Jose Saenz: A Cunning American Boy Grows Up to Execute his Friends & Family

• I promise... :D

• Sandy: No biggie. We're cool. Cw: I should have worded that better because I didn't mean to imply that you were harassing me. I was prepared for some teasing. We're cool too. And if you do ever decide to hijack a car while streaking, just try to beat her launch record of 50 feet.

• Oh hell ccccc I need to apologize to you. I get to carried away at times.

• I am okay with that-wasn't meaning to "harass" you-more like teasing you a little :D

• Valid observation. Not to get too nit-picky though, what I said to you was a single observation I made based on things you actually said. There wasn't a nice way of saying what I said or I would have said it that way and, when you corrected me, I accepted it. I attempted to make amends. I did not continue to harass you simply because we totally disagree on how to treat criminals. We still disagree, and I still have the opportunity to complain about it. I don't though, because we're allowed to have different opinions. I respect that you believe that your ideas are for the greater good, and that's enough for me.

• hey ccccc-you didn't hurt my feelings, you'd have to work alot harder than that. But I noticed you didn't like having it done to you either :D just an observation...

• CW- Didn't mean to post that twice. I was afraid the first time would sound sarcastic, so I tried to reword it. My work computer sucks.

• Just so everyone knows, about a month ago (?) I hurt CW's feelings. I apologized immediately and I meant it. I mean it now. CW, I am sorry I hurt your feelings.

• Really? I can explain the multiple differences that occurred here. For one, I apologized. But here, again: EVERYONE, I AM SORRY THAT I HURT CW's FEELINGS! I WAS OUT OF LINE! :)

• what? ccccc doesn't like her character being assassinated? hmmm...

• Yes Sandy, This is the type of thing someone like me posts: "Well Hyenakiller, we have different perspectives. It doesn't make either one of us intellectually bankrupt, just different. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Maybe one day we can discuss your viewpoints further, when time allows. As it is though, no offense taken & have a good day." Or "Oh hell, Shannie, you can disagree with me all you want. You weren't being offensive. I actually like hearing perspectives that are different from my own. Gives me something to mull over, refine my point of view, maybe even learn something." I have nothing but respectful. Please reconsider your words regarding me. Time and time again, I have proved a willingness to be patient. This is character assassination based upon the fact that I disagree with you.

• @Sandy, no worries; I hate when typos strike. I will endeavor to take your advice sweetie.

• Sorry Alexa, I hit the Z, for give me. Don't take ccccc's comments to seriously she/he has been picking in the dirt at everyone.

• ccccc, my dear that's just California. Illegals need to stay in their own Country. Oh and the Medicare you stated the illegals steel from that also their not US citizens therefore they are not entitled to it. ccccc you're the one that should apologies to alexz kim. Nazi insinuations.....Shame on you. Californians is $10.5 billion per year. Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount$1.4 billion that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.

• @ccccc, I owe you absolutely no apologies of any kind. You're delusional. Retract your Nazi insinuations.

• ccccc said This article is was, probably, from about 10 years ago. So I'm sure that the percentage is even higher now. But, go to any government website that keeps PRISONS AND JAIL statics, which will bare my point up... And yes, the 14th amendment that grants automatic citizenship to anyone born on our soil NEEDS TO BE REPEALED. It was not meant for illegal breeders to take advantage of and use our welfare rolls to supplement their lifestyles. Or to make a claim for 'amnesty'. In fact, we need to repeal the entire welfare system. There is a LOT we can do to get rid of illegals. Fine employers, Fine people who rent to illegals, Make English our official language and conduct everything in English only, do away with welfare COMPLETELY, do away with all forms of social benefits for people who are not here legally (such as schools, hospitals and food subsides), make it impossible for anyone who is not in this country legally to obtain or receive any form of help or anything else from the taxpaying citizens/legal residents of this country. If they can't live here, aren't catered to in 'their' language, can't work or suck at the teet of the taxpaying American public, they'll self deport. Costing us nothing...We wouldn't even have to bare the cost of building a fence (although we should). For the record, I don't care what race, nationality, sex or sexual orientation illegals are, I just want them gone!!!!

• Alexa kim: What you're trying to accomplish with the nazi stuff is bs. I still contend that you owe me an apology. I am willing to put this behind us though. Olive branch time?

• @Pete, nevermind. *blush* Wrong thread.

• @Pete, whoa. Several comments I posted earlier featuring various illegal immigration news stories and sources of information are missing. WTH?

• @Pete, re term limits. Then what is it about the business of legislating are we continuing to get wrong? If the newbies are relying on lobbyists why aren't the lobbyists banned entirely from their hallways? Why aren't their predecessors not bringing them up to speed before turning over the keys? I happen to like the idea that California is suggesting, a lot. I've always resented deeply the primary system where I am prevented from voting for whomever I choose, regardless of the party. I refuse to sign up for any party anymore because of the bitter bickering they do non-stop. We all know that the entrenched career politicians are not the answer, and you suggest that term limits, at least how they are done in Ohio, isn't great either. So, then why do we have term limits on the presidency? Should we stop having a term limit on the presidency? Oh, and re the funding, that is contained in my draft of suggestions above.

• @ccccc, retract your nasty Nazi insinuations and I will debate you further. Until then, I don't trust you.

• @Pete, a comment with several links I made about 15 minutes ago was snagged for moderation. Is it possible to release it from there soon? Thanks.

