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• I don't suggest we don't share our records with Mexico just because we don't feel like it. Rather I am acknowledging that Americans would not tolerate having our records shared with Mexico, so, let's skip the idea. I didn't ask if Canada hates immigrants. I asked if they get accused of it.

• America doesn't suck, Alexa. But you suggest that they should share their records, but we shouldn't share ours. Frankly, I don't know anything about record-sharing- does any country do this? I'm just saying we need to hold our own country to the same standards to which we hold Mexico. You can't fault someone for something you're also guilty of. I don't know that Canada does hate illegals, Alexa. I was talking about Americans going for a visit.

• I have never read or heard about Canada hating immigrants,but I'm sure some of it's citizens do-there are no perfect countries. The problem is-we don't control our borders,not in any logical way,and we don't have a coherent immigration policy. I think it was Reagan who granted immunity to illegal immigrants who were already here-I don't think the government even knows how many people were allowed to stay-possibly millions. I'm sure that provided an incentive for many people to cross the border in hopes of staying here. Wet foot/dry foot. I'm sure Cuba is a hard place to live in-but is it any worse than Haiti,or any other hell hole around the world? If we don't get it together-it's only going to get worse. The Mexican government has no incentive to do anything-it's working out ok for them.

• Ah yes. America sucks. Yet some more and because we aren't perfect, we are ineligible to point out how bad other countries are at controlling their criminals? Actually, it's exceedingly easy to criticize Mexico for everything it does and doesn't do that contributes to our problems. They criticize us all the time, even when it's none of their business. When they stop shipping us their criminals, opportunists and bona fide poor, while helping smuggle in God knows who, I'll cut 'em some slack. But the question remains unanswered: does Canada get accused of hating immigrants because they control their borders really well?

• What my statement should have implied is that I have seen Americans let someone with a criminal record attempt to enter Canada. We also give passports to sex offenders, so that they may roam the world at their leisure. It's difficult to criticize the Mexican government for letting criminals cross the border, when our government does the same thing. Here's a case where we let a sex offender travel to Mexico: http://siu.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/13/should-sex-offenders-get-u-s-passports/

• So does Canada get its chops busted for being so anti-immigrant, like we do?

• In my experience, Canadians are tougher about border control than Americans are. I've seen people make it through the American check point, only to be refused admittance by the Canadians.

• Which makes me want to ask: does Mexico share its arrest records with us? I think they don't and likely, they won't. Probably because if we want access to their records, they'd want access to ours. Yeah, no. I don't know about all land ports into Mexico, but of those I've personally been through, Mexico does not have a border presence on its side like we do. They don't have a border crossing. All the traffic control is done on our side alone. Mexico doesn't check anyone except at airports and maybe sea ports. I've been wondering why we don't have as many problems with the Canadian border. Partly, I'm gonna' guess, because Canada has a middle class, is not robbing its impoverished citizens to maintain a ruling wealthy class, and, well, they don't have a history of growing and using weed. At least, not like Mexico does.

• alexa kim: I hadn't thought of the language aspect- it was a solid addition. Personally, I tried to learn both French and Spanish and failed miserably at both. Although my motivation to do so was based upon meeting my HS requirements, rather than something as important as becoming a citizen.

• I believe the USA should have a "no crossing border if you have arrest record" like Canada does. I am sure that if dealers are crossing over, with/without drugs, they most likely have had run ins with the law in Mexico.

• Sharon: Mules are usually people who aren't directly tied to a cartel- it's inner-workings and such. They are often coerced or bribed into participation. But there are plenty of people in the distribution ring who willing drive huge amounts of drugs across the border. An example that comes to my mind is the sanitation truck that was found to hold pounds of weed hidden in a tank full of human waste. Anyone in a distribution ring is a dealer- how important of a dealer is probably determined by the amount of drugs they move and their closeness to the original source of the drugs. I think MCV was saying that the person who is original source of the drugs is probably not going to cross the border. I would bet that this is correct, in the majority of cases.

