Kathy Myers Couldn't Afford Health Care, So She Shot Herself to See a Doctor

• @cw, LMAO!! Ohmigutness, good ol' dad was a pistol! Thanks for the chuckle, have a great weekend!

• Ignorance is bliss? here's the extent of my spanish speaking abilities...pepino pedo hope you get a laugh out of that lol or here's another one...feliz perro pedo lol good old Dad. I sure miss him. I'm outta here till Monday so you have a great weekend Alexa!!

• @cw, in Reno, wow. More and more states, further and further north are getting a personal taste of what the southern border states have been contending with for years. I continue to marvel at people who don't want to believe the anchor babies practice. Hospitals have been contending with the additional, unfunded, demand with no relief in sight, because too many people just won't even acknowledge the problem.

• Hey Alexa Kim-you are correct. I am not hispanic speaking but my late father was (not hispanic but spoke the language fluently) and there were many times he'd engage the local hispanic's at the flea market with the same outcome as what you've described. And this was in Reno, not even a bordertown.

• *screeches to a halt* Whoa. I totally didn't see this question. Maybe it's just rhetorical? Well, just for funzzies, I'm gonna' answer. I ask. Soy bilingual. So, I can ask those here illegally whose native language is Spanish. (If I could ask the Russian women in Santa Monica the same thing, I would.) Because I look Mexican, they readily admit their status to me. "Oh, how cute, did you have him here? You did, wonderful. Are you from Jalisco? No, from Guanajuato, oh, very good. You got here just in time to have your baby? How fortunate, the hospitals here are better, true. So now you'll be able to stay, right? Right..." Easy.

• @ alexa kim: "Every time I see an illegal alien woman carrying an American born anchor baby..." How do you determine whether the pregnant women you see is an illegal alien, legal alien, or citizen?

• John Smalls said: I blame the democrats and Obama. ATTENTION JOHN SMALLS! You are an idiot. And you bring nothing, I repeat nothing to the table. Go take your pants off and watch FOX news as usual.

• She needs to hire a lawyer and sue her dog.

• Please don't get upset with one another over a debate. This has been one of the more intelligent friendly debates on TCR. The H C issue is sensitive to all of us. In my opinion and I think we can all agree that all US citizens have the right to get sick and should be treated regardless if they have the money to pay for their illness or not. No Insurance company should be able to play God with a persons life.

• @ForlornW, and you're still an ass. Now scoot along illegal alien to whatever country you are a citizen of and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

• Again, I didn't insult you, I told you your behavior was stupid. And in response you flip out at me over and over and over again. I don't think it matters what I say, you're just going to call names and flip out. I love though, that you called <i>me</i> the abusive personality. That's pretty funny. :) Again, illegals are not getting <b>better</b> care. They have the same access to care (or less) than you do. I'm really done with you. You do not appear capable of discussion. All you do is denigrate and refuse to supply facts on some imaginary basis that I will act the way you do. You're not being at all rational and you keep blaming your irrational behavior on me (because you're not an adult in control of yourself?) Oh noes I thought your behavior was uncalled for on another thread! I am teh evil. My dear, you have no idea what my favorite insult is. I have not yet insulted you, merely pointed out my low opinion of your behavior or poorly thought out "facts". I am not trying to fight with you. I'm not purposely misunderstanding you, you've made some very irrational statements - I mean: <i>I wasn't the one who said illegals get better care. Go re-read the comments. But if access to care at all constitutes better care, then, I'm afraid it is TRUE.</i> That makes absolutely no sense. Again, they have no access to care that everyone else doesn't have. And then you go on to tell me I think forgery is ok or that anyone is entitled to anything and other random, absurd things I have never said. You do not have the insight you need to tell me what I think about anything I have not flatly stated. Sandy, I'm sorry, I like you and I know you're defending a friend, but what you posted doesn't support what she said, at all. yes, illegals tend to send money back to support their families (as you would if you were in that situation, once can only imagine), but they still pay for housing, clothing, food, toys for their kids, over the counter meds, pizza, books, cars, gasoline, etc, here. Many of those things are taxed. They buy property here. That is taxed. They use their employment based false SSNs to work and pay into those taxes. I appreciate your stats about identity theft, but they also pretty clearly show the majority of identity theft isn't about just trying to work but by people actually acting to raid other people's credit, which comes much closer to supporting <i>my</i> point. The SSA, in my experience, doesn't take stolen SSNs lightly, but the IRS operates by collecting taxes. Their aim is only to collect taxes due, and to prosecute tax fraud, etc - they make a good argument as to why they can't be the ones dealing with immigration issues. Added to that, in the article I linked it mentions that the billions of dollars in taxes paid by the illegal immigrants is enough to keep social security afloat for an extra four years. All in all economically it appears we may be making a net gain. Which also doesn't have anything to do with me saying over and over illegals do not get <b>better</b> care than citizens. Illegals have access to the same care uninsured anyone does - or less, because they fear legal remedies for their illegal status, so they work pretty hard to stay under the radar most of the time.

• &#64;Randy Foldspaperforactivityhour, PhD, I can't afford meds. For god's sake. You, El Doctor, are clearly raiding your own inventory.