• Sandy: "Illegal immigrants are paying taxes to Uncle Sam, experts agree. Just how much they pay is hard to determine because the federal government doesn't fully tally it. But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year." Source: http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm They pay taxes using "using an alternative to the Social Security number offered by the IRS so it can collect income tax from foreign workers." By and large, these are working people who do want to abide by our laws. We should make it easier for them to do so. Alexa Kim: Has it occurred to you that the cost of their medical care (when they drop their "anchor babies", for example) is already offset by the programs they pay into but can't collect (such as social security)?

• Yeah, fire away on your ideas about funding, Alexa.

• I don't know about term limits, Hyena and Alexa. We have them in Ohio, and all it's done has made out legislators less informed, so they're even more reliant on lobbyists that they used to be. Plus, they know that they're gonna be booted from their job, so they're in constant fundraising -- read: whoring -- mode. California has an interesting new law about taking away party primaries and just throwing everyone in a single race without party affiliation, so candidates no longer play to the fringe the win the primary. But you'd have to have someone from California explain this to you. I just saw brief mention of it. I think the story about cracking down on underaged illegals was in the NY Times over the weekend, Hyena. It was about blueberry farms.

• Lex- I searched the paper you mentioned and can find no such article that says 60% (SIXTY PERCENT) or gangs in Southern California are ILLEGAL aliens. What I did find (the closest related article to my searches) was an interesting piece documenting the struggle that immigrants face. You can find it at this link: http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_15335590?IADID=Search-www.presstelegram.com-www.presstelegram.com If it's a real article & you feel so inclined, please post the link. I'd love to read it. Just so you know, illegals haven't been able to collect welfare since '96. What do mean by automatic citizenship? Are you referring to the children of illegals born in the US?

• Term Limits, an idea whose time has come, past, come back, past again, come back yet again, will not die because it's a frikkin' good idea. If it's good enough for the office of the President, then it's good enough for every other elected office.

• Pete- that is why we need term limits. That way people that go to Washington will be compelled to work instead of trying to win re-election. And no, I didn't see that... Do you have a link?

• Joe said "I'd be willing to bet illegals more than make up for their cost in lost income taxes by what they pay in sales tax and property tax." Illegals paying taxes? Illegals don't pay taxes unless they do it illegal by fraud, with fraudulent SS #.If they pay taxes if any, it doesn't not make a dent in the human services, criminal housing, drug dealing and fraud that is committed each year by these people. Most of the Mexican people send the majority of their earnings to Mexico. Their money earned here isn't even spent here. The employers need to be fined and prosecuted when hiring these people. They know exactly who they are hiring. The big corporations have their hands in OUR pockets the consumes. The farmers as well. Crying that they can't afford to pay fair wages. When you people come back with "the small farmer will be out of business, guess again. Small farmers don't hire workers, they do the work themselves. If you need work hands, you're a good size farm. Where I live in the valley, we are the biggest agriculture city in the US. You can bitch all you want but the problem of illegals is financially devastating to this Country. We can talk about the Constitution all we want, I was taught in school the Constitution of the United States was written for her LEGAL CITIZENS...........

• @Pete, I have some ideas that involve the country of origin paying for the charges incurred by their citizens. It could be done by offsetting amounts we owe them, and vice versa. I resisted offering all of my ideas because, as I warned Joe, it is quite lengthy. And we all know how much some readers really hate long comments. TL;DR and all. But if it's ok with you, I can post it and let's see what gets saluted or shot down. Ok?

• I like the idea of jacking employers too, Hyena. I'm just not certain how much that would help. You could light up the entire meat packing industry, but it seems so much of illegal labor is off the books -- domestic help, day labor, construction in the south, agriculture, ethnic restaurants, that kind of thing. But I think if we started having criminal penalties for hiring, that would at least stem the hiring process somewhat. The problem is commercial crime is that it's always dealt with with fines. And Chamber of Commerce types have used a lot of lobbying power and money to keep their culpability non-existent. And as we both know, our politicians are far too chickenshit to go after businessmen -- especially businessmen with campaign checks. Did you see the feds started lighting up farmers in the Carolinas last week for hiring underaged illegals for farm work?

• I guess my question is, how do you pay for all this, Alexa? We already have soldier shortages from the two wars we're fighting, and I just can't imagine how we'd have enough enough manpower -- let alone the money to support it -- to pay for all the people you'd need to secure a border over such a vast stretch of land. I'm just not seeing how this financially works out, especially since we're already so broke.

• @Joe, do you have your glasses on? Because at no time in my comments above do I advocate for "mass deportation." Wellp, if you think having to penetrate both Mexican Federales and American National Guardsmen, assembled on both sides of the border, would be a snap for a drug cartel, then we must surrender now, it would save so many lives. No Joe, I have a LOT of arguments against yours, but that would require a very, very lengthy comment. And I do not know if you have the attention span for it. Seriously. Are you feeling attacked? By what, exactly? No, Joe, I think you are either an open borders fan or an illegal alien or related to an illegal alien. You make rationalizations based on emotions. Emotional people cannot be reasoned with. But, hey, if you are truly interested in the rest of my ideas, I'll hog some bandwidth just for you. Let me know.