• Oh hey Sharon, yes, those who just carry them over, for a flat fee, are the mules. But drug dealers cross back and forth all the time. No worries, they don't have any drugs on them, the mules do. Criminal capitalism, it should bring a tear of pride to the eye of every Fannie Mae, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers and Citibank CEO out there.

• @ccccc, it was your suggestion and I fully concur. Where we differ, though, is it is my condition that they cannot become citizens if there are here already illegally. They don't get rewarded with the right to vote here (they can keep their right to vote in their country). I know how difficult it is learn another language without any help at all; my mother had to do it.

• I think the ones that cross the borders with the drugs are called "mules"....but I could be wrong.

• Why wouldn't Mexican drug dealers cross the border? Of course they do. And they are getting younger and younger, just like American drug dealers. Same with coyotes.

• Alexa: "They must take American civic classes and become fluent in English. Classes must be from a certified school, price capped and flexibly scheduled." I LOVE this idea. It can be very difficult to learn a foreign language, especially on your own. I actually think new citizens would appreciate the help with such an undertaking.

• MCV: Not sure who that comment was intended for, but let me try to clarify things a little. While a big-time supplier (drug-dealer) probably won't cross the border, he will depend on another individual(s) to deliver the drugs. The delivery dude makes the transaction, which makes him a drug dealer. The person who buys the large quantity of drugs then distributes the drugs thereby making him a drug dealer, to smaller drug dealers. Anyone in this entire chain of drug transactions is a dealer, as they are selling drugs. For example, recently in Pickerington, OH, 1200 lbs of pot was seized. They tied the distribution ring to a Mexican drug cartel. Common sense should tell us that one person did not plan to sell 1200 lbs of baggies out of his house. No, this dealer was going to sell pounds to other dealers who, in turn, sell ounces to even smaller dealers, and so on. And it all goes back to one head-honcho in Mexico. Legalize it. Eliminate their market. http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/07/20/story-pickerington-pot-bust.html?sid=102

• The drug dealers aren't the ones crossing the border, you half-wit.

• Sounds like my kind of woman/mother!!!! Kudos to your mom! I talk about how MA is. And we have a bunch of crap that on here just like everywhere else. But to give you an really good idea of how the mentally is here (not me mind you) 20+ yrs ago. My daughter went to PR with her godmother. She was 8. they spend a wk there with the godmother's family. and i am not sure i remember exactly where, only that it wasn't a tourist area! Anyways, when they came back there was a lot of pictures. I was given an album for my daughter as a present. While going through these pictures i came across one that took my breath away. My daughter was standing next to a huge sign that said " Want money? food stamps? Free medical? Free housing? Free schooling for your kids? All kinds of free perks of living? Not have to actually work for money? Then pack up the kids and move to lovely Holyoke Massachusttes! the best state in the United States that will paying you to live there!" I thought it was a joke. but my friend said that this sign had been up when she went over the year before! so i took the picture (and i don't live in Holyoke, i live a town over) and went down to the newspaper. I started talking to a person who looked at the photo and asked me to hang on. Him and another man (the editor i found out after) came out and took me into a room and we talked. I told them i couldn't understand why someone would put this up. We we already getting a lot of Spanish in our towns and i just thought they were moving here from other states or the other side of MA. Well, long story short: A few weeks go by, and i'm called on the phone to arrange a meeting with me. I was offered money for the picture and the rights (because my daughter was in it). I accepted but asked for the return of the original picture (which is stil have) Then the paper sent someone over there and got another copy of it. Seems the city of holyoke (then was a town)government/mayor approved this sign being put up so that they could build the city up with people who would need state care, which gave them all kinds of perks! The rest of the sign (almost a bill board just close to the ground) actually had on it, the endorsement from the mayor, councilmen and a couple of senate members. So when the paper broke this story, all hell came! The town was investigated for all kinds of crap. Lots of people lost their jobs. The mayor was fired. Oh it was chaos. But bottomline, with no more tax breaks, a lot of companies closed their doors and left the area. it was the place to go for jobs prior to 1990. tons of paper factories. Jobs were all over the place! It was a hard 5 yrs. A lot of fires where the tenetments were burned down so people were giving emergency housing over people on the lists. They left Holyoke and spread to other cities and towns. My town's population rose to over 300K in 5 yrs. we had to reopen closed schools, open stores. So you would think more jobs? Nope. Then the gangs moved in. Then drugs ran rapid thru our city. Our police went from 40 officers to over 300 in this 5 yr period. Taxes were raised ect. All of this from a sign in Puerto Rico! Our state welfare had to undergo major reforms and now we have almost the hardest welfare program in New England. Now, i have no problem with anyone if you are willing to work, like me for what you get. But what happened was bad.

