Angela Sanford, Self-Proclaimed Witch, Stabs Joel Leyva to Death in What May Be Ritual Killing

• Well, she's the mother of my first child & she's delusional about all aspects of her religion. I only hope I can make contact with my daughter now that her mom is gone & I worry what effect this will have on her.

• There seems to be alot of debate over this persons religious beliefs in connection with this crime. What happens if no murder motive is found? I think the chief of police is an imbecile for even announcing this as a motive without first investigating it privately. Does anyone not think that maybe in her mind she thought she was being assaulted? If she is unstable as it appears who knows what she might have thought if she was tied up against her will, if that's what really happened. Has a polygraph test been done? Remember this is America and she hasn't been found guilty yet. What female wouldn't have done everything possible if they thought they were going to be raped. Not accusing the deceased, but no motive has been found yet. Either way I think a normal investigation looking for physical evidence is in order before creating a circus over witchcraft.

• With what little information is provided on this matter, Whether or not the killing was premeditated, and symbolic, could be anyones Guess. 13 could have significant meaning if it Was ritualistic, and it mentioned they were at a Wiccan festival together. (which explains the date) It dosent really explain however if she Intended to kill him in a ritualistic fashion beforehand, or If she was simply scared/paranoid/delusional/freaked out and murder became the side effect. (making the 13 overkill comitted in panic or rage and not the consequence of honoring any particular ritualism) Add this to the fact both were drinking, and compare it to knowledge that alcohol in excess often dimishes the usual human capacity for reasoning... and you have a mystery. (Since the rape claim was said to be false I chose to leave out the possibility of retaliation against a rape offender, but Paranoid delusion might fit...especially with the alcohol factor empowering a delusion)

• Melanie, I think you're missing the entire point of scholarly writing. You can check their sources for yourself. In the case of the websites I posted, all you need to do is check the facts of the cases to know the crimes were committed as described.

• Duck, the main problem is that you TRUST a scholar. Thats stupid b/c you don't even know them and no matter how "good" they make things sound, they could be making things up and you'd have no idea. "I read it on the internet, it MUST be true!"

• ...and still, basically the only case anyone will ever cite is McMartin. The myth that the so-called hysteria led to several wrongful convictions becomes popularized by people like yourself who don't back it up by anything other than denials in the face of solid proof. And you think naming one case negates all the others? You will disregard the dozens of other cases from those websites that involved ritual abuse and ritual murder. The evidence and the facts of pretty much all those cases stand up as legitimate prosecutions. I cross checked many of them.

• Ah. It must have been one of those weird things software does and then never does again. We have similar issues at work. S'ok. I take back my shame on you. :) Shame on the software for being finicky. :)

• Sorry, Amber, that had to be a glitch of some sort, since we haven't had that "moderator approval" thing operative since last August. My apologies.

• The message I got when I posted said it had to be Moderated for approval, I'm paraphrasing there because I don't remember exactly the wording. Hell, I don't remember if it's Thursday or Friday today :) Either way it never showed up which may be a result of spam filters,but it said it had to be approved first. So, there ya go. Religious Tolerance is not slanted towards cults. First of all, give me definition of cult which is not widely disputed to work from because there isn't one. I am not a conspiracy theorist by nature, I am a person who looks at facts and digs a little deeper. The fact is, that in the 80's and early 90's there was a huge ruckus about these so called vast Satanic cults running around kidnapping, murdering and generally wreaking havoc all over the country. Some psychologists made quite a living out of "recovering" memories of terrible abuse from people with mental health issues. Innocent people were prosecuted and went to prison behind it. It was not a conspiracy, rather it was ignorance ruling the system. Mcmartin and a host of other famous abuse cases were proved to be false later. Many people came out of the woodwork to claim that they were involved in these "cults" but had since found Jesus. Of course, they made a lot of money too and they were also proved to be liars. Read "Satan's Silence" and "Selling Satan" for a start. You claim to be so unbiased, Duck, yet you want to paint with a very broad brush everyone who practices a religion which is not mainstream. That is not unbiased. You claim to have no religious notions, but it's clear you do. I'm off to work now. When I come back, I'll be happy to tell you why you're wrong about Satanism and what the actual belief behind "do what thou will" entails.

• I don't recall ever taking anything of yours down, Amber. But sometimes things get inadvertently caught in the spam filter -- usually through posting links, using certain syntax, or just using words often used by spammers. And sometimes things don't show up for any fathomable reason at all. As you know from your own computer, these things aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

• I've looked at that religioustolerance site plenty of times, and while I am supportive of religious tolerance so long as they follow our laws, the site seemed to have a very pro-cult bias to me that makes it too subjective a source of information. Also, I am making the point that I don't think anyone can prove that all Wiccans add the "Harm none" qualifier. I think it's a very fundamental similarity with satanism that is worthy of further dialogue. It might indicate nothing other than common sources/origins for their philosophies. What I take issue with is the idea that the existence of ritual abuse and murder needs to be proven at all at this point, it IS already proven. That or you have to convince us that ever prosecuted case of ritual murder on the website I posted above was some sort of conspiracy to prosecute innocent people, or that each and every one of them was based on some misinformation. I think it would be ridiculous to make such claims, and that anyone with any common sense who doesn't have a bias in favor of illegal cult activity can check the facts and draw that conclusion very easily. It happens, and groups of people who condone it naturally gravitate towards and congregate with one another. The question is what is the regularity of it and how can the people responsible for practicing it be investigated. Where are they, what are their affiliations? What scale does it occur on?