• @Alexa kim I've read through the comments, and clearly you haven't found a solution that works for me. If you don't have a good response, you can just say "I don't know". I know it can be rough when your tired arguments are countered by moer tired arguments but I think for once you can try engaging in some actual debate instead of attacking people. If you are trying to find a way to deport millions of working people to create jobs for Americans, then yes I'd say your arguments are valid. If you're trying to prevent members of Mexican drug cartels from easily passing to and from the US then I don't see how your solutions solve anything. My point is that you're throwing the baby out with the bath water when you support erecting massive walls and deploying the national guard and holding employers' feet to the fire in regards to who they hire. You're deporting people trying to get by on an honest living and not having any impact on the drug cartels and coyotes. And Sandy, I'd be willing to bet illegals more than make up for their cost in lost income taxes by what they pay in sales tax and property tax. I don't really have any numbers but I'll do some research if I have downtime at work tomorrow.

• @Joe, as a child of a legal immigrant from Mexico, I can assure you, I don't think they are simpletons. But the entire industry of advertising, a multi-billion concern, would not exist, nevermind thrive, if peddling influence were ineffective. Had you read my previous comments, you would have seen that I acknowledged that in this case, this criminal is an American. He happens to truck with a large number of Mexican Nationals, many of whom are here illegally, as a member of the crime cartels and gangs. Honestly Joe, so many of your arguments are so tired and worn out that I am wondering if you have been paying attention lately. That's an honest question. I'll say this much: we have to do something, and a variety of somethings in order to control our border. We don't have a choice in the matter. Mexico is not going to control it for us, neither is al Qaeda. So, who else? In the words of JFK, "we do not do these things because they are easy, but because they are hard."

• Joe, so Mexico has nothing but crime and the crime rate is increasing.?You said "wonder why these people want to leave." That's not the USA responsibility to take care of Mexico's crime problem. We don't have the finances to take care of our OWN let alone Mexico. Illegals are cost the US billions of dollars each year. It's time to shut the doors. Our children go hungry everyday in school because their parents can't afford to feed them breakfast in the morning. Most parents don't qualify for free lunch, so that same kid goes hungry for the rest of the day. The US needs to feed an provide Medical care to our own, we don't need to give it away to illegals.

• @alexa kim & hyenakiller I don't see how your solutions will affect people like Jose Saenz and the real criminals (drug mules & coyotes) coming over illegally from Mexico. The drug cartel members already have forged docs good enough to get them past the border. If you put up a wall you just give the coyotes more business; there's already tunnels from Mexico here and people are still going to want to come over here so they'll need to talk to someone that knows how. Sure we can spend billions to erect a massive wall and man it with even more thousands of border patrol but where is that money coming from? AZ gov Brewer just had a lengthy battle with the legislature to get a penny increase on sales tax in a state that rarely ever approves any tax increases. Maybe a federal tax increase? Good luck convincing a nation mired in a recession of that. Or maybe we as a nation can just plunge further into debt. Realistically if you spend more money on the border it's gonna come from funds marked for things like transportation and education. I don't think spending billions to conduct a manhunt for illegals earning a living working honest jobs and the people that employ them will cure border violence. I highly doubt your average gang member is bussing tables at applebees or some restaurant. And alexa kim, you must think Mexicans are simple people if some national campaign convincing them not to emigrate will work. 40% of the country is in poverty. The minimum wage is $4 a day. Depending on who you believe, unemployment is either 2-3% or upwards of 40%. 26,000 have died in the last 4 years due to drug violence. Even the tourist towns are being hit by drug violence, the police chief of rocky point was critically injured in an ambush recently. Yeah, wonder why anyone would ever want to leave?

• I think it's a fair start Shannie, thanks. Yeah, in our country, with people from so many different backgrounds, we will never please everyone. *shrugs* At least there's SPAM! :D

• Not bad Alexa, not bad at all. I like it, its not perfect and would rub many the wrong way but, so what! Yeah Python :D

• <i>ccccc said: "Alexa: While you know of legal citizens who resent illegals, I know of citizens who became legal and harbor no such resentment. Because they know how difficult it was for them."</i> Yes, but that some do not resent it doesn't mean they are not entitled to equal treatment under the law. They are entitled to demand that all persons be subjected to the same rules that they were. If one person must follow the rules, then all persons must do so. Otherwise, it is favoritism, political profiling and fundamentally wrong. Fundamentally wrong.

• *A nice stretch in a super max...*

• According to my local paper, The Press Telegram out of Long Beach, California....60% (SIXTY PERCENT) or gangs in Southern California are ILLEGAL Aliens... Yes, crime would dramatically drop if we got rid of illegals...getting rid of welfare benefits, automatic citizenship and heavy fines to those that employee or rent to illegals is a step in the right direction. As for this dumb Ass, a nice spent in a Super Max prison sounds like a good idea. 24 Hours, alone in a cell, nice.

• &#64;Y wink wink nudge nudge know what I mean know what I mean! I miss Python.... *sigh*....

• &#64; alexa kim: ;) wink wink!! Also, "polyglot" is one of the greatest words ever created.