• We have a family friend from mexico that became a legal citizen in less than two years-he was very diligent and was a success as was his family members and he has quite a few. I am not sure of all the steps they had to take but they did it. They are wonderful people, hold good jobs and take care of their own. Immigration is a good thing when done legally.

• @ccccc, then we have a point where we can compromise. I'm willing to let certain persons here illegally to remain and to receive legal documents to permit it, renewable at suitable intervals. They cannot chain sponsor others to join them. They must have clean criminal and health records. All sanctuary cities immediately officially announce they are no longer a sanctuary city and will never designate themselves as such again. All law enforcement agencies are not only permitted, but ordered, to enforce all laws on the books. Regardless of the citizenship of the suspect. Special Order 40 must be immediately rescinded and never allowed again (in LA and any equivalents elsewhere). The legalized persons agree to forfeit without legal challenge any and all benefits accrued by their work under false pretenses. They must take American civic classes and become fluent in English. Classes must be from a certified school, price capped and flexibly scheduled. They must specifically agree to never break the laws of the land, for they have broken enough already. They agree that the moment they break a law, aside from a minor traffic violation, they will be deported and never allowed back. And they may never become citizens.

• I'm pretty sure that the '96 law I've been referring to is called IIRIRA-96. I believe the portion that specifically applies to illegals & benefits is covered here: http://www.takatalaw.com/us/iract96.html

• angry grandma: I do get your point and I understand why you're pissed. My mom worked full-time with 2 children to care for. We couldn't make ends meet, but she couldn't qualify for assistance because she made just enough to be too much money. Ironically, if she had no work ethic, we'd have received some sort of help.

• "As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007 report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public "welfare" benefits -- ever." http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2008/01/post_80.html

• CCCCC, not doubting you at all. Like i said, MA thinks it's is it's own country. The government here is very bad. Which is why i became involved in city government a few years ago. I actually ran for alderwoman but lost out to a man who is more crooked then a winding road! But i still go to all meetings and am very active in my community (more in my nieghborhood area). I am not sure it the information i read was for either illegal or non illegal. Just pissed me off ok? As you can see, my daughter is stuggling. But can't make bills unless i help. I buy all clothes ect for the kids. Because the State of MA dept of social services would remove them in the blink of an eye. (but not the ones whos moms are drug addicts or abusers --- again differnt rant) I am in agreement that if ANY person comes to the USA and works hard. Cares for their family in honest ways.And provides what they can for themseves. And they fight to become citizens, they should reap the benefits of a citizen, including voting. hard work never killed anyone. And a will to better themself is better to understand then to see someone lazing around, living off the state taz payers, popping out kid after kid... Well you get my point.

• @A'Grandma, persons of questionable citizenship are persons without documents proving their citizenship of any country. If they are here legally, then they have legal documents, such as a green card. Their citizenship (of Mexico, China, etc.) is plainly stated on it, at a minimum.