• In all fairness Amber I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion to this topic.Just in Pete's defense I think sometimes posts don't make it on here through no fault of Pete's. It's one thing if it appeared and then was removed, idk which is the case for you. BUt if it NEVER appeared at all it may not have been Pete sometimes they dissappear. Just speaking from experience.

• "Do What Thou Will" is only part of it, you've left off the "if it harm none" bit. Most likely intentionally since it doesn't fit your argument, neither does the threefold law which is also conveniently missing in your post. The fact is, you are so hung up on some notion that ritual murder and ritual abuse exist that you refuse to see anything to refute what you think. Fine, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It's not, however fact. You'll have to do much better than a page on Angelfire to impress logical people. Sure, you'll win over the reactionary types, but logical people don't as a rule take their information from Angelfire and the like. Could stay up all night poking holes in the arguments posted on that page, but it would be neither here nor there since you have your mind made up and clearly do not want any intelligent discourse on the subject. Plus, I need to do something productive. Try reading here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_intr.htm You keep harping on and on about the "I know a Wiccans." Did you miss my earlier post stating that I am a Pagan and have been for over 15 years now? I think that puts me in a position to speak about my religion and what it is and isn't and with all due respect, it certainly puts me in a position to know more about it than you do. On a side note, I'm a tad pissed at Pete right now. I don't run around calling people nasty names, I don't flame-bait and I don't bully yet he for some reason chose to "moderate" something I wrote last night. It did not get posted for what reason I do not know. Either he only wants trolls and the like or he doesn't want a rational, experienced voice in this discussion. Either way, shame on you, Pete.

• In all fairness, the internet is flooded with Wiccans going to great lengths to distance themselves from satanists. I wanted to raise the issue and see what other people have to say about it. If people are saying this woman is no a true Wiccan because she did this violent act, then I think it is valid to ask some of these questions. The crux of my argument is mainly the license individuals can take with "Do What Thou Wilt" types of philosophies. In that sense, I personally feel it is flawed in terms of spiritual value, because without furthr limitations, it doesn't account for anything but one's own self-indulgence. If a group of Wiccans recognize the possible subjectivity over whether an additional qualifier of "...but don't harm any living thing" is absolutely applied to all Wiccan practices, I think it is conceivable that some could be practicing ritual abuse or ritural murder. This woman could either have just been there because of her associations with Wiccans but herself be a satanist, or she could be a very wayward Wiccan. What I find doubtful is that the man was coincidentally stabbed 13 times the evening of the ritual she supposedly invited him to. It sounds planned to me, and I have my doubts that she acted alone if that is the case. I do believe that some satanists perform ritual murder, point blank.

• Kathy, I am providing this to support my point of view, which incidentally, is totally unbiased by a religious affiliation - of which, I have none. I trust the scholarship in this article. I am an educated person, I can read and find credible sources. When someone has actually gone to the trouble to footnote their research, you can check their facts for yourself! http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/pagan/HistoryWicca.html

• Here they all come out of the woodwork, the "I have a lot of friends who are Wiccan and they have a chip that makes them incapable of violence" peanut gallery. I stand behind what I said, Wicca can be applied to a very broad range of religious sects, including many satanists who identify as Wiccan. Look at the origins of both religious movements in America. They developed simultaneously with associations between them. That's not to say all Wiccans worship the satan. You'll also never be able to pin it on me that I am suggesting all Wiccans are violent, or would commit human sacrifice. Nor that even the majority of them are. Say what you will about me, but neither of those claims were made by me. But I find the defensiveness over this slice of truth, the there are religious sects in existance, in America, that commit murder and ritual child abuse telling. What I said above, and those two websites I posted speak for themselves, the "Satanic Hysteria of the 80s" is not responsible for a bunch of unjust prosecutions. You can argue a case or two in which very few people may have been wrongfully incarcerated, but those two websites I posted give you plenty of cases to challenge. So, go for it. Find 3 with questionable outcomes.

• Here's my $.02... I am an agnostic, raised as a Jehovah's Witness. Growing up, people would tell me that Witnesses worship the Devil or ask me if it's true that they sacrifice animals. Therefore, I'm used to hearing people make stupid and ignorant comments about religions they do not fully understand. I have several long time friends that practice Wicca and have never hurt, much less killed, a living thing (in fact, all but one are vegan!). The main tenet of Wicca, in fact, is "an it harm none, do what ye will." The only religion that practices sacrifice (animals only) nowadays are Voodoo and Santeria. When I lived in Miami, my neighbors practiced Santeria, so I got to witness a true sacrifice ritual. Knowing what a sacrifice ritual looks like, I can safely say that Wiccans do nothing of the sort. Besides, didn't God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son to him? By your logic, I'll asume that ALL Christians practice human sacrifice! You like how that feels, Ducky?

• If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a person taking up ALOT of space.

• oh my goodness. i like butts

• Wiccans are RETARDED. I get it you're weird and different AWESOME.