• &#64;Pete, you and I have something in common - I have a brother in Tucson. He and I have discussed the horrible state of affairs in Arizona. America has allowed the lack of border control to reach critical mass, to our detriment. I recently had a conversation with a former Department of Justice investigator, now retired. He is of Hispanic lineage, with a Hispanic surname and was not only bilingual but a polyglot. A very intelligent overachiever. He mentioned that he was called back into service to help investigate immediately after 9/11. He and I also discussed the truly dangerous nature of our open borders. He served time at the border in his capacity of law enforcement. I used to live near the border in Texas and watched what was happening there day in and day out. This much the three of us agreed on: we do not have border control, at all, and we must control our border before we do anything else. We can sit around blaming both political parties, with lots of good cause, for weeks, easily. We need to move past it and deal with the problem decisively. We must stop insisting on just our way or the highway. We must all make compromises. Heck, we must all be eager to make compromises in order to solve the problem as a united country. Something that we all kicked around in various conversations was manning the order with the National Guard. That is what our National Guard is for. Guarding our nation from within our nation (not jockeying desks, not soaking up oil spills). The federal government must agree to authorize and accept, with a smile, help from the state law enforcement agencies. No more of this acting like it's a union job to fight illegal immigration. Just the act of not allowing a person to cross our border would save huge sums of money and manpower. If they aren't in our hands, we don't have to process them. Keeping out invaders -- persons who insist on jamming themselves into our country are invaders -- is what our armed forces are precisely meant to do. Now, there are some who will immediately mistranslate that to mean a version of the DMZ, complete with patrolling dogs, shoot to kill orders and threats of nuclear annihilation. An armed presence at our side of the border, along with an armed presence on the Mexico side of the border (by Mexican soldiers, of course), preventing persons from entering or exiting either country without full documentation and express permission would bring the hemorrhage to a grinding halt. Under no circumstances are our National Guard to be prohibited from firing on persons who do not obey orders to return to their country instantly. We can use non-lethal rounds at first to make them turn around. Once they touch our land, they get at least Tased, immediately arrested, sent through a criminal ID process only, and immediately handed right back over. Two-three hour turnaround. That way pregnant women (who would not get Tased) would get taken immediately to a hospital in Mexico to bear their child. It would send the necessary message loud and clear to all persons immediately. Right this minute, Mexico must launch an ad campaign of epic proportions denouncing and prohibiting the illegal immigration of its own citizens into America. It must emphasize having pride in their own nation. It must insist that persons must stay to fight to make Mexico better. Non-stop, without equivocation. For at least 20 years. And I agree with what HyenaKiller said as well. Make it truly nasty for an American employer to hire an illegal alien, knowingly or otherwise, and then one of the magnets goes dead. I'm tired of business people getting away with it because they always claim "we didn't know." They have to participate in the SSN verification system so that they do know. I could go on with lots of other ideas but I'll mention the other large magnet: citizenship by merely being squirted out here. The 14th Amendment was meant to protect blacks from being summarily shipped back to Africa. It was never meant to be gamed to cover persons here illegally just to give birth to an anchor baby. The mother of a child must be an American citizen before their child is born. If they are not, their child is a citizen of their mother's country. Their country of citizenship will reimburse America for the cost of the child's birth here. Once we have our borders fully controlled, then we institute new policies and procedures concerning entrance to America, staying in America, working in America and leaving America. Our immigration policies must be for the benefit of America, as a nation, not as a consumer group. For our safety, for our sakes, first. Nowhere is it guaranteed that anyone who wants to become a citizen and applies MUST become a citizen. No. There are some people we don't want here. We have the right to decide who we invite into our house. New citizens must surrender their original citizenship before becoming Americans. That is not the case right now. The umbilical must be cut and dual citizenship should be reserved for very rare and specific purposes. I must go ice my wrists now. Or maybe someone could puff-puff-pass my way? I keed, I keed... kinda' ;) @Y, you're sooooo cute when you're angry!

• A better use than any other action for AZ tax $ would be issue an additional ticket to illegals apprehended for other crimes. Then to have someone collect additional fines if their immigration status was not resolved.

• Yeah ccccc, It would even be nice to see that the wall didn't just stop nowhere near the end of the line! (Not that it would solve anything) And it wasn't sheriff Joe, it was on (I think)20/20's show friday. It was the last segment, caught the end of it.

• Shannie- I also see the wall as a giant financial folly. It isn't something you pay for once and then no more. After we pay for the labor and materials to build it, then we have to pay as long as it lasts for maintenance and people to patrol it. When I drive down these rutted highways over scandalous bridges that seem to verge on giving up the ghost, I would rather see what federal money exists go to other kinds of maintenance. Especially when I think we might try some of these other methods first- like punishing those who hire illegals, for example. Hopefully the show wasn't showcasing Sheriff Joe. Don't know as much about him as I'd like, but that guy is certainly a mess.

• My bad!! I think not I thing. Sorry all.

• Oh, and I am all for legalizing Pot... LEGALIZE IT, and get rid of our deficit and the criminality of a freaking PLANT. I need a joint; it has been too long...

• Well Hyenakiller, we have different perspectives. It doesn't make either one of us intellectually bankrupt, just different. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Maybe one day we can discuss your viewpoints further, when time allows. As it is though, no offense taken & have a good day.