• &#64;ForlornW, like I said, you started it and I am defending myself against an unwarranted attack. Don't try to justify your mistreatment of me now, it's too late. No amount of you using your favorite insult to opine about my opinion is justifiable. And since YOU opened that door by abusing me first, turn about IS fair play. You go on above to demonstrate that you MISunderstand me, honestly AND willfully. Sandy, however, understands the issues considerably better and has taken the time to do your job, which is to find the information you claim doesn't exist. Clearly, it's out there. Use Google or Yahoo or whatever, but it's out there. For you to act like it's not means you have your head up your exit hatch. You have emotional excuses for not facing the facts. The facts are glaringly obvious but you keep acting like it's all made up. Were I to have supplied the proof you DEMAND, you would have resorted to evasion, denigration, dismissing and flat out denial because it came from me and we all know it. My anecdotal evidence, based on my life, a life lived steeped in the culture brought over from Mexico, from having lived on the border, means nothing to you, so I am not going to bother. The other commenters here who know me know what I am speaking about. I wasn't the one who said illegals get better care. Go re-read the comments. But if access to care at all constitutes better care, then, I'm afraid it is TRUE. Consider this while you're at it: persons with valid SSNs can have their credit ruined and be driven in bankruptcy, because everyone in America who cares to find them for the money knows where they live, where they work, etc. Persons who have fake SSNs, meaning they aren't in the SSA system at all, actually get found out in a few months. But then all they do is find another job and do it all over again. Persons with stolen SSNs, depending on whose they stole, can work for years upon years, presenting their forged SSC (which is exceedingly easy to forge, however, it is a federal felony to do so). If they anticipate getting caught, they move to a new area or get a new job, they steal another one and keep right on going. But to you, these criminals should be *entitled* to their ill-gotten gains. Because the IRS took the taxes. Taxes, among other taxes, we pay to, among other things, prosecute criminals. You actually think that document forgery is perfectly ok. As long as someone here illegally is doing it. But if a fellow citizen dares to, oh, well there you draw the line. It is long past time for you to take off your blinders, apply critical thinking, and ask to borrow someone's common sense because you don't have any. I suspect you're an abusive personality and people like that are the first throw insults and then over-compensate with even more insults when they've been bested. You have a fight on your hands with someone who is not going to just sit back and take it.

• We can blame the private health insurance companies for US citizens not having Health Insurance. A family of 3 pays $790.00 per month for premiums on an average if your employer offers H/I. You still have Co-pays, have to meet your deductibles, and that does not include out of pocket. Estimated for 3 people average $1240.00 a month x 12= $14,880.00 if no one needs surgery, has an accident, or comes down with a serious illness(disease)

• Thank f**k for our NHS

• Randy Folds, PhD, if you don't have a clue as to what Alexa Kim is talking about, please don't insult her. Her ideas may not have been completely clear. she is however correct. And you sir are wrong. Read and weep. They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake "green cards," and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment. •Illegal immigration and high levels of identity theft go hand-in-hand. States with the most illegal immigration also have high levels of job-related identity theft. In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit). In Texas it is 27 percent; in New Mexico, 23 percent; in Colorado, 22 percent; California, 20 percent; and in Nevada, 16 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest percentage of illegal aliens in their total population are among the top 10 states in identity theft (Arizona, California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, New York, Georgia, and Colorado •Illegally employed aliens send billions of dollars annually to their home countries, rather than spending it in the United States and helping stimulate the American economy. In October 2008 alone, $2.4 billion was transferred to Mexico. •The Social Security Administration and Internal Revenue Service facilitate illegal immigrant-driven identity theft. Both turn a blind eye to massive SSN fraud and take no action to stop it. The Social Security Administration assigns SSNs to new-born infants that are being used illegally. The IRS demands that victims pay taxes on wages earned by illegal aliens using their stolen SSNs, while taking no action to stop the identity theft. The information goes on, but I think this proves Alexa Kim's point.

• Well, I can safely say I have no clue what in the hell you are talking about. Take your medication, for god's sake.

• Good lord, Alexa Kim, you moan and cry about name calling, but you whip that right out. I have not called you names, I have called your behavior stupid on a thread in which you trotted out completely irrelevant negative political opinions, and you just keep proving my point by engaging in stupid behavior. You have a choice in your behavior. You don't have to behave stupidly unless you are stupid. You have no "facts". I am waiting for your "facts". Whining about how I would not accept facts you will not supply is a weak dodge. I would like to see you direct me to some article somewhere reliable that says legal citizens are being denied care because illegals are using it up. I'd also like some proof that the people stealing identities and make life hell aren't other American citizens, because every case I've heard of with a stolen identity was an American screwing over another American for money. I have pointed out that illegals here are paying into our tax system. The article I linked mentions an amount just in social security tax of 6 billion dollars a year. Do you think illegals are using anywhere near that in medical care? 'Cause in my major metro area, it's about 17 million. For an estimated 85,000 illegal immigrants. That's less than $200 a year per person to provide emergency medical care - not the drain you're claiming and certainly likely covered by the taxes they DO pay. Your "understand" makes even less sense now. First, you're telling me, a disabled person, what a disabled person does as if A) I needed an update or B) we're all the same because we're disabled. Second, your statement makes no sense in context. There's a lot of people out there, only some disabled, who will wait until a condition is emergent before seeking care, and that's for many complex reasons depending on the person. I've never in my life seen anyone refuse to get care or get denied care because illegals use medical care. I don't "understand" because you're just not making sense. I *think* from what you're saying you're trying to defend the person who says they're disabled and have no medical and why do illegals get better care than they do (to which I only said - repeatedly - they do not get BETTER care). Again, show me where illegals are getting <b>better</b> medical care than citizens. More not making sense: these scary illegals are stealing SSNs to get paid in cash? Whut? People who get paid under the table in cash don't need SSNs. An illegal with a fake (and fake does not mean stolen) SSN is using it so they can WORK for a PAYCHECK. On which they will pay taxes. Again, you're crying about a boogieman that is far more mythical than factual. Unless you can somehow show that citizens are really being denied medical care because illegals are taking it, I'm just going to disregard your nonsense. Trying to treat what you're saying as if you've made points worth discussing is giving me a headache. I have asked you to clarify, I have attempted to engage you in an actual discussion, and you've just spouted nonsense and called names.