• alexa kim: Their right to vote has no bearing on the feelings I've expressed here, but I can't speak for others who feel similarly. I can even get behind requiring new citizens to take classes so that they might better understand our government and it's processes before extending them the right to vote. As long as those classes are offered at reasonable times and at a reasonable cost.

• angry grandma: Don't be sorry about a thing! You just might end up teaching me something, and I am always happy for new info. All I have read on the subject refers to a 1996 law barring illegals from collecting benefits. I'm wondering if the wording on the paperwork you're talking about applies to people whose citizenship is in question because they're legally allowed to be here, but not a citizen. Questionable citizenship doesn't necessarily mean illegal. My boss has been here for almost 2 decades legally, but is not a citizen. She owns 2 houses and 2 businesses. I haven't a clue how that works, but it is what it is. I will look into this further though, and I'll attempt to locate the '96 law I keep referencing.

• @HyenaKiller, Do you think that those who present themselves as so much more compassionate than those who value law and order would be nearly as interested in the lowly bracero or farm laborer if they knew the now legally resident alien still could not cast a vote for their side in 2012? Because if I am willing to compromise my position to allow for the humanitarian legalizing of persons here, so they may work without exploitation, however, less citizenship (the right to vote), it should not matter to those arguing on their behalf-- right? Let's see....

• I wasn't aware of the #'s they are issued. Not sure of other states, but here in MA. They can qualify for all welfare benefits (including state run housing) as long as they have children (family units). I know this for a fact. I recently had to apply for state assistance with medical insurance. (long story short- my ins isn't to MA standards. So i get penalize at tax time. I lose my personel exemption and charged $50-$75 for every month i did not have MCCO insurance.) Anyways, on the application it said right on there: For illegal immagrants or any person who is not a citizen, please provide proof of requirements under MA Gen law XXX.XX (don't have it in front of me. Already mailed it in) The list of requirements are as follows (as i remember) birth certificate for all in family unit. copies of visas or Identifaction number copies of employment records copies of rental leases copies of doctors record for all children under age 18. The last page where you sign, it says that "persons who's citizenship is in question, will be provided with TAFDC Payments, Food Stamps and Medical insurance as long as the family unit has established residence and provided required documentation" I honestly did not know this until i saw it with my own eyes. I have been told many times over that they couldn't get federal benefits. But these are STATE benefits and the state makes the laws. Our foodstamps is controlled by the state here not the federal. Believe me, MA thinks that it's a state in it's own country. Our tax laws here haven't been updated since 1995. So i'm sorry. I prefer to help or assist (with taxes) some of our homeless families living in hotels/motels (not deadbeats!) or to help someone who is working but struggling with basic needs for their family, then to have my taxes being used to provide for illegal immagrants and their families, when others have no medical insurance, or bare minimum medical, not enough food to feed their kids, or who have to decide if a bill gets paid or figure out a way to buy food at a discount food store to make a meal. it's a catch 22 and i see no way to resolve it. Our unemployment rate in MA was at 11.3% 2 yrs ago. As of May of this year it's down to 9.6%. All cash benefits for welfare is limited to 2 yrs from day you are accepted. if you have a child while on welfare, this child will not be included in your cash benefits. medical is reviewed yearly. And food stamps depends on your income. example: For a family of 6, you get $800 in food stamps. You pay $25 a month for insurance premiums thru the state. because you work 20 hours a week part time summer job, your husband is on unemployment (150 weekly) you are not eliglible for cash benefits. You are unable to get any type of housing because the lists are so long and have been closed for 10 yrs now. You do get a "cut" on your utilities, which is lower rates. You get a flat amount for winter fuel assistance ( i think it's %745 for the season) And yes, i state these as an example, My daughter is the facts behind these stats. I am sorry for the length of this. I tried to condense this further then i had already.