• I don't know ccccc, I thing any drug can walk in different shoes. What I'm basically saying is that when one door closes on the black market, two more will open up. When those doors open and lead to America is where my problem is. If more laws and new laws were enforced there would be less of a problem at the border and in the border states. Of course like Pete said, financially it seems impossible, but really it isn't. People are bent out of shape just because Arizona wants to enforce an existing federal law on a state level! I watched a show about a border town in Texas(forgot the name), where the sherrif had told the people to arm themselves, because of the amount of violence going on across the border in Mexico and fear of it spilling over into the American town. Plus the constant incoming of armed border jumpers coming into our country through private property and such. Its not that kind of problem here in NYC, its a different kind but if I lived there I would be scared about who is walking in my yard at night and arm myself. I wouldn't care if they were coming to traffic pot, or vaseline! I would care if they were honestly looking for work, there is a way of coming to this country and working in an honest fashion. Paying someone to get you over the fence/border isn't the way.

• Alexa, I was only bringing up the "past" to enhance my thoughts. But i have to agree with HyenaKiller. We really need to hit home to the ones that make it possible for the illegals to be here. Look at a big name.... WALMART!!!! they have been fined numerous times for bringing in Mexican's (illegally), have them work for next to nothing, set them up in apts (10 people to a apt with 2 bedrooms) This has all been in the paper. Buses of illegal Mexican's have been deported back to mexico from the midwest from working with Walmart. Now, when our Walmarts opened, they actually hired citizens. Then all of a sudden, (2 yrs later) most of the citizens in my local walmart are now Mexican's who barely speak english. In Spfld MA we now have over 20K Mexican's (families included) when we use to have maybe 1K. I do not know if they are illegal or not. but i do know that the MA FBI office recently underwent a renovation and aquired 6 new agents. This also was in the news. Our office use to have 2 agents in it. And boston agency was the major player in MA. (remember we had the mafia here for years!) And there has been a influx of Mexican's into the job markets. Not the factories. Not the offices. they are taking over the jobs (full and part time) in fast foods, walmart, gas stations, donut shops and restuarants and small stores. Places where our teenagers and elderly always went for summer or part time jobs. Now there are no jobs for our teens this summer. Again, i don't know if they are legal or not. But there are alot of different services that deal ONLY with helping mexican's get apts and state care. And i know this for a fact. I shop and see them using debit cards from the state for food stamps and cash. And at the doctor's office they have state medical. Not saying all of them. But a good protion. If these people are legal to be here and work here, then fine. But i think someone should investigate Walmart here in NEW ENGLAND!!!! they might be really surprised. I have nothing bad to say about someone who worked hard and honestly to be a citizen. But to those who think it's a "land of milk and honey" for all. Sorry to disappoint. We don't need deadbeats, or people (any race) who wants to get the perks without the effort.

• cccccc, my apologizes. I am very passionate about this issue. And I tire easily of people that make allowances for a group of people that refuse to obey our laws. We are a nation of laws. And if you are lax on one set of laws, how can you expect people to respect your other laws? I feel sorry for these people to an extent, but it would take me more time then I have to discuss it right now. I feel they should FIX their country instead of trying to change ours.

• Hyenakiller: In addition, I hate to bum you out, but I recommended punishing companies that hire illegals about a month ago right here on TCR. That was also my suggestion for dealing with the immigration issue.

• Y: ROTFL!

• Hyenakiller: I don't compromise values. I cultivate values. It's my value system that keeps me from hurling insults at you when you try to hurt my feelings. Be nice. I know you're not a bad person. Earlier I tried to commend you for another post in which your love for your son was very evident. It was sweet. I couldn't post at that time for whatever reason, or I would have. I recommend that you chillax.

• ccccc, you are so bad for this country you are illegal. We need to legalize you before we legalize pot before we legalize illegalized immigration. then we will live legally happily ever after in paradise. ;)

• Shannie: I agree that it wouldn't completely eliminate the problem. But I still think that legalization of pot would eradicate a significant portion of border crime. There is a diverse market for marijuana. It's one drug that spans every walk of life. Crystal meth, for example, doesn't have the same appeal. Although I might just support the legalization of drugs period, which would make this argument moot.

• Yeah ccccc, I agree, different perspectives do help you form new opinions and views on things. One of the reasons I like TCR! Cool, glad to know we're straight. :)

• Oh hell, Shannie, you can disagree with me all you want. You weren't being offensive. I actually like hearing perspectives that are different from my own. Gives me something to mull over, refine my point of view, maybe even learn something. Hyenakiller: That is so funny. I am one of the least politically correct people out there. There's a difference though, between being flippant and being uninformed (or mean-spirited). I am not what's wrong with this country either. I want to hear the opposition. I was in an LTR with a republican. We used our brain and learned from each other. Of course we didn't always agree, but I'd like to think we mentally benefited from each other.

• cccccc, You are too PC for my taste. It is people like YOU that are killing this country. It is your willingness to compromise American Values and laws that puts and put the safety of your fellow citizens at risk that makes you and your kind dangerous. YOU are what is wrong with this country, and we are standing up to you and your kind and saying NO MORE!!

• Ccccc, you stated in a post"I am suggesting that if we really want to reduce border violence than our country should leagalize pot." I don't think that's the problem. With all do respect, we all know that even if every drug was legalized tomorrow there would still be the same issue with Mexicans coming into this country via Americans backyards and farms, still working illegally, driving illegally, living in homes with above the legal occupancy, and committing various non-drug crimes. If pot is legalized, there is still guns, all types of weapons, people, cocaine, heroin, pills(pharmies) and the mass produced meth, which only comes from Mexico these days because our DEA has wiped out large and small meth labs across the US. Pot legalization isn't going to put a dent into the violence at the Mex/US border, stronger law enforcement in border states will. This is no way intended as an attack ccccc, I'm not against legalized pot. I'm against giving away the rights of Americans to people who use our country, and disrespect those who make America great.