• &#64;Randy Folds, PhD, well if you're going to compare little round gum balls to big round exercise balls, you need to let people know ahead of time. Nobody's getting 25 years of care anywhere "Doc." Not unless you buy fabu insurance and barely use it, are self-insured, get a really great doctor and hospital to forgive your bills, or your neighborhood school sells 1,000,000 strawberry RPGs at a bake sale. I'm for universal health care. Until we can tax Mexican citizens to contribute to the pool they're pulling from over here, I vote they demand that THEIR country take care of them, just like we're demanding it of ours.

• Alexa: The ER is chump change compared to the procedures carried out on a non emergency basis. They don't treat cancer, they treat triage. No bullshit here. What do you think costs more, three stitches or three years of hospice care for someone with AIDS Wasting Syndrome? How about a child with MS? Do they get 25 years of care at the ER. Bullshit shop talk my ass. Educate yourself. Public records are a powerful tool.

• &#64;Randy Folds, PhD, the ER is a "menial" thing? I don't fail anything, Smokey, so loosen up that chin strap before you go stop a fire. I already know you're not really a doctor, lawyer, licensed chapped ass therapist so save the bogus arrogant shop talk for a different mark. As for feeding someone at the ER, while that is noble, and bravo, and I won't denounce an act of kindness, wouldn't it be more cost effective, appropriate and better tasting at the local charity cafeteria? Just a thought. @ForlornW, you're the one who started the whole insulting and snotty attitude with me several comments ago at a different post. It was the first time I had ever seen you here. You decided to introduce yourself to me by being an ass. No, moron, ERs don't have quotas, they have limited budgets, inventory, personnel and time in a day. Wear all of that out and they close down. Ask the hospitals near the border. Many illegal aliens who cannot or will not steal an American's identity in order to get a SSN in order to work then work for less than minimum wage, for cash, and do not pay payroll taxes. If you steal someone else's identity, then you have made their lives a living hell when they need to use their own identity to buy a house. For that, you forfeit whatever taxes deducted from your pay, along with going to jail and being deported. No amount of facts coming from me is going to make you happy. Which is why, I surmise, you are forlorn. No where is it stated that illegals, or anyone else, gets chronic care at the ER. If they do get chronic care at an ER, it's because they lucked out. But usually not. When I said "Understand?" I meant, do you get my drift, that a disabled person will wait for their condition to reach an emergent state, therefore making them eligible to get care at the ER. But clearly, you didn't get my drift. You're gonna' have to keep up a little better. I can carry you only so long.

• And before my "my hometown" comment gets taken to mean I live in some tiny area with few immigrants of any stripe, I'll clarify that I live in a metropolitan area of nearly 3 million with a thriving immigrant community that does include illegal immigrants. By far the largest cost is to our education system, which is nearly ten times the cost to our public health care. This doesn't take into account what is paid back in by illegal immigrants in paycheck taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, etc. http://www.truth-out.org/the-price-that-we-pay-undocumented-immigrants-and-taxation60150

• <i>As long as an illegal alien is in the ER getting care, a legal citizen is not getting care.</i> BS. Seriously. There's not a quota out there where any ER says "Oh, shoot, we only had three openings on the schedule today and sadly we gave them away to people who might potentially have fraudulent papers". Can it add to the cost, sure. Does it deny us care? No. Does it add to the cost over and above what illegals PAY IN to our system for benefits they can never use (via paycheck withholding by state and Fed gov'ts)? Nothing I've seen indicates that. If you have a reliable source that says illegals cost more than they pay in (because most sources leave off the part where illegals pay in to our system) I would love to look at it. I'm willing to learn something new. I'm not willing, however, to just have silly statements like the one I quoted stand as some sort of "fact". That statement in italics there is absurd. <i>Disabled Americans cannot go to the ER for chronic care for their disability. They would be turned away and told to come back only in an emergency. Understand?</i> Well, duh. Where is it stated that illegals get chronic care at a ER? You seem to believe I don't understand how medical care for the disabled works, and I do understand, intimately and in far greater detail than I'd like to today. I've never been denied care for my disability at an ER (and my disability requires ER care at some points) simply because there are illegals who may have fraudulent papers possibly using the health care system at that moment in my home town. People keep saying illegals get <b>better</b> health care than our own disabled or our own citizens and all I keep saying is "No, they don't, they get the same care we do at best." No one's disproven this yet, and all the frantic "omg illegal boogieman" rants aren't going to disprove it. You can be snotty to me, Alexa Kim, and it doesn't change what I'm saying, or what you are. It doesn't give you ground to stand on. I'm honestly puzzled as to how any thinking person can sit there and reason it out and believe that illegals get <b>better</b> care than we do from our doctors or our hospitals.

• alexa kim, a little more time and education you would make a great democrat leader. The Sweden tax issue is interesting. Look at what Americans are taxed on and do not have Health Care. We are taxed to death. Oscar referrers to Sweden taxes. He is right Sweden does pay high taxes, that's because most of their taxes goes to their government officials not to health care or education. 101 Countries Have Lower Total Tax Rate than U.S. And the US still does not have affordable Health Care. Why should US citizens be denied medical treatment because they can't afford it. In other words if you're on of the lucky ones in the US today that have H insurance or wealthy enough that you can afford to get sick these are the only people that are going to be treated with open arms in the medical industry. I forgot! If you are the very poor or immigrants you are eligible for welfare that includes medical. History repeats itself and the Middle Class person cares the whole weight of the Tax World on his/her Shoulders.