• Angry Grandma: The first part of your story definitely illustrates some of what I'm trying to say. As far as the second part though, I think I should clarify a few things. Many illegals do, in fact, pay into taxes and SS. They are issued a # rather than a SS # specifically for this purpose. Yet- you are correct- they may not collect SS. They are also (since 1996) unable to collect welfare benefits. They are only entitled to medical care and their children have access to our educational system. While this does cost our country money, the cost is certainly offset, in part, by the taxes they pay and programs they pay into but are not allowed to benefit from.

• @CCCCC Good argument. I read the article in your link-very interesting. I can see all kinds of problems with the Bill however. I can see the government messing it up,I can see criminals taking advantage of the opportunity to come here and simply disappear,I can see the honest workers being exploited. Something has to be done that's for sure,because what happening now is not working.

• Kudos CCCCC. As much as i'm against illegals in our country, When others are attempting to gain entrance with legal actions and are unable to. My ex and his family came here illegally in 1967. And were promptly returned to Cuba. This was before Wet foot/dry Foot!. A yr later they were granted entry legally. it took them 15 yrs to become citizens. Between paperwork, lawyers, citizenship classes, and missed mail. Once they all became citizens, things changed for them. As they were here on visas, they were also under political reason (they needed a "safe harbor" from Castro's Cuban Mafia), and this held up the paperwork as well. anyways, they worked and paid into taxes and SS. When the father became disabled, he was unable to recieved any of the benefits that he had worked and pd into. Upon citizenship, their lawyer, fought for SS disablity for him. he was granted it but it was not retro to the day he first applied. It was retroed to the day he became a citizen. The reason i offer this story, is that even those these illegals work on farms and whatever lowest paid jobs to make whatever they can. They are not paying taxes or SS and are not entitled to any of these benefits. But, they do recieve welfare, food stamps and medical insurance. How can this be fair to those of us, who work as hard and pay out what we have to to the government, but some of us are without jobs, food, shelter and some don't even qualify for benefits. That isn't right. and i'm not just talking about mexican's. I'm talking all who come here illegaly. And there are a lot from other countries. Some who come here on school visas and "disappear" or those that are here on tourist visas and "disappear". This happens a lot and again, isn't fair to the rest of the USA. If they are here and working, they should have to pay the government it's due, whether any of us think the government is wrong or not. We don't pay, we go to jail. Again, not fair that my tax money is going to welfare, foodstamps, and medical benefits for illegal families, when american born families are doing without. And i'm talking about the families that are down on their luck and not deadbeats, which there are a lot of those as well. But that's a different story and i wont get into it here because it has nothing to do with Illegals. There isn't any fairness to that.

• While I apologize for the lengthiness of that last comment, I don't know if I could have shortened it.

• diamondgirl9: Part of my problem with the illegal situation stems from the fact that it is easier for some to become legal than others. I have pored through one internet site after another trying to nail down the average amount of time and money it takes to become a citizen. It's damn-near impossible (in fact, if anyone has this info from a credible source, please educate me). I have come across a wide variety of #'s for the amount of time involved- anywhere from 2 to 15 years (although 15 seems excessive). When I try to nail down the costs associated with such an undertaking, all I come up with are lawyers charging exorbitant fees to help you through the paperwork, which has nothing to do with the direct cost of becoming a citizen. Some desperate people have neither the time or money to wait for a legal means- they need an immediate solution. I cannot fault people for doing what I would do in their stead. If I were afraid where I lived, were destitute, or had dependents in those circumstances, I would do anything in my power to make life good for myself & those who needed me- even if that meant breaking the law. In addition, I read a very interesting article recently that points out how many illegals are supporting our agricultural economy. According to the article, who cited information obtained from the Department of Agriculture, there are nearly one million farm workers in the United States. "According to the Migrant Farm Worker Justice Project, 85% of farm workers are immigrants -- and up to 70% of them are illegal." These are thankless jobs held by hard-working folks. I just mentioned of the million farm-oriented jobs in the US, 70 percent are held by illegals. This is NOT to say, however, that illegals have stolen those jobs from Americans. The United Farm Workers union has been trying unsuccessfully to fill these jobs with Americans through a relatively new campaign called "Take Our Jobs." Through its web site, at www.takeourjobs.org, the union has posted an online application for Americans who want to work on a farm, promising to connect applicants with farm jobs in their area. Since June 24, at least 4,000 people have responded to the application, but only a few dozen have really followed through with the process. I actually favor a solution mentioned in the same article to which I've been referring, which offers citizenship through the AgJobs bill currently held up in Congress. The bill would grant temporary legal status to immigrants, which would become permanent if they continue to work on farms for a specific period of time. This allows citizenship for proven working-folks, and gives nothing to criminals. http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/07/news/economy/farm_worker_jobs/?iref=NS1

