of at least two children to the point they are 6 feet under due to death by beatings he advocates. i really hope they pull him into this case too. it's bad enough that there are abusers out there, this guy gives them the information to do it and justifies their actions with use of the bible.

Yes,
It's a very scary thought that there are 1 million copies of this since 1994 being read by obviously the dumbest people around like the Schatz's who don't seem to have a shred of intelligence or commone sense. How many children out there are sufferring this nightmare right now? There will be terrible mental consequences for these kids once these books are removed from print which is hopefully soon. Seriously, these are books are specific instructions on how to commit a crime and hide it from the authorities.

So Jadensmokes,
You're saying that I could write a book containing specific instruction on how to physically abuse and assault, say Michael Pearl, and I could not get into any trouble unless it was formed in the manner of a threat towards him? If so, I might just do that!!! I might just write "How to Train Up a Minister" or "How to Train Up a Minister's Wife" Nice and graphic. I think that would be some reading material that he may really get a rise out of.

Nobody will get to rape me. You don't say my words.

not really, truth...you can print anything you want, we have freedom of press in the usa. however if you are self published, you are responsible for what you publish. if you were to defame, or break another law against someone then you alone suffer the consequences as both author and publisher.

in light of the pearl's publishing their books, if they are both publisher and author, the responsibility for what is published is theirs alone. this is why i think suit can be brought against them as abetting in this and the other murder at the hands of a follower.

rocki, you been drinking the punch, hun?

Always drinking the punch until the world conforms to what I want. I guess we all have problems. At least mine only end in not getting stuff done. Not murder. Drink more punch, it has 100% daily vitamin C.

I'm really surprised at you. You think this guy will really get busted?

A suit can and should be brought against Pearl. I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the books or the publisher, but there was a publishing house that was releasing books about how to get away with murder, build bombs, etc. starting in the late 70's/early 80's, and after more than one person used their books as a how-to-guide for carrying out murders of their own, the CEO ended up spending time in prison and had to pay a butt-load of cash to the victim's families.

If anyone has taken the time to read his website, he has admitted to sitting on the head of a 7 year old boy (him at 230 lbs.) That has to be some type of abuse, needless to say it is risky to sit on the head of a child. I may be drinking punch, but I have made at least 18 calls to report this to TN CPS and I cannot as of yet make a report. Just goes to show poor little Lydia will become a statistic. Her cries for mercy will never be heard after this week. What a shame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSODkdm2F6g

jadensmokes,

I was just happening to watch "Pirates of the Carribean" where Johnny Depp says, "Elizabeth, those clothes don't become you at all. It's a dress or nothing. I just happen to have no dress in my cabin." I'll bet you a million to one, no one but me caught that.

When we were children, most of us got spankings for doing something wrong, like breaking a window or maybe raising our voice to our mother or father for example. But did we do it again afterwards? Most of us didn't, because we feared the belt, switch or god forbid the paddle. It's not just the pain that gets to us, it's the fear of the pain itself. Fear is a great parenting tool and if used right, you never have to spank, only threaten to spank.

The more I read about this story the more my heart breaks. This is so awful. I just want to cry every time I read something new.
I am glad more and more people are speaking out about this.
I just wanted to point everyone to an excellent response to Pearl’s awful “laughter” that Vyckie Garrison at No Longer Quivering has written.
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/03/03/no-laughing-matter-michael-pearls-callous-response-to-critics/#more-4517

Unfortunately religious zealots end up talking people into doing some pretty stupid stuff ala Jonestown and Waco. When will people ever stop listening to these nuts!?!?

Big, grown adults hitting little children -- which is what spanking is -- is wrong. Period. It's lazy, ignorant, trailer-trash behavior and the only thing it accomplishes is teaching children not to get caught and to grow up thinking hitting is the way to resolve issues.

You can always spot the kids who are hit at home -- they're the ones who come to your house and run crazy, doing all the things they know they'll get hit for at their own homes. Then, when their parents show up, they do that creepy thing where they go all quiet and watchful, looking for the cues that tell them their parents are about to hit them again.

Lydia Schatz was murdered by her parents, who followed the instructions of Debi and Michael Pearl to a tee -- they used the torture instrument recommended by the Pearls, they used the method -- one parent sitting on her, one beating her, the parents switching places when their arms got tired, and they beat her 'til she had "no breath to complain" (Michael Pearl's exact words).

This is not an isolated incident. This is Michael and Debi Pearl's followers doing EXACTLY what they were told to do.

They probably told themselves it was just "spanking", too.

Right.

Raise your hand to a child and you're a monster. Justify it, and you're evil. Promote it and encourage others to do it and you're Satan.

You hit (spank, paddle, whatever...) your kids and I find out about it, I call CPS. You hit and I find out about it, I know what you are and will treat you accordingly.

fate,
Since you are using my name, please extrapolate. I think one of our famous presidents said (if you are a US citizen) "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" Who was that masked man? Bet you, you don't know, dummy on drugs.

FIRST-- Have any you, who posted your views on this subject, actually sat down and read the Training Up series? If you have not, I must question your authority on Mr. Pearl's philosophy. SECOND-- assuming you have read the Training up series, I am not certain as to how anyone is able to misrepresent, misinterpret, or manipulate the content contained in the books in question. I do not profess to be an expert, however, I most certainly have read the Training Up series among other literature created by the Pearls. I have never, not once, observed any form of abuse.

I am going to start by addressing the personal attacks from people who feel they are educated, knowledgeable, and virtuous enough to attack another persons intelligence, morale, or opinion. I don't know about you... but in my youth, I was taught that insults are a direct reflection of the person declaring them. Perhaps, they may have not had parents who trained them up to exhibit courtesy and permit others to form an opinion. Moreover, permit others to have an opinion and LISTEN before speaking or making a stand. Furthermore, why a person insults another is mere elementary text book answers. Why do people feel the need to insult? Most often it is merely a result of insecurity, jealousy, perhaps feeling threatened, and fear. If one is trained up to be confident and sustain maturity, one would not feel the need to attack or insult.

If we are to take Mr. Pearl's material into context, we clearly see that he is merely describing "how" to train up a child. Never once have I read where he advocated beatings or abuse... actually quite on the contrary. The methods described in Pearl's book are VERY clear as to what appropriate discipline is.

I am not here to defend Mr. Pearl's book because quite frankly, it defends itself! It certainly is apparent that most have not read his books or perhaps have read pieces of the books and those small tid-bit's have been distorted.

If you don't believe me... read them yourself. Perhaps, you will think twice before hopping on a band wagon. Many of you have unruly children... why?

I don't know about you but I care for children and find it important to give them a fair shot in life. If there is anything in my power to be a fit parent, to guide, nurture, train, and love them properly. And if I wasn't fortunate enough to have learned it by merely my own upbringing. I will research and learn what I am able. In addition, common sense dictates that training up a child should begin BEFORE any problems arise. Furthermore, just about any professional will tell you that the most important development years are from 0-6 yrs. old.
Would you rather prevent problems or fix them? Well, if you would like to prevent them then perhaps we should start training them in the way they should go at early ages. However, a minor slap on the hand is far from abuse. Regardless, if a switch is involved, or not. Perhaps, the book has good information to actually HELP in child rearing. In closing... have you honestly read Mr. Pearl's Training UP series?