• Alexa: You totally missed my point. Those are the costs at a general practitioner. You are so hung up on this menial ER thing that you fail to see the forest for the trees. The whole medical practice is wrapped up in an extortion game. Are you saying that feeding some unfortunate souls at the ER is the reason I can't afford to go to a goddamn doctor when I am sick?

• &#64;Randy Folds, PhD, excellent questions. I doubt we'll ever get to the real reasons why we are charged such absurd rates in the ER, but I wish I could say with complete comfort that taking advantage of someone in dire need, like charging $5 for a $1 bottle of water during a disaster, is not one of the reasons. @ccccc, If you have that kind of extra money to spend on any old person who shows up, no matter how many show up and no matter what their ailment, good for you. When can I come over? :)

• Thank you, Randy, for an excellent point. Alexa: I never mean to say that they go to the ER and complain that they're hungry and are given food. They make up a reason to be admitted (often chest pain). In the meantime, they're warm and they're often fed. I will spend my money gladly on any human being. I try not to base such decisions on where a person happened to be born.

• You all seem to be missing one gigantic point. The ER does not carry out, by any means, the majority of medical procedures in the US. Why is it $100 for an X-ray when the only cost is the film, less than 1% of that? Why is a pill of Marinol with 5mg of THC $30 while an eight of ridiculous weed has 650mg of THC and costs fifty bucks?

• If fewer people are here demanding services, then less money is needed to supply services. It is illegal to eject homeless citizens from their home country to deny them medical care. Ejecting those who are not citizens, and are not tourists, is not only legal, it is our government's mandate. It would make a dent in the demand. It would be a start. It would save quite a bit of money. Not all, but a lot. It would free up more money to spend on homeless citizens, especially homeless veterans. Who would you really rather spend your money on? Mexico has TONS of money they can and should spend on their own citizen's health care. Mexican citizens DO have a government that CAN provide for them. The issue is in Mexico, the rich must be forced to release their clutches from around the money they steal from the citizenry with impunity. As long as we keep acting like it's ok, we'll take care of them for you, Mexico's wealthy are more than delighted to go right on letting us do that.

• &#64;ccccc, illegal aliens are not alleviating the health care crisis, either. I have no problem helping fellow citizens, no matter how homeless. That you have examples of ERs that do take care of non-emergency cases does not mean they represent most ERs. Many ERs treat people with the flu and most of them are not in danger of dying, though the flu can kill. Which only illustrates all too well part of the crisis. ERs are not supposed to be used for non-emergencies of any kind. But many illegal alien women will use our ERs to deliver their anchor babies. Something Mexico would not tolerate from Americans. Nor China. Nor Canada. Nor India. Every time I see an illegal alien woman carrying an American born anchor baby, I hear "Ha ha estupidos! I squeezed myself onto your land against your laws, I made you pay to deliver my baby and now I have an American child now so you can't kick me out. AND I'll be bringing over my 15 cousins and uncles and aunts, sponsored by an American citizen: my child!"

• Alexa Kim: It's just as easy to say that when a homeless person goes to the ER for food and warmth, then a paying citizen is not getting care. In West VA and southern Ohio where my ER nurse friends work, it's the homeless that go to the ER for non-emergencies & stiff "us" with the cost. If you can call being homeless and hungry a non-emergency. I don't think it the illegals that are the ultimate health care bad guys.

• Who's that dude in the pic? haha

• I think most of you already nailed Oscar, but I did want to add one last thing regarding high taxation in Sweden. In Sweden, the needs of the average person are met. They will always have food, housing, and medical care. The high taxes they pay ensure that, should they suffer a catastrophic calamity, they will ultimately be okay. Here, on the other hand, people do need to save every dime and agonize over how much they're being taxed because, should WE suffer a catastrophic calamity, we could very well be ruined by it. I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes at all if I knew that me my access to medical care would be ensured. As it is, I already pay a ridiculous amount for supposedly good insurance- insurance that currently wants to dispute paying for aspects of my last routine physical. I would much rather use the money I'm ALREADY spending on bogus coverage on taxes that fund decent health care.

• &#64;ForlonW, illegals get access to health care by stealing American identities, using forged documents. Those illegals who do not use fake papers and go to the ER get just enough treatment to stop their problem from being an emergency. Once they're stabilized, they are sent away. With a bill they cannot or will not pay. Which means their bill will be added to those of people who do pay. As long as an illegal alien is in the ER getting care, a legal citizen is not getting care. Disabled Americans cannot go to the ER for chronic care for their disability. They would be turned away and told to come back only in an emergency. Understand?

• &#64;Stray_Mongrel, I don't have health insurance either, haven't for several years now. To your question I add: I wonder why convicts in prison get better health care than I do, that I am forced to pay for?

• Please tell me how they do. This idea is a myth according to every bit of research I can find. Illegals have access to the same ER that you do.

• I am a disabled American citizen, born in California, and I don't have any health coverage. Why do Illegal Aliens get better medical treatment than I do?

• &#64;Sandy, ah so. I won't hold it against you that you do like Obama. It's a draw.

• Yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with what he was saying, which was illegals have access to something legal residents don't. Not saying that wasn't what he was trying to say, just that it doesn't prove his point if it is.

• ForlornW, I think that Aninonon maybe talking about Emergency rooms and clinics. They do not require prove of citizenship. Anyone can be treated and not limited to surgery.

• Anononon, I'm not sure where illegals get free health care legal citizens don't. To be on welfare, at least in my state and I assume most states, one has to prove citizenship.

• alexa Kim, I agree with most of your comments, not all of your politics. I was agreeing with you in regards to Health Care. I was throwing in Obama because of some of the other comments blaming him for the worlds problems. I should have made myself clear. Yes, I do agree with you On this topic....Alexa Kim, I won't hold it against you for not liking Obama. Have a good night.