• Wicca Wicca wiggety wack! Stop slammin' Wicca with all that smack! We kiss the bees and hug the trees! The faeries have got out back! Yo...I'm out..SPLENDIFORUS!!

• I read this, then laughed a bit and said to myself, "Too good to be true, eh?"

• WLAD - can you explain to me the link between satanism and wicca? I am not a religious person but I don't personally see the link? Nor do I see anywhere in the report that says she is a satanist, so don't even see how it's relevant. As for if she says she's a wiccan she is one, there's a guy in our local park that thinks he's Elvis, shall I let the world know he's alive and well in the UK? I think really you've taken a lot of ill-formed preconceptions and misconceptions and then thrown in a few episodes of Bewitched and a whole bunch of Hellraiser. Seriously, you don't come across as completely moronic, surely you can see you need, like all of us perhaps, to not make judgements on subjects on which you are prejudiced or not well informed?

• After looking at her page, I think it's funny how Wiccan types really like pictures of fairies. And they trade pictures of fairies. Also they spell fairies wrong. What's up with that?

• I was very close to her. As for the rest it's not my place to say in such a public place.

• Bob,it's none of my business but were you two friends?Did you guys hang out together? She sounds like she had Mental issues? God do you know if she had children or some kind of family? Just wondering. Thank You

• That I couldn't tell you. She's not the most stable person.

• Bob, Why did she do it?

• It's kinda funny to read you all arguing over this but let me make this point clear for y'all. I know her very personally and I can tell you positively she is not wiccan, but claims to be. She hardly knows anything about that religion. This crime had absolutely nothing to with this religion.

• Ironically, the last thing she did on her myspace was friend "Destroy to Recreate."

• Did anyone notice her myspace says she got married on Mar 4?

• Actually you said that this particular story sounded like it wasn't a "coincidence", and Lex was arguing that no wiccans kill people. And you saying "yes we CAN know, someday I hope we will" only shows that you are assuming one day we will know but how do you know? I dont write anything off I just have accepted the fact that nothing exists except right now and even your past present and future might not even exist. You only think it does b/c that's what you've been told. But people are going to continue doing whatever they want no matter what the "rules". I dont have any wiccan friends and Im not on the defensive at all lol I personally dont care about what that ladys reasons are for doing what she did, I'm just glad she was caught for doing it! I was just trying to get my point across to you - as hard headed as you are - that you or anyone can't just assume you know anything for a fact. But it was a good debate!

• Show me where I said that something in the Wiccan religion says "lets go kill people for rituals," PLEASE! And again, yes, we CAN know. Someday I hope we will. It's that self-defeating attitude of "let's just write it off since it's all so mysterious" that is an obstacle to the truth! If the set of rules includes "Do What Thou Wilt," you can bet someone is going to flex that rule to...kill, rape. It's just obvious. So, don't act like it's the bad seeds of Satanism that subjectively distort the dogma. It's inherent in it! And I personally (but will conceed this can still be debated) believe there are associations/derivations between satanism and wicca. And a hundred of your friends practicing any variety of either of them will never make it not so. You're assuming I'm just willy nilly going around stereotyping all Wiccans, when all you have to do is read how I qualified my statements to know that isn't true. You're hearing what you want to hear, because you're on the defensive, I think, for your Wiccan friends. But if they don't practice such behavior, you shouldn't have to. I get why you'd fear they would be persecuted, but LE would have to have probable cause they were commiting crimes first. I'm well aware that it is the case that not all Wiccans do commit crimes, as I have said repeatedly here.

• Lex was saying that there is nothing in the wiccan religion that says lets go kill people for rituals. You, duck were saying there is. I was only saying that neither of you can possibly know that. I'm not associated with wicca really at all but I do know lots of religious people in other religions and most of those religions you have a set of rules you have to follow in order to be a part of that religion. But we as humans fuck that up, b/c we are human, and we call them "extremists". But not knowing the facts behind a religion, and thinking that just b/c I say I'm a Christian gives me right to molest little kids bc Jesus told me to, does not make me a christian. So all I am saying is before "you" parade around saying that this is a wiccan thing and she is doing a wiccan ritual, try to figure out what the religion is all about first and try to figure out the facts.

• But that's the point, there are more than one brand of Satanism, not just Anton Lavey's. In an interview you can find online, though, Lavey is asked if he ever performed human sacrifice. He essentially says "If I did, do you think I would be stupid enough to admit it?" Lavey was a liar and a con artist, but you trying to defend him as an example and claim that satanism doesn't condone violence is extremely misleading. Everything in their dogma shows a disregard for the suffering of other people. It is completely self-indulgent to the point that sexually abusing or even murdering anyone else is totally supported by their beliefs - if a satanist chose to take it that far. Go look at the websites I posted and see for yourself how many of them have. Now, do you think that was Anton Lavey's version of Satanism or Michael Aquino's? Does it entirely matter?

• So you're saying that the focus of her myspace page is the bible, and not Wicca? I've already said, there is no Wicca rule book that says you're not allowed to quote from ancient texts i.e. the old testament. Or even the new testament for that matter. That was one of my first comments. Pay attention and stop pretending the rest of the world is completely ignorant to your beloved religion or anyone else's you want to uphold. I'm not saying all Wiccans are bad, and if that isn't obvious by now, I have no use for you.