• &#64; alexa kim, you are being annoying. And you are a tart. @ Hyena, perhaps it is because people like you exist that I can feel comfortable knowing that somewhere someone is worrying about this so much that I don't have to.

• Hi Pete, Well, it has to start here. If I were in charge, the first thing I would do is make it impossible for illegal immigrants to find work here. I would aggressively go after employers that hire illegals. I would warn them once with a heft fine, and then if they got caught again, I would pull their business license. Then, I would give the illegal's time to self deport before I started the same type of program for people that house illegal immigrants. We don't need a fence if we remove the reasons for them to come here in the first place. We make it too easy, why should they stop?

• Alexa: While you know of legal citizens who resent illegals, I know of citizens who became legal and harbor no such resentment. Because they know how difficult it was for them.

• Alexa: Yes, I was born in the US. I recognize that, by fortune alone, I am a privileged person. Rather than kick out the illegals, I opt for a method that helps people rather than punish them. Make it cost effective for people to become legal and legalize marijuana. Taking those 2 steps would significantly reduce the violence that we all think is a problem, without penalizing the working poor.

• So, Alexa and Hyena, what should the feds do to stop this? I was talking with my dad last night; he lives in Tucson. Neither of us could come up with an affordable to keep illegals out. You could build a fence, but even if you built a huge one like Israel's, they can all be beaten if people have enough time. And that would be cost-prohibitive. Moreover, we can't afford the manpower to cover that much desolate land that goes all the way from California to Texas. I'm just not seeing how we could pull this off without going broke, unless you guys have a better idea.

• And, as usual, whenever the subject of illegal immigration comes up, it takes over the original issue. People here illegally, such as those who did get permission but overstayed their visas, and every single person brought here by cruel coyotes (now there's a black market I would love to see evaporate) presents an unknown. Which of them is someone who will hurt us and hurt us badly? The criminal in this post is a natural born killer. Nothing would make me happier than to just kick him out into the ocean with cement shoes. But so far, stripping a person of their citizenship for being super lousy disgusting killing machines is not allowed. I have no idea why.

• HyenaKiller: Being offensive in regards to Native Americans- who we officially screwed over- is not going to earn you any allies. I would suggest you inform yourself about that particular tale before making further statements in that regard. Most natives didn't feel as if the land was anyone's property, which is one reason why they wouldn't have an immigration policy. Second, as they hadn't yet encountered white hostiles, they had no need for such a policy. Not that long ago, I was having an immigration discussion here on TCR with a lovely native American man who went by Thorn. He did not support immigration incidentally. However, as he was respectful and didn't make wild, offensive statements, I was interested in what he had to say. Maybe there's a lesson here?

• My mother had to fight long and hard to earn her citizenship. She doesn't understand why so many people here will not make everyone do the same as she had to. @ccccc, I understand your emotions of overwhelming sympathy for anyone who deserves much better than they are getting in their own country, such that you are willing to suspend a law for just them. I understand that you don't feel the scope and gravity of the importance of American citizenship because you have not felt what it is like to earn it. You were simply born with it. (Or so I am assuming, please let me know if I am wrong.) Persons who do come here legally deeply resent it when other people are allowed to be here without going through all the struggle, heartache, expense and delays that they went through. It is patently unfair. That means that justice is not for all. Justice is only for those who are more politically sympathetic. It means that citizens, even the newly minted citizens, are <i>discounted</i> in favor of non-citizens who did nothing to earn or deserve the same benefits of citizenship. Trespassers who end up getting treated better than citizens in some cases (they are "forgiven" certain crime commission, are offered in-state tuition rates, just to name a couple of examples). What about the humanity of the people who immigrated here legally? Do we owe them anything for all their respect of our, now their, laws? @AngryGrandma, the danger of referring back in time to how many people came to America from whom we were born is that we then end up going further back, and then further back and further back, trying to find the absolute moral line that justifies one side, or the other. It's hard enough as it is to argue for honoring our own existing laws, without re-trying history. Really, we cannot undo the past. We can only deal with the here and now. @Y, you are being tart and lazy.

• Y - If our federal government did its job and protected our boarders I wouldn't have to worry about it. However, I will not stand by while our country is hi-jacked. Look, if the American Indian would have had an immigration policy back in the day they may still have their country. And we all know what happened once they became complacent.

• I actually know of a legal immigrant who worked a job here illegally in order to save money to cover the expenses associated with becoming legal.

• It must be so exhausting being that angry at illegal immigration. Phew!

• Alexa: I didn't mean to suggest you're ignoring anyone's humanity. I'm saying that I am willing to put someone's humanity before their crime of crossing the border. I just don't think that the majority of border-crossers are hard-core criminals. I think they're mostly people who want jobs. If I lived in Mexico and had family to support & protect, I'd go to America too. It might just be the noble thing to do. As far as that black market is concerned, what you said is correct. Any time there is an in-demand product that cannot be obtained legally, there will be a high demand for said product. I am suggesting that if we really want to reduce border violence, then our country should legalize pot. I think this would have a way bigger impact on reducing violence than just kicking out all the illegals. Especially since such a move would specifically target violent criminals.