• So many comments..... You pretty much have to be illegal or poor to get free health care anymore.

• I can only imagine. I do know what living with chronic agonizing pain looks like (my ex's spine was wrecked by a drunk driver when my ex was only 17), and I think people underestimate the psychological effects of that and the desperation to find some way, any way to end the pain. My ex is managing on methadone right now, of all things, but he'd have shot himself in a heartbeat if it had meant then the doctors could make his pain go away.

• I'd stick with the PhD thing, Randy. I don't know why, but I found that really funny. But I have to admit: I initially thought you were an academic dickhead when I first saw the name. But then you never actually wrote like an academic dickhead, so I guess you're just a mirthful saboteur, eh? A noble profession. I live in Cleveland, so I'm quite intimate with the dying steel-auto towns that have a gross domestic product of $3 annually. I don't think people from elsewhere understand how brutal it all is, so I tend to empathize with people unemployed. In these parts, you feel there is no hope.

• &#64;Pete Totally made it up. Basically, Randy Folds is the ultimate name for a night of drinking with people you don't know. Extrapolate that data, and it is a pretty good name for heckling amidst the anonymity of the interenet. From there, it became the name of all my pets: Randy Folds, Randy Folds PhD, Randy Folds Esq, Randy Folds DIM. I also go by Dr. Hot Tub. No one has ever given me grief for that one. What gives? As far as Michigan goes, seriously...its like all the dying steel towns in the midwest, except for it's a state.

• I think the problem with the selling all your things to pay for surgery thesis is that this woman lives in Michigan. Even if she owns the house, she surely can't sell it there. I didn't mention it in the story, but she borrowed the gun. And since Michigan's entire economy consists of $4 an elderly woman is spending on milk as we speak, there isn't anyone else to buy your stuff if you put it up for sale. There simply isn't any money in Michigan. It's been flat-out devastated.

• So you just made the PhD thing up, Randy? That cracks me up.

• &#64;Oscar, You are, in fact, jerking yourself off over your degree, right in front of god and everybody. Me, I wrote three letters in my handle...Look, I wrote Esq now! Are you a lawyer too? I don't have a PhD and I am not a lawyer, I just think it is hilarious how people attack those letters when they don't have a comeback. So you aren't a kid, but as you said yourself, you have never seen a US medical bill. Aren't you a little out of your element here, frenchy? Do you have any clue what the requirements of Medicaid are? Obviously, she didn't qualify, or she wouldn't have fucking shot herself.

• Randy Folds, PhD: Did you actually believe that referencing your academic degree would magically make your argument unassailable? Or is your ego so fragile that you feel the need to point constantly to your Ph.D., as if clinging to a security blanket? (Good God, you're not one of those sad, little people who insist on being called "doctor" wherever they go, are you?) I am not a kid (although per the ObamaCare legislation, "childhood" now extends to age 26), and, like you, I also hold a Ph.D. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to cling to an academic degree as the measure of self-worth; and unlike the vast majority of Americans, I've actually LIVED under a universal health care system. Except for the severe shortage of drugs, supplies, personnel, and hospitals/clinics, universal health care was everything you could hope or ask for. Add the constant physician and nurse strikes into the mix, and why wouldn't anyone want a universal health care system? [FYI: Government officials, in contrast, received the best drugs and treatment available.] Moving on: Did someone mention Sweden? If that's your idea of a great society, more power to you. Before you do so, be aware that Sweden has a top income tax rate of 60%; a VAT (like a national sales tax) that ranges from a low of about 6% to 25%; a 68% gasoline tax, which is why the price of unleaded in Sweden is about $7/gal; an alcohol tax; and so on. When it's all put together, the average worker in Sweden takes home roughly 15% of his pay. The Swedish don't work for a salary; they work for an allowance. Of course, for every Sweden, there is a Greece, a Cuba, a Mexico, etc. Funny how no one mentions Mexico as a paladin of universal health care, even though health care is enshrined in the Mexican constitution. Believe me, you do NOT want to receive treatment within the Mexican Public Health system (shudder). Last point: cancer. What makes anyone here think that a universal health care system would deal with cancer patients any better than what we have now? Just Google "UK nice cancer rejection". The search will send you to pages of all types outlining how the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has routinely denied cancer drugs and cancer patients because the cost of the patient/drug was too high. For pity's sake, NICE has developed actuarial tables that help them determine whether they will pay for your cancer treatment, in light of your age, gender, cost of treatment, and working days remaining when in remission. If you won't be working (and paying taxes) for another decade or two, good luck! Oh, and if after being denied for treatment, you decide to pay for the treatment yourself in Britain, you will be fined by the National Health Service (must be fair, and all). That is why many British patients take "holiday" in Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland – they travel there to receive the treatment that their much-vaunted "universal health care" system has denied them. By the by, you better get used to a NICE-like board of bureaucrats deciding who gets care, what the care will consist of, and how much of it will be dispensed: a similar body is set up under the ObamaCare legislation. When it's up and running, its rulings will be final and enforced with the power of the State. Of course, y'all know this because you read the health care bill – you DID read the ObamaCare bill, didn't you? I hope you didn't buy Obama's bull on ObamaCare because it doesn't match what is actually in the legislation.

• &#64; Oscar: I'm not going to get into a debate with you over whether or not universal health care is good for our country or not because I disagree with what you've said but I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on others. Here are the questions I do have: Do you live in Michigan? If not do you have any idea the type of devastation some of the people who do live there have had to deal with in this economy? How do you know she owns her home? Is it because it says in the article that she was at her home? Do you realize that people call the place they pay rent at home? I call my mom's house home and I haven't lived there in 15 years! I work in collections (yeah I'm a soul less bastard) a big part of my job is to make people understand what their needs are compared to the luxuries they have but even I think you're an asshole. She should give up her dogs? If you were having money troubles would you give up that infant son you are so concerned about? I mean if you think about it raising children costs much more than taking care of a pet. Does that seem insane to you? That's probably how giving up her dogs seems to her. People love their animals sometimes as much as they could love their children especially if they don't have children so saying oh she should just give them up is really shitty.