• I was saying that the satanic religion is in no way violent (Im talking about the anton levay one), and the one "satanist" who goes around killing people saying satan told them to do it, is not a "true satanist", and making other people in that religion look bad. This is what I have been saying ALL along. And this happens ALL the time. I am not saying anything about YOU, I am saying that people ALL the time use religion to cover up or JUSTIFY their perverse actions. We read about it all the time on this site. And just b/c this lady says that what shes doing is a wiccan ritual does not mean that it is. If its not written in the "book of wicca" then its not suppose to be part of that religion. But that also does not mean that a wiccan sect hasn't broken out and started killing people in that way. But we dont know that! But yes I do agree that is she has started or is in one of those killer sects then yes, they should definitely be investigated and stopped. Her story might not make too much sense too b/c she was probably wasted. But you never know. Also, how do you know I dont care about truth? How do you know what truth is? Your basic idea of truth is a bunch of preconceived ideas that has been passed along throughout the years and you just accept it, b/c that's what everyones told. How do we know its truth? I am not saying that this "ritualistic murder" was a "true" part of the wiccan religion and I'm not saying it wasn't. All I am saying is that WELL NEVER KNOW. I believe that anything is a possibility. I have never picked a side saying that this couldnt happen I was just saying that people use religions to try to justify their actions all the time. But people are allowed to take whatever they want out a religion and make up their own so who knows whats goin to come out of that!

• Wow. Walks you seem to know absolutely nothing about anything. She quotes the bible quite a bit in her blogs, not that you bothered reading them. Typical rush to judgment, by a person who'd rather slander a "godless heathen" religion than actually use his brain. Typical neo-con christian bigot.

• religion equals control. people want to be controlled. religion promises something besides this one life that we will know. it satisfies the fear of death. those with twisted ideals of being in control of others create the religion. the sheeple follow. the strongest have survived for centuries. those with twisted ideals of being in control of others created off-shoot religions. people want to be controlled. the sheeple follow. sometimes those with the twisted control convince the sheeple that killing others is instrumental in their survival. this, done successfully, nets the 'twisted one' yet more control. sometimes the 'twisted' doesn't have a need to kill others, they have a need to sexually abuse others, thus gaining their additional control. it happens in every religion, everywhere and throughout time. independent thought is the only thing that will further propel us to a higher thinking people. not a nihilist by any means, but i just don't get the entire religion thing since i started looking at it with independent thought. imho, all religions are a falsehood that have kept man kind from evolving as we should. these thoughts brought to you courtesy of some really good pinot noir.

• Right duck.

• Melanie, the point you are supposedly focused on making seems to be "There are religious extremists of every faith." That was never in dispute. It's a pretty simple concept that only required one comment. Yes, of course that is true. So, LE might be looking at one extremist Wiccan cult in the investigation of this crime. Moving on...

• Yeah I get what your saying, but why does there have to be a text book or rule book. Religion can be subjective or conformed to how an individual seems fit to practice. Some Muslims are extremist and some live on the other spectrum. Same with any religion, so if she says she is a practicing Wiccan and it comes to be she followed her religion(Wicca) to her beliefs and made a human sacrifice, than that is what it is a Wiccan sacrifice.

• I guess I don't see the point of casting doubt on whether the person was actually Wiccan or just pretending to be a Wiccan, or if "real" Wiccans would claim her as one of their own or whatever. These all strike me as rather insignificant to the central arguments. If a murderer identifies as a Wiccan, inviting the victim to a Wiccan ritual, then the investigation ought to proceed by figuring out what her relationship is to other Wiccans who could have been at that site that evening and might be accomplice. This has digressed into rhetoric about what is or isn't "true" Wicca, and I am getting the impression that Melanie may have some association with Wicca, though she denies religious affiliation, that leads to to prefer to argue semantics rather than anything that could lead to a logical conclusion.

• Melanie, so let me get this straight, by wording your first sentence of the last post thus, you are suggesting that a "true satanist" would not murder, or are you asking the question? It sounds like ou're just playing devil's advocate for both sides and instead convoluting the whole dialogue more. I gather from that that you really don't care much about the truth, or prefer that the truth about such issues remain in the shadows. I think you're misconstruing the issue by suggesting anyone has blamed their own religion or that I am trying to blame the religion. So, let's return to the facts of the case. The woman told LE herself that she invited the guy to witness a Wiccan ritual. Which begs more unanswered questions: Who was performing the supposed ritual, just her? Were there others? It seems to imply they met a group of people. Therefore, whatever sect that woman belongs to ought to be thoroughly investigated, wouldn't you think? Nothing about her story makes sense besides the fact that she incriminated herself by saying she was part of this ritual, then he tied her up, then he untied her, then she stabbed him, coincidentally 13 times, coincidentally on the supposed ritual day. What I think is the limitation inherent in the short-sightedness of law enforcement is that they are trying to solve murders with suspect(s) and don't seem to be put to the task necessarily to uncover any conspiracy, as long as they can pin a prosecution on at least someone as a stand-in for what might be really going on under the surface. I for one would like to see that change, but it won't as long as people say "That's too farfetched." And I associate that denial with fear of the truth, personally. Then people like you contribute to a desire to sweep away whatever else might be beneath the surface by seeming not to take the possibility seriously that it does lead back to a particular...I'm using the word "cult" for lack of a better word. You get all these people coming out of the woodwork saying "Don't give Wicca a bad rap," or "That's not Wicca," but maybe there's a good size segment of Wicca that does deserve some scrutiny. Maybe it's a very small minority percentage of the Wiccan cults out there. But people like Lex swearing such a thing doesn't exist because his Wicca friends never admitted to murdering anyone definitely doesn't help. And if you notice, he hasn't disputed anything I've said since challening his original points. I'm not attacking you, Lex, but no comment to me is essentially saying "you make very valid points that I can't dispute," i.e. "perhaps I was wrong."