• Ok, now for my 2 cents: Everyone of us at some point, we were illegals. Maybe not us, per say. But our ancestors. I know for a fact that mine came to NC from France via Switzerland (or Sweden) during the Heugonot sweeps. I have this in writing. They came by a boat and had no papers to be here. But granted this was in the late 1680's! So maybe Them being illegal in the USA is making me and mine illegals? Of course not. the sitution that is going on now, is nothing like back then. and this isn't a new issue either. Mexican's have been coming into the USA for decades and decades illegally. Where you think all the maids in CA come from? As far as the violence coming from Illegals? Granted, they are committing crimes. But even if they were citizens, they still would be committing crimes. I think they should be put in jail/prison then if they get out, send them back where they came from. Some may not like what i have said. But these are my opinions. Thank you

• Correction: if you come here illegally and then need to get hired legally, then illegal alienship is a gateway crime, to document forgery. I have never suggested, and neither has HyenaKiller, that that then automatically leads to worse crime. Neither, however, does it mean that illegal aliens who commit these two crimes will NOT commit other crime. They're only human, just like you and me. Does that sound like I'm ignoring their humanity?

• &#64;ccccc, but being here illegally is a crime. To you, it's not a bad enough crime. Not all crimes are of the same weight. Someone who drinks while underage does not commit a crime of the same weight as robbery. Unless they then drive or pick up a weapon, in which case, now they are terrible criminals. Oh yes, they are, because drunk teenage drivers kill a lot of people. Our nation's border exist so we aren't trying to rule Mexico and Mexico isn't trying to rule America. It establishes not just sovereignty but jurisdiction. Violating a country's laws gives it jurisdiction. It is law and order. Quite obviously, America is not lopping off hands for shoplifting. Quite obviously we are not headed in that direction, either. You think we think that a person who breaks a law makes them horrible people? It depends on the crime, of course. Does that mean we're supposed to stop enforcing all laws or just some laws? The laws we like but not the laws we don't? Why bother having any laws then? Pobrecito Mexicanos are seeking a better life. So are pobrecito Americanos. Everyone is seeking a better life, including you and including me and including Bernie Madoff and BP Oil Co. and the heads of every drug cartel. We are willing to help anyone who needs a better life if they pursue it legally. The Mexican government says they are doing the same for their people, too. We don't like how they do it. They have the right to not be excellent at certain things. Just like America is not. They have to learn to be good at certain things. They will not bother learning if they are never forced to. Letting a government take care of its own people is not an act of cruelty, it is an act of respect for the government its own citizens selected.

• I'm just saying that if we're going to use the argument that they're criminals just by being illegally here, then everyone who ever drank underage is a criminal. This kind of argument is the same kind that justifies lopping off a hand for shoplifting. It's a blind argument. Is someone who came here illegally to help provide for others in their care reduced now to just a criminal because they crossed the border illegally? No, of course not. Is someone who drank underage now a terrible criminal? Also no.

• &#64;ccccc, there is a gigantic demand for pot in Mexico, I promise. They've been partaking of weed since the dawn of Mexico. So it is not just America's demand that drives cartels. People, people everywhere, can and will create a black market for anything, anytime, anywhere. We're just that way. It's not specific to a nation. @J, I have not suggested even once that illegal alienship is a gateway crime. Don't be ridiculous. I am talking about persons who are already criminals, who come here illegally, keep on being criminals and broke a law that makes it easier to get rid of them.

• &#64;ccccc, you call for the deportation of speeders? So you conflate American citizens breaking the law with breaking immigration laws? Apples and oranges. Americans must face American justice if they commit a crime in America. Chinese citizens must face Chinese justice if they commit a crime in China. Americans must face Chinese justice if they commit a crime in China. Mexicans must face American justice if they commit a crime in America. Do I have to obey the law? Can I pick and choose which laws I must obey? Must I obey the law, but not you?

• I believe Alexa made the point-did they go on to commit other, especially violent crimes? Did they falsify papers in order to work? Those involve more complex crimes with far greater degrees of premeditation. To link them to an increase in crime for an otherwise very violent country is a farce.

• Alexa: I'm not falling for anything. I recognize that the only way that Mexican drug cartels stay in business is because there's a demand for pot in America. There's a demand for pot in America because our government has created a black market for it.

• I call for deportation of those who receive speeding tickets. I don't speed because it's illegal. Those who speed are breaking the law and should be branded as criminals.

• &#64;ccccc, I have compassion for those less fortunate as well. The governments of the countries from which illegal aliens come are supposed to be delivering justice to their citizens. Their citizens are entitled to fair and just treatment. They are entitled to get it from their own country. Mexico, just to name one, has been quietly and insidiously letting America deal with their problems for them. Not because Mexico can't afford it. That is a lie that their ruling, corrupt and exceptionally wealthy upper class loves to perpetuate and we keep falling for it. Stop falling for it. Mexico is quite wealthy enough and quite capable enough of fixing itself and providing for its citizens. But it will never do so as long as America continues to act as a relief valve. The citizens of Mexico have the country they deserve. They are a democracy. They have the vote. Why do they keep voting into power those people who abuse them? That the latest president is actually doing something, finally, about their immense drug problem, now that the cartels are so frikkin' strong because previous administrations refused to stop taking cartel money, means that the Mexican people CAN vote someone into office who WILL do what they promised. It can be done.