• and i'm proud to be an American... and i honestly am. just couldn't resist writing that. what happened? we went from talking about a crazy fraud (is that what we call it?) to politics and mudslinging. what happened?

• KD, I don't "hate on Canadians" but why do Canadians constantly come over to the US to use our healthcare system if ours is so shitty and yours is so great? Just wondering because I live in Detroit near the border and see it all the time.. Not that it's not well known.

• "I do however get sick of the Obama trashing. The guy has been in office for a little over a 1 1/2, there is no way he can clean up 8 years of economic devastation, War and a complete claps of this country in 1 1/2 years." Change one bashing for another? Why bash Bush? Did unemployment ever hit double digits under his presidency? Did Bush turn a $400b deficit into a $1.7t deficit? Bush took 2 days to respond to Katrina, Obama took 26 to respond to the oil spill. Bush may have not been the greatest president and certainly made A LOT of mistakes, but Obama takes the cake. Anyone to stupid to see that should shoot themselves for free universal health care.

• &#64;Sandy, ???? "Obama trashing?" Me? Here? Are you sure you mean me? I'm no fan of Obama but I never mention him here, and in fact I'm in support of trying universal health care. Isn't he in favor of universal health care too? I'm baffled.

• Oscar: I would venture to guess that you are some young kid who has never seen a medical bill, nor had dogs or firearms. Go price surgery on your rotators cuff with the inherent months of physical therapy and potential complications. Then tell me she could sell her house (below market...she was in a hurry) her car, her gun, and get rid of her dogs and then afford it. Nope, not going to cover it. Say she does sell off all her worldly possessions and managed to pay for the extensive surgery. What then? She is out of work, homeless, and doesn't even have her dogs. On a side note, I would kill for my dog, flat out. If you have never had one, you just wouldn't understand. They are family. You cannot fault her for having one. Oh, lost my job, better give away my dog and my kids? Should she have to give up everything to get that which should be every persons right, a pain free and happy life?

• &#64; Oscar While she may not be the best saver, and I agree, it is crucial to be prepared for emergency situations, asking people to sell material possessions to obtain healthcare is far from the answer. It may be a temporary solution if the costs are reasonable, but if you take a person with cancer who requires continuous treatment over a significant amount of time, at what point do they have to stop selling their possessions? When they no longer have a car to drive themselves to the doctor? When they have to sell the house? When they're homeless? You are a fool if you believe compassion has got us nowhere. Without compassion there would be no laws to protect you from people or your employer. Because of compassion you get benefits from your employer in the first place! You fail to look at facts that prove that other nations do NOT suffer lower standards of living as a result of universal healthcare. They are in fact much, much higher. You are stealing the bread out of your own child's mouth by failing to understand that when a population can rely on certain safeties, then it truly can thrive. You're the typical naysayer shouting "get a job", but refuse to show them were jobs are to be had. If the country ran as you would ideally would like to, you'd be out of a job so fast it would make your head spin. Outsourcing, it's all business until it happens to you.

• alexa Kim, I agree with most of your comments. I enjoy the fact that you are compassionate and have a need to express your feelings for people in need. I do however get sick of the Obama trashing. The guy has been in office for a little over a 1 1/2, there is no way he can clean up 8 years of economic devastation, War and a complete claps of this country in 1 1/2 years. The health care will be as great as Medicare. This people on here don't have any idea what the republicans tried to do to the medicare bill when it first came out. The republicans said that Medicare would take our the US down. Try growing old without it. "People, do your research, educate yourselves." As to paying the health care bill, I highly doubt that any of you will make $250.00 annually to pay for the Health Care bill. That's were the tax payers money is coming from. $250.000 and UP. I really don't think you people have to worry about the Health Care and Your Taxes!

• The one in the picture? THAT'S a woman? Looks like she's got quite the 'stache growing.

• Martha! I need me some health care... get the gun.

• Holy hell. Universal health care won't cure morons like this. All it will do is raise taxes for people who actually are working for their own healthcare. This lady deserves a darwin award, and should not be allowed to reproduce.

• You're completely right, Oscar. Gawd knows those Swedes with their socialist medical care of a really low standard of living. Oh, wait. You're an immoral beast.

• Medicaid is not the best example of gov't health care. It's a program without the budget it needs to run, resulting in children <i>dying</i> from lack of dental care. http://www.gazette.net/stories/030807/prinnew190705_32325.shtml Dentists won't take MA without a lot of resistance if they take it at all because they do get cheated, basically. Indian Health Services isn't always better, in some places the medical care was so terrible I could cry simply from lack of funding (and we OWE the First Nations people better just according to the treaties we signed to be able to access their land). But the gov't can and does run health care programs that work, and gov'ts around the world have working health care programs (and sure, none are perfect, but there's plenty that are functional). There's no moral reason, at the very least, that every CHILD in this country isn't completely covered. No matter if the parent is a crack whore lazy bum making poo art - that's never the child's fault, and this is our future here. These are the people we need to grow up and take care of our country and of us when we age. No child can adequately learn while sick, in pain, or hungry. There is no adequate argument for not covering every American child. Anyway. I'm disabled, and I have access to that "socialist" medical care. A few years ago my son had a run in with kidney disease that nearly took his life, and he ended up in the hospital 5 times in one year, once for almost a month. If I hadn't been this poor, if I'd been working poor with no insurance... we'd have had to choose how much treatment to get the boy vs how homeless we really wanted to make the family. That's not right. We can do better for our poor, and we can do better for our citizens than this.