• I never said anything about what you said I was saying what I think, in a general way. I didnt mean that you had said that. But Shannie, just b/c the person who "thinks" they are doing a wiccan ritual, doesnt mean it is actually a wiccan ritual. I can go on a killing spree and say I did it in the name of whatever god I wanted, doesnt make it a religious ritual of that religion. It makes me a delusional liar.

• You do realize that most of what you cited happened during the height of the satanic scare don't you? Of course you do. Satanic Ritual abuse has pretty much been proved to have never occurred in the ways people said they did. The FBI could find no evidence of anything like that happening. Sure, people made careers and tons of money by scaring the shit out of the bible belt during the time. Psychologists made huge careers out of "recovering" memories of SRA, but the fact is, it did not occur. It doesn't really matter what anyone says because we're all full of bullshit for not believing that this woman is what she claims to be. For your information, I didn't learn about Wicca, Paganism or Satanism from a textbook. I've been a Pagan for quite some time. I've been to Pagan, Wiccan and Satanic ceremonies. My best friend is a Satanist. I know from where I speak because I live it. I happen to own a ritual dagger. Guess what I use it for? I use it mostly for cutting herbs, carving candles and things like that. The only time I spilled blood with it was when I cut myself by accident. Long story short, oils on the hands and cutting a piece of twine do not a good combination make. Are there people out there who believe they are practicing Wicca, Paganism and Satanism by killing animals and people? Most likely. Just the same way there are people out there who believe they are practicing Christianity by blowing up Planned Parenthood offices and shooting doctors in their church. As to why we get all riled up when people spout off about things they know nothing about and try and paint us all with the same broad brush, it's for the same reason people come out in droves to say the nut who shot the abortion doc wasn't a real Christian. We're tired of all being made to feel like we're somehow evil, abnormal, insane or what have you based on which religion we follow. During the years I've practiced, I've come across two groups I found disturbing. One appeared to be looking for young girls for sexual purposes, one appeared to be into some pretty weird shit with hurting animals. Both were reported to the police and the FBI by myself, my circle and several other circles in our area. The reasons were twofold. Number one, we did not want children or animals exploited by anyone with our knowledge. Number two, we don't do nor do we condone those things. The Satanists were right there with us making phone calls. In fact, my large, scary Satanist friend was planning on heading out and scaring the living shit out of both groups. For anyone who wants a view of the other side of the RA debate, here ya go: http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/sra.shtml http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/howRAstarted.htm http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/index.htm http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcmartin/mcmartin.html http://www.skeptictank.org/zavis.htm http://ncrj.org/resources/info/the-ritual-sex-abuse-hoax/ I could go on and on, but my lesson plans need writing now.

• Or the one satanist who is murdering people is crazy and trying to justify their actions therefore not being a "true satanist". I'm not attacking any religion at all, I'm talking about the people. I think religion is ridiculous but I also think that if someones happy in that religion then let them be. The only thing that pisses me off is when one stray person goes off and kills someone and blames that religion, making everyone of that religion look bad. For example, priests who molest kids in the name of Jesus. We all know that was not Jesus telling him to do that, hes just a fucking idiot trying to not be fully responsible for his actions. Know what I mean?

• I see it like this, if this woman says she is Wiccan and the investigation finds that what drove her to murder is a ritual sacrifice than that is what it is. Doesn't mean all Wiccans do such rituals or even choose to acknowledge that they exist. But it is still a Wiccan ritual sacrifice.

• You're missing the point if you think I am "blaming the religion." Please go back and read what I've said in entirety, because you're completely misinterpreting it, it sounds like to me. I don't believe it is an "individual" thing, I believe many, untold numbers (that's the question) of individuals collectively have such depraved desires in common, and prefer to gloss over it by saying defensive things like "witchhunt" and "don't blame Wicca." It's not about blaming, it's about figuring out what the fuck is going on in this crazy world, in the weird fringes of society that are ritualistically murdering people and sexually abusing kids!

• "True Wicca ways," if you go back and read the context of it, was similarly poking fun at the idea that someone could say "I know Wiccans, and Wiccans never do this." It's a similar concept to me, this idea that you can just point fingers and say "Well, you don't know what you're talking about," since it's not like something that is common knowledge, and it's not something that can be considered a perfect "text book" practice. Or is it? Someone else enlighten me if they think it is. If it were, I don't think you'd have one satanist murdering someone and another swearing it never happens - unless of course the latter was flat out lying! Or just ignorant. In which case...don't speak for all of Wicca when you make your statements, just because you cast a magic spell you read in the Necronimicon once. Know what I mean, man?