• I am against illegal immigration precisely because it is illegal. I don't think anyone should be rewarded for breaking the law. What about the people who are trying to enter the country legally? It is not fair that they follow the immigration laws,and often wait years for citizenship,and some people just break in. I read somewhere that Mexico has very strict immigration laws-yet they do nothing about their citizens breaking our laws. I can see why people would want to come here-there are very few jobs there and the pay is extremely low. There is the violence that comes with drug smuggling and gangs-but that is something the Mexican government should be trying to correct. Their job should be to try to build up their economy,and work to protect their citizens. I also feel that if you are in the country illegally,your children should not be citizens because they were born here. If you are here illegally,why should you be rewarded with automatic citizenship for your child?

• If they're bringing the same mentality, Hyena, awesome. Because that means that we'll be benefiting from the bravery of people like the officers that died tending to a fallen comrade, or the paramedics desperately trying to save his life. Some of the above statistics aren't particularly useful when assessing the criminal impact of illegals. Forgery, fraud, criminal impersonation, false ID, and human smuggling are all things one can be charged with simply for being here. Being here does not register high on what I find offensive, as a lot of illegals are here to work and to find a better life for themselves &/or loved ones. The remaining bulk of crimes you mention (excluding dui) are likely directly related to drug activity: manufacture, sale, transport, kidnapping, violent crimes, and some property crimes. We don't have drug-related problems because of illegals. We have these problems because our war on drugs has created a black market. In addition, we share a long border with a nation of some economically deprived people, creating the perfect opportunity for the criminal-minded to sell us our illegal goodies. Legalize drugs and the violently criminal element is severely reduced. Would we judge a whole population of Americans based upon the actions of some amongst them? I realize you didn't say this, but suggesting that illegals are the cause of drugs and violence is the same as suggesting that poor American people are the cause of drugs and violence in the inner-city. I think we're all aware that poverty in itself doesn't make anyone one criminal, but it does give the criminally-minded the perfect motivation to ply their wares & defend their turf. I don't think we have a people problem- illegals are not inherently bad, by and large. We have a policy problem.

• lol, you guys... And when they sneak in, what pray tell do you suppose they will bring with them? They will bring this same menatality and criminal activity with them. On October 2nd, the Maricopa County, Arizona District Attorney's office released crime statistics that prove this point. Overall, while illegals represent only nine percent of the population in Maricopa County (which includes Phoenix) they are responsible for approximately 22% of the crimes committed. Here is a breakdown of statistics by crime category. Illegal aliens account for: · 33.5% of those sentenced for manufacture, sale or transport of drugs. · 35.8% of those sentenced for kidnapping. · 20.3% of those sentenced for felony DUI. · 16.5% of those sentenced for violent crimes. · 18.5% of those sentenced for property crimes. · 44% of those sentenced for forgery and fraud. · 85.3% of those convicted of criminal impersonation or false ID. · 96% of those convicted of human smuggling. http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/05/06/reuters-other-msm-liars-illegal-immigration-situation-in-az-not-as-dire-as-brewer-claims/

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