• THIS story supports the need for universal healthcare? You're joking, right? She has a home -- presumably one she does not rent. She can sell her home if she needs health care. There is nothing wrong with renting. If she is poor, she can apply for state-based aid (like MedicAid); however, if you own the home you live in, you will not qualify for this aid (which might explain why she didn't have insurance). She has DOGS, for pity's sakes! She owns an 80-lb pet! Dogs require food and veterinary care. She has money for pets, but not for a doctor's bill? Obviously, she owns at least one firearm -- an item she can pawn/sell to pay for medical care. Does she pay for cable television? A cell phone? Does she own a car? All of these things can be sold, or discontinued, to obtain the money necessary to fund health care. Food bills can be pared down to finance important expenditures (e.g., cut the beer out completely, and so on). My mother taught me to SAVE money (you know, like putting it in a bank or something) for emergencies -- and I've been doing it since I got my first job at 15. So, don't give me this cr@p about paying for congenital idiots like this lady. If she cannot prioritize between her wants (e.g., homeownership, pets, firearms, etc.) and her needs (i.e., health care), then that is HER problem. Anyone who advocates for universal health care is, in my opinion, an immoral beast. Your advocacy will lead directly to saddling my infant son (and his generation) with massive debt, a lower standard of living, and confiscatory taxation. Why? So you can feel better about yourself, so that you can boast about your "progressiveness", your "compassion", your "concern" for the poor. You don't want to feel that you are "not doing enough", so you'll steal the bread out of my mouth, out of my kids' mouth, and out of the mouths of generations beyond his -- all so as to pay for your particular fetish today. What do you care if the nation implodes? You'll be long-gone, as will the beneficiary of your "compassion". Both of you will have milked the system: you for a self-esteem boost, and the beneficiary for "free" health care. The cost, the debt, that both of you accumulated (for different reasons) will be left behind to grow and be re-paid by our kids with the sweat of THEIR brows. You are pathetic.

• Bransmom, i agree. 25-30 yrs ago, the fee should have been fine. But in this day and age, there is no good way to put it. Doctors get screwed in billing. And some here in MA won't take state medical or medicare anymore. When a dr charges $75 for a office visit (nothing added on like meds or test or shots) and the state pays them $5 for the entire visit. I know this cause when i had state medical, i paid a monthly fee for it and saw all bills/payments recieved. And then there are the items medicare nor state medical will not pay for. As i don't have state (nor medicare) i have no prescription plan so have to pay full price. And when 1 of my meds (which i haven't been taking) cost me $175 a month, i do with out or my doctor will give me office samples to tide me over. So prescriptions are just as exepensive as going to a doctor. And i go every 3 months. No matter if i'm sick or not. I have ongoing issues that need to be monitored. The healthcare issue in the USA is a joke. our doctors offices are owned by out of country corporations. Or they are HMO's (which are out of country owners as well) And HMO's are the worst here in MA. They will not take emergency walk ins. So if you are sick, but not enought to go to hospital, you have to make an appointment to see the doctor. I love my doc. She will have me come in after hours and not charge me, or will have them squess me in and only charge me office visit. thank god i don't have HMO. My doctor is a PPO. A lot cheaper. And everything is there. Lab, xrays ect. they don't have doctors like mine anymore. Hope she never retires.

• &#64; alexa kim: you are absolutely correct on the creativity front. I hear that statement all the time about how our VP's are looking for new ways to stay in the red. We, like many other companies, haven't received a raise in 2 yrs. I agree on the insurance companies having issues, no doubt, I just think we aren't quite at the place yet where government can step in and in reality make the situation better. I truly believe Medicare pays what they pay because someone, somewhere made up this unbelievably crazy fee schedule that only benefits Medicare. It actually ends up screwing over a lot of the patients who have to pay higher out of pocket amounts and/or pay for supplemental coverage. It's very sad.

• &#64;Bransmom, no worries. You and @Angry Grandma talk about how little Medicare pays doctors. I've always wondered if that is because doctor's charge too much, padding everyone's bills in order to compensate for those who don't/can't pay, or if Medicare is just being stingy. I suspect that it's a bit of both. But medical care providers have had to be very creative in covering their shortfalls. BTW, insurance companies have a long and disgusting history of paying 'pennies on the dollar' on claims, ignoring claims, stalling on paying claims for months and years and dreaming up myriad and cruel ways of denying claims.

• &#64;Bransmom, I did read Angry Grandma's comment which indicates that she read your entire comment. I am taking it then that you are calling the woman who shot herself a dummy. Was it smart, not really. Was it a sign of desperation, yes. @KD, no, it does not suck. We're not perfect. Neither is Canada.

• Sorry- I was talking about the woman who shot herself. I don't enjoy insulting people who help me stretch my mind.

• &#64;Bransmom, when you open your comment with "What a dummy" and do not indicate who you are insulting, but clearly, you start with an insult, I stop reading the rest. Why should I? Are you here to add to the dialogue or not?

• Only in America would you have to shoot yourself to obtain healthcare. And you guys hate on Canadians becuz we have free healthcare? I've never once in my life had to wait to see a doctor, pay for medication or had to go without surgery becuz my insurance didn't cover it. Sucks to live in the "land of the free, home of the brave" huh?