• I will eagerly be awaiting Lex's thoughts on these prosecutions, as well as anyone else who wants to defend all of Wicca and all of satanism as if SOME of the sects do not condone, if not practice, ritual abuse and ritual murder. I think if you were a responsible, truly peaceful satanist, witch, Wiccan, or whatever you call yourself, you should acknowledge the truth rather than negating the facts, and hopefully do what you can to report anyone you know DOES condone/practice such heinous shit. I would like to think there are many with some loose derivation or association with another religion where it is accepted who would still stand up for what is right and decent. I believe there are. But it's a mystery to me, in light of all the obvious facts, that they only thing you ever hear on here is people wholesale saying nothing is amiss anywhere in any of these religions. That is just completely immoral.

• Textbook religions that you can read about and learn about may not be into murdering people but what I was saying is that individuals USE these religions to make murder ok in their heads. Dont blame the religion for the stupid individuals actions.

• Jesus may forgive people for poking fun at christianity, but the OT God would strike you down for doing that. And aren't they the same person? And what are the "true wiccan ways"????? Is there a list or something that tells you how to be a "true" wiccan rather than a fake one? All I was saying is that people constantly use their religion to justify the things they have done, and that doesnt mean that the actual "true" religion is about that. Oh and Lex, you cannot possibly PROVE that no one out there is into ritualistic killing. Maybe you dont know anyone who does it but you can't prove that every person in this entire world does not do it, b/c you dont know. But maybe someone has made up their own religion thats not in your stupid textbooks and they go around killing people sacrificing them to their gods. You never know.

• Melanie, what I am saying is that we CAN know. We should be able to draw conclusions based on the facts tried in courts of law we put any degree of trust in. We should be able to effectively speak out against the proclamations that people make on here and elsewhere that ritual abuse and ritual murder don't happen. They absolutely do, unless you believe that each and every one of those cases was based on lies, conspiracy to prosecute innocent people, etc. Every one of them?! Really? Could anyone actually be stupid enough to go so far as to say such a thing? The question is merely how organized it is, and how closely various sects practicing it could be connected. And which cults/religions/whatever you want to call it are responsible. The only other possible viewpoint disputing this I see here that I'm just going to be the first one to throw out there because it is way too convenient to use is that every one of these verifiable cases is just some random rogue person who has no legitimate ties to satanism or Wicca anything. But does that actually make any sense to anyone, that it could be explained away so easily in every single one of those cases? I guess I also feel that the worst thing we can do is just be like "Well, we'll just never know, will we?" YES! We should and we must!

• Admitedly, I had not looked at those links in quite some time, so revisiting them now, one of them I acknowledge focuses on the ritual abuse. But I think it begs a very similar point, because the same people who want to argue that satanism does not condone sexual abuse will swear that ritual murder would never happen in satanic or wicca sects. I think the "Do What Thou Wilt" philosophy basically negates the value of your neighbor's life and right to sexual privacy or whatever you want to call the right not to be raped. Many of the rape cases also include, surprise!...Murder, as I think the other link testifies to. So, all I am saying is, if you want to claim that no Wiccan practitioners ever commit sacrifice, I think you would first have to convince me that Wicca and satanism are completely divorced from one another. If you want to do that then, you should not have mentioned satanism above. As far as any bias, though, to elaborate on my earlier point there, what bias would I have, if I am agnostic? I don't seek to banish all non-christian religions. See how the idea that I have a bias doesn't hold up if I'm not coming from a religious perspective? It's just what I see, and I bring it to light because I'm sick of hearing people pretend it's not happening. Somewhere, I guarantee it is.

• LOL...You dont know what goes on behind closed doors and neither do I so we both cannot say either way. But EXACTLY ducky, we can never come to conclusion b/c WE DONT KNOW. Just admit it college scholars. NOBODY KNOWS and you NEVER WILL.

• The first time I posted the first link was an error, here they are again: http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases.shtml http://www.newsmakingnews.com/karencuriojonesarchive.htm

• Oh good! Lex DOES have an intellectual backbone. First let me say you gave one "example," if you can call it that, prior to you claiming taking religious studies in college (OK, meaning what, A CLASS, a degree, a minor in? How many classes focused on Wicca). Your example was...let me quote you "I've known people who've practiced (and been invited to many ritual's) Wicca and Paganism for well over 25 years." So, first I would encourage you to clarify for the sake of accuracy - did you know them for 25 years, or did you mean they practiced for 25 years. It's far too much of a generalization to stand up as a defense for your point, which seems to be, and correct me if I'm misinterpreting: "ritual murder is a myth." Also, I think it's really important to ask yourself how many people you know practiced Wicca that long to feel qualified to make these broad statements about all things Wicca, and most importantly, how many of them were all in the same, peaceful Wicca sect. That is key, in my opinion. It deflates your argument if you're not talking about at least a dozen people in say, 6 different, unrelated groups. I'm not expecting you to be entirely scientific here, I realize it's just your own personal experience here, which is why I think it doesn't qualify as proving anything. What it does suggest is YOU have a bias. My only bias is scrutinizing years of what I HAVE READ and smelling a rat. But otherwise, your "example" is not anything close to a true cross section of the Wicca population if they are groups so closely related that they ever come in contact with another. At least that's my opinion. What I'm about to present, though, is not subjective, it's purely fact-based. Now, these sites combine ritual abuse and ritual murder prosecutions. But I defy anyone to prove that any of these murders didn't happen, that the guilty parties were not prosecuted, and that they did not involve several people conspiring to murder. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a wrongful conviction here, I'm saying to the deniers or ritual abuse and ritual murder that the evidence for its existence on at least SOME substantial scale is overwhelming, and that it is completely naive to suggest otherwise without being able to prove your points to the same degree that I have above. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ra-info.org%2Fresources%2Fra_cases.shtml&h=236e9ddd6614fc0dea10e2e5cb1cb1fc http://www.newsmakingnews.com/karencuriojonesarchive.htm