• I have no problem with American Hispanics. I believe they are an asset to this country, and I am happy to call them fellow countrymen and women. It is ILLEGAL immigrants that I have a problem with, hence the word ILLEGAL. They are committed one crime coming here. As far as I am concerned they are ALL criminals, and need to be deported.

• Alexa: I'm not saying anyone is racist, and I wasn't trying to use a dirty trick. I was trying to make obvious the fallacy of such an argument. Also, I purposely used the word "illegal" so as not to brand anyone as racist.

• &#64;ccccc, did HyenaKiller or I say "all"? Did we? We are speaking of those here ILLEGALLY. Your gross mis-analogy of my screamingly clear sentiments to "all men" is a nasty trick. You are choosing to see us as raaaaacists, and you are insisting that you know our hearts in spite of the evidence of our steady, unchanging, committed, sincere words to the contrary. You are being extremely unfriendly, unkind, unfair and unjust to us. Something we do not deserve.

• Alexa: Please don't be offensive. I think I've made it perfectly clear in other discussions with you that I do not support criminals. I support people. Country of origin does not change the quality of your humanity.

• Advocatefor deportation make it sound so simple rounding up 30 million people (if that's even an accurate figure) who have deliberately stayed under the radar and driving them back to the government on the other side. It represents a gross oversimplification of the reality of the situation. One of the worst facets of this attitude is that it is either too ignorant, in denial, meanspirited to make any distinctions between a woman who was brought here as an infant with no say and has since made good to the best of their ability, or someone who was kidnapped by EITHER foreign OR American human traffickers and brought here, and an adult who knowingly crosses the border illegally for their own gain. Why doesn't it surprise me that conservatives would love to see traces of the clandestine American criminal element disappear without any convictions ever occur for their involvement in human trafficking operations that our fellow Americans provide demand for?

• Alexa kim: Is the issue. Some people are too poor to become legal. They want safety and a job now. I would too if I had a family there. I don't tolerate criminals. I have compassion for those less fortunate than I, and would chose to help rather than live in fear of what could be.

• Meant to say: As Alexa said, if deporting all men "will mean immediate relief from their crimes, because they simply aren't here anymore, then why on earth doesn't that sound like a good idea to some of us?"

• &#64;ccccc, when persons escape injustice and abject poverty by coming here LEGALLY, showing they respect our laws before they do anything else, makes them welcome. Not. The. Issue. It is when they are here ILLEGALLY, committing crimes against us, harming us, abusing us, that it is long over due to use the quickest, simplest, most right thing of all right the hell now: THROW THEM OUT. See. This is why we can't get crime under control. Because WE won't come together, agree on a standard, and then stick to it, showing very bluntly to the criminals that we are sick and tired of them. CCCCC and J will tolerate criminals, apparently. Especially if they are citizens of other countries.

• Illegal Immigration is NOT a victimless crime. As a country WE ALL SUFFER. Not counting the thousands of crimes committed by these illegal immigrants but the financial strain that they put on the communities that they invade. NO AMNESTY, SECURE OUR BORDERS…

• Hyenakiller: 1 woman killed by as man is too much, especially since it's a preventable crime. As Alexa said, if deporting all mean "will mean immediate relief from their crimes, because they simply aren't here anymore, then why on earth doesn't that sound like a good idea to some of us?"

• Exactly, J. And I'm not about to sell my soul (as I see it) out of fear of crime. I don't live in fear-land. It MIGHT help with violent crime. I doubt it would make enough of an impact for me to ever consider such measures worth it. In addition, I don't believe that even the majority of illegals came here to evade justice. Sounds like many are coming here to make money and escape violence (oh, the irony).

• ONE American killed by an illegal immigrant is ONE too many. Especially since this is a preventable crime. SECURE THE BORDERS, NO AMNESTY FOR ILLEGAL INGRATE CRIMINALS.

• &#64;J, not all illegal aliens are hard core criminals committing crimes against persons and property. But they have committed at least the crime of coming into our house without our permission. If they go on to get forged documents, now they are federal felons. Serial killers occur all over the world, and are of many races and cultures. Please go look it up in more places than those that hate white people. This is called facing reality, not scapegoating. Stop treating everyone who faces this reality as if they must be a raaaaacist because we're not falling for it anymore.

• The logic over this 'Illegals are inherently criminal in nature' is so flawed. We could say if it weren't for white people, there would be no serial killing, except no on would be stupid enough to take such a statement seriously even though we know how the profile of serial killers usually plays out. Find a new scapegoat.

• If ejecting criminal illegal aliens from our house (our nation) will mean immediate relief from their crimes, because they simply aren't here anymore, then why on earth doesn't that sound like a good idea to some of us? HyenaKiller is not saying it is an all or nothing proposition. He is saying, I think, that here is a way to reduce the number of criminals and thereby reduce the amount of crime. Why should Americans continue to foot the bill to punish criminals for their native nations? You think illegal alien criminals started committing crimes when they trespassed into America? They came here to evade justice in their home countries. Those countries should be dealing with their own criminals. Every little bit helps. It's a fast way to get some relief. It's better than nothing, by a lot. Since most criminals commit more than one crime, it would be reducing multiple crimes. The person who should be heading DHS is Joe Arpaio, not fluffy Janet.

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