• Bransmom: That's what my doctor says. She hates that they are only paid penny's on the dollar by medicaid. And upset that those who do have healthcare can't get what is needed all the time, because insurance companies refuse to cover the cost. Such as xrays (i dont have), blood work (i have to pay 65% before insure pays) and prescriptions. i have no prescription coverage. And i take a few medicines that are not genaric yet. So she will give me office samples and then half prescriptions so i don't spend to much. And if a new genaric comes out, she will call me personally and then change my script at drug store so that i am taken meds. Sometimes if i can't afford it, i will not refill script. And she knows this. Around my way, we have free clinics but they are only for certain people. such as, homeless or elderly or maternaty visits (only). Stuff like that. But our hospitals must treat everyone as long as it's an emergency. If she lived here, she could have gone to any hospital in MA and they would have to treat her. But as the story shows, it's not a emergency for a scheduled surgery. so she would still have that issue. But a ortho would have treated her with a honest payment plan.

• 1st of all John Smalls: I'm a democrat. But i DID NOT vote obama. And Alexa, you are correct about the insurance scum. I live in what is called TAXachusetts. And live very close to the "Insurance capitol of the USA" hartford CT. Our state government choose a couple of years ago to charge a fee for people who did not have health care. Meaning, if we have no healthcare or healthcare which isn't to their recommendations (different manitory requirments) we a) don't get out personal deduction on our state taxes. and b) we get fined on our taxes as well. example... i have medical insurance (100% self paid). but it's not in with what is required in MASS. Plus i have a high deductible (which state says is a nono)All it covers is dr visits and er visits and hospital stays for emergency's only. When i filed taxes this year, i was find $150 dollars for every month i "didn't" have insurance. So i was fined $450.00 for 3 months. And then fined $52 a month for 9 months of being underinsured ($468.00) This total is almost as much as i pay yearly for my insurance. Hence, MA says i should have gotten state medical, but i don't quailify cuz they say i make to much money! HA. So not sure if i'm going to like this new health law or for that matter, if the state of MA will allow it. I know our government is fighting a few other things that the federal government is trying to do. So unless i can see a "positive" to benefit the state of MA, i can see anyother year of paying finds for underinsurance. At Pete: that's good Pete. Shriner's burn hospital is 10 minutes from my house. Send them over!!!

• What a dummy. Some of your points make conversational sense, but as a healthcare worker who deals with insurance companies all day long, I have to say that atleast we get paid a fair price for services by the insurance carriers. Medicare pays 10 cents on the dollar. A digital mammogram that bills out at about $300, Medicare pays $15. As beneficial as that amount is to the government, I don't think we are ready for anymore government intervention unless they actually pay an adequate amount for care. I can't speak for other healthcare providers, but I know we give away millions of dollars in healthcare services every year. We also have a helping hand program which if you make less than a certain amount monthly you get free healthcare for 6 months. This woman had several options. No MD office will deny you coverage, any of them will arrange a payment plan as long as the patient shows intent to pay. There are also free clinics that are actually funded by other healthcare providers. This woman could have easily driven to South Bend where she could have rec'd free services including ortho care. I'm just saying, this lady wasn't using her whole deck. I don't like paying for insurance or medical services either, but until a solution is made that doesn't punish one economic group over another I think we need to continue working on it.

• Right on Pete. That trial telecast would eclipse all programming on network and cable, setting records that would stand for decades.

• Agreed, Alexa: "Insurance companies are the devil incarnate and should be run out of business." Interesting note: Health insurance is one thing the government does far better than private industry. Government insurance programs come it at about 10 percent administrative costs. Private insurers are nearing 30 percent. That means they're taking 20 cents of every dollar that could otherwise go to actual care. If I were the ruler of America -- it's a good thing I'm not -- I would have a show trial of insurance execs for Crimes Against the People. Their preordained punishment would be life as orderlies in a children's burn ward.

• I blame the democrats and Obama.

• You said it Alexa Kim!

• I forgot to add, that someone would go to such lengths to get medical care is not new. When people get desperate enough, and have no other options, they will resort to extreme measures. A citizen in her own country should not be forced to think of it. Remember when women would stick a hanger up inside themselves to induce an abortion? I actually don't believe in abortion, because I believe in due process and adoption. But I cite it as an example of what some people, who are otherwise quite decent, might do when they feel all alone and no one is offering to help them for the sake of helping them (without expecting a profit).

• If there were universal health care, then we could stop judging people on their wealth and just treat their ailments. I know that many people still fall for the lie that if we do that then health care will become more expensive for everyone. Mind you, they never provide proof of how that would be true. Unlike now, without universal health care, where medical costs ARE going up, HAVE BEEN going up for years, and have become abusive. Why? Because we ARE already PAYING for everyone's health care NOW, at gouging rates. Whenever a person without insurance goes to the ER, and they are charged Cadillac prices for care that would cost 1/3 less at a doctor's office, and they cannot pay the bill, the rest of us get their bill spread out onto our bills. With yet another percentage tacked on for good measure. The current, natural population could afford this more easily if we did not also have to pay the additional, unnaturally occurring costs of those imported, legally or illegally, into our system, who have not contributed into the system. They just showed up. Something has to change. Had the hard-core capitalists and inhumane insurance companies come up with an alternative first, then we would not have considered what they call the public option. But they wouldn't. Their greed would not allow them. So now we're moving ahead with a plan that I am at least willing to try. It is better than doing absolutely nothing. And there are plenty of countries that do universal health care quite well, though the wingnut right always ignores them and hold up instead the countries who appear to suck at it. Insurance companies are the devil incarnate and should be run out of business. It would be good riddance.

• You think she would have done a tiny bit of research before shooting herself, just to make sure that Emergency Rooms can fix the first problem.

• Who knows to put ice packs and pollows around your neck and head before you shoot yourself? I didn't. Then again, when i hear someone shot themselves, it isn't to get medical treatment. Wow. Talk about oxymoron.

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