• Well, if we can banter, like, philosphy 101 type of rhetoric all day about "doesn't mean it does, doesn't mean it doesn't" all day long, then we can continue to never come to any conclusion or learn if either has a higher probability. That seems productive. The bottomline is you either believe that there is a strong possibility nihilists who don't value human life other than their own or maybe (wishful thinking) their immediate circle of friends congregate and wreak havoc, or you think that it is an impossibility. I for one think it is extremely naive to believe that people willing to perpetuate human sacrifice don't gravitate towards one another. So, which do you believe? It's black and white, there is no gray on this. It either is or it isn't. What do you feel? I would say the law of odds dicates that it MUST be in some cases, and I think several prosecutions in the past 2 decades illustrates, arguably PROVES that. The question is how many cases, and how many of them revolve around satanism, which is just one of many religions you may or may not agree is derivative of Wiccan practices, or possibly vice versa. I'm no expert, just willing to stick my neck out to start the dialogue about it. But saying "That never happens" as if it's a myth really contributes very little, if that's all anyone has to say. Not to mention that it's patently false and that I can prove it if challenged to, in about 10 minutes showing you two websites that list every satanic murder prosecution with easily verifiable facts. The only possible objections are splitting hairs about whether satanism was involved, or whether the facts were presented completely accurately. But in the end, the facts will still remain in every case that multiple people were murdered and that multiple people were accomplice to the murders. Anyone game to discuss?

• Again Melani, PROVE IT. I not talking about wacko's like Richard Ramirez, the so-called 'Night Stalker' who use 'Satanism' as an excuse to for being a serial killer. I want someone to cite ONE case of an everyday NORMAL person, who has a family and a 9 to 5 job they work, who ritually sacrifices people as part of their religion in their free time...ANYONE? This is almost as ridiculous as the Satanism Hysteria of the latter part of the 80's due to the stupid TV specials by Geraldo Raveria. ALL of those proved to be false, so will this!

• LOL! I'm going to break my own rule.... I GAVE EXAMPLES IN MY POST, I TOOK 'RELIGIOUS STUDIES' IN COLLEGE, I'VE BEEN TO COUNTLESS RITUALS, I'VE, ACTUALLY, TOOK IT UPON MYSELF TO STUDY THIS SUBJECT. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? I think you have some mental issues you need to resolve. I do NOT write these post as some uneducated moron... YOU have a bias, one you will not admit, but is clear in each and every single post you write. YOU think you're right, PROVE IT! I can't, there is not a single case of a so-called 'Witch' that's hurt, maimed or murdered anyone or anything... rituallywww.donaldtyson.com/witches.html I DARE YOU!

• Wow lol... Just like any "religion" there are people who try to use their religion to justify what they are doing. Doesnt mean there ARE actually sects out there who practice ritualistic murders, doesnt mean there isnt. Not all religions are based on love and peace. Some are all about the more people you kill the better chance you have of getting into heaven. But it just means that crazy people always think that their "god/s" are a way out of the harsh reality of what they have done. God told me to do it. Therefore its not my fault.

• Haha. That's right, give yourself an automatic out where you don't have to support your supposedly "educated" statements. The old ironclad "I have Wiccan friends" logic. I know 10 Wiccans, and therefore ritualistic murder does not exist, it is a myth. People only murder people to rob and rape them. Or they are isolated cases of pscyhopathic behavior. What does "you're biased" even mean? My bias is that I don't buy into bullshit I want to believe based on what a handful of people tell me? Wicca advocates act like every Wicca ceremony is a formulaic, exact simulation of each other. Complete with fancy knives that have sharp blades, but not for cutting anything! OK, maybe we cut some twigs or a candle or something, but no one ever gets hurt, ever! I'm not pretending to be "educated" in the ways of Wicca, so please don't waste any of your effort scrutinizing my trivialization of it by jokingly suggesting they cut twigs with the knives. I am poking fun at it because I hate it when anyone gets too precious about their religion, and I have noticed that Wiccans are particularly notorious for taking everything related to Wicca from outside perspectives ultra-personally. I've always felt like Jesus would have a sense of humor if someone was poking fun at christianity, so why should your friends' religion be any more sacred. I realize some people will find the suggestion that making light of christianity is blasphemy, and that's part of my point too. But with Wicca, it's this idea that because it's so secretive and only the "insiders" can truly know the "true" Wicca ways are qualified to comment on it that I find the most fault with. Get over it. I pay attention, I read, I see the writing on the wall. Don't tell me what I do and don't know. I've carefully qualified what I said so as to be fair to those Wiccans who would denounce this sort of thing. You make it sound like I don't have dozens of Wiccan friends. I've certainly known dozens in my life, had some in my family. So, you're no more or less an expert than me. The difference is, you're afraid to have an intellectual discourse about it. You'd rather deny there is any possibility someone being stabbed a coincidental 13 times on a Wiccan holiday might not be quite the random murder it seems. It's that kind of stymieing of dialogue I CAN'T STAND!

• ITWLAD~~~ YOU are clearly bias and uneducated on this subject. I wont bother replying farther to you. I suggest you educated yourself on this subject before you make a bigger fool than you already have...

• Lex, they aren't gonna tell an outsider about it, pal!!! They don't advertise "RITUAL KILLING AT THE PARK, SUNDOWN" on fliers posted in the neighborhood. Come on! I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that MANY sects of Wiccan religions do not condone anything of the sort. But you're logic is like saying "Christians do not practice polygamy."

• All I can say is, if anyone here DID subscribe to an ambiguous/mysterious religion with hundreds of subsets in which you KNEW some of them did or potentially would practice a ritual killing...seriously, would you admit it? Would you even for a minute suggest it could be a remote possibility? Hell no! You would deny it as far as the day is long. There's Wicca...and then there's Satanism...and then there's Michael Aquino. Wake up, people. If you ae covering up for your peers, you're as evil as they are, if you seriously don't believe that there are Wicca sects that would do this, you're delusional. I just don't see how you could pretend that is the case, that it's all peaceful tree-hugging. I call "bullshit." In your shoes, I wouldn't want to acknowledge it either, bodes poorly on you. But it shouldn't, right? As long as you're not one of THOSE kinds of Wiccans. OK, commence with cries of "witchhunt," "Salem," bla bla bla.

• I'm an Atheist, but I've known people who've practiced (and been invited to many ritual's) Wicca and Paganism for well over 25 years. I've, yet, to hear or see of any ritual that requires killing or hurting of ANYTHING, much-less a human being. These people revere nature and all that encompasses. They are more the 'let nature take it's course and how can we improve upon it" types Or as another poster said, "tree huggers"... Even "Satanists' don't kill animals or people. The only 'religion' I'm aware of that does practice ritual sacrifices is Santeria and even then it's mixed with Catholicism... The fact that she's 'cried rape' before is a dead give away to what she's about. I think either she's skipped her medication, is not medicated enough (or undiagnosed) or jail may be appropriate...

• ...and pardon me, but I scrolled down the page and all I saw was Wicca, vampires, skulls and more Wicca. I didn't happen to notice anything biblical on there, so those of you claiming that obviously devoted a bit more time to scouring it to make those points stick.

• Oh, here come the ritural murder deniers..."Oh, no, all Wicca practitioners are GOOD witches, they would never do that! The ritual daggers are just a prop." Right, every last one of them just peacefully worships trees. Newsflash: Don't assume Wiccans are opposed to quoting the bible, either.

• Yeah....normally I would suspect when a Wiccan stabs someone 13 times around the vernal equinox that it isn't a coincidence. But it all kinda went down hill when he asked her if he could watch. Although the guy who supposedly did that is dead and his killer has apparently made up other rape stories. I'm gonna go with ritual murder, yup. Wonder if anyone in the area disappeared last time she was wandering around in her underwear claiming she had been raped. He tied her up first? Hope they could at least prove that...they are probably never gonna sort this out. What I would like to know is can they prove that he was killed in that bathroom and whether they were the only two in there. Hopefully they have determined that he wasn't carried in there after the fact to make it look like a crime of passion.

• Nope, not a ritual killing. Just some stupid person looking for a way out of what she did. Wiccans don't participate in ritual killings. They're more the tree-hugging type, not the stabbing people to death type. I've been a Pagan for over 15 years now and I can't say that I've once come across a Wiccan or a Pagan who would participate in a religious killing. She's most likely just another attention seeker who thought Wicca was something it isn't or somebody who figured she'd take advantage of people's ignorance of religions that aren't mainstream.

• Well at least we know what became of "Buffalo Bill"

• There is nothing actually "Wiccan" about this woman. The ONLY excuse she has is being crazy. I am so tired of (ignorant)people blasting Wicca when 85% of self-proclaimers are just looking for attention and trying to be "cool" and stand out. There is nothing in the Wiccan religion saying that watching someone pee and then retaliating by stabbing them to death is neccesary. There is no violence in Wicca. NONE WHAT SO EVER.

• Bhoebe, you're not missing much. I got an instant headache trying to glance at it... But yeah, I don't see anything 'Wiccan' on there at all. Kind of funny that she has her mood set to "weird". Yeah, no kidding!

• "see Sanford's MySpace page here. " ... Noooo- I don't think I will

• It's funny that the media keeps plastering 'Wiccan' everywhere but her Myspace page is covered with biblical quotations. Sounds to me like she's just a sociopath.

• Wiccan ritual? not hardly-just another drunken bitch trying to pull a fast